John Carmack
id Software | Lead Programmer | Feb 22, 2001, 22:54:35 (ET) |

Name: John Carmack
Description: Programmer
Feb 22, 2001
I just got back from Tokyo, where I demonstrated our new engine
running under MacOS-X with a GeForce 3 card. We had quite a bit of
discussion about whether we should be showing anything at all,
considering how far away we are from having a title on the shelves, so
we probably aren't going to be showing it anywhere else for quite
a while.

We do run a bit better on a high end wintel system, but the Apple
performance is still quite good, especially considering the short amount
of time that the drivers had before the event.

It is still our intention to have a simultaneous release of the next
product on Windows, MacOS-X, and Linux.

Here is a dump on the GeForce 3 that I have been seriously working
with for a few weeks now:

The short answer is that the GeForce 3 is fantastic. I haven't had such an
impression of raising the performance bar since the Voodoo 2 came out, and
there are a ton of new features for programmers to play with.

Graphics programmers should run out and get one at the earliest possible
time. For consumers, it will be a tougher call. There aren't any
applications our right now that take proper advantage of it, but you should
still be quite a bit faster at everything than GF2, especially with
anti-aliasing. Balance that against whatever the price turns out to be.

While the Radeon is a good effort in many ways, it has enough shortfalls
that I still generally call the GeForce 2 ultra the best card you can buy
right now, so Nvidia is basically dethroning their own product.

It is somewhat unfortunate that it is labeled GeForce 3, because GeForce
2 was just a speed bump of GeForce, while GF3 is a major architectural
change. I wish they had called the GF2 something else.

The things that are good about it:

Lots of values have additional internal precision, like texture coordinates
and rasterization coordinates. There are only a few places where this
matters, but it is nice to be cleaning up. Rasterization precision is about
the last thing that the multi-thousand dollar workstation boards still do
any better than the consumer cards.

Adding more texture units and more register combiners is an obvious
evolutionary step.

An interesting technical aside: when I first changed something I was
doing with five single or dual texture passes on a GF to something that
only took two quad texture passes on a GF3, I got a surprisingly modest
speedup. It turned out that the texture filtering and bandwidth was the
dominant factor, not the frame buffer traffic that was saved with more
texture units. When I turned off anisotropic filtering and used
compressed textures, the GF3 version became twice as fast.

The 8x anisotropic filtering looks really nice, but it has a 30%+ speed
cost. For existing games where you have speed to burn, it is probably a
nice thing to force on, but it is a bit much for me to enable on the current
project. Radeon supports 16x aniso at a smaller speed cost, but not in
conjunction with trilinear, and something is broken in the chip that
makes the filtering jump around with triangular rasterization

The depth buffer optimizations are similar to what the Radeon provides,
giving almost everything some measure of speedup, and larger ones
available in some cases with some redesign.

3D textures are implemented with the full, complete generality. Radeon
offers 3D textures, but without mip mapping and in a non-orthogonal
manner (taking up two texture units).

Vertex programs are probably the most radical new feature, and, unlike
most "radical new features", actually turn out to be pretty damn good.
The instruction language is clear and obvious, with wonderful features
like free arbitrary swizzle and negate on each operand, and the obvious
things you want for graphics like dot product instructions.

The vertex program instructions are what SSE should have been.

A complex setup for a four-texture rendering pass is way easier to
understand with a vertex program than with a ton of texgen/texture
matrix calls, and it lets you do things that you just couldn't do hardware
accelerated at all before. Changing the model from fixed function data
like normals, colors, and texcoords to generalized attributes is very
important for future progress.

Here, I think Microsoft and DX8 are providing a very good benefit by
forcing a single vertex program interface down all the hardware
vendor's throats.

This one is truly stunning: the drivers just worked for all the new
features that I tried. I have tested a lot of pre-production 3D cards, and it
has never been this smooth.

The things that are indifferent:

I'm still not a big believer in hardware accelerated curve tessellation.
I'm not going to go over all the reasons again, but I would have rather
seen the features left off and ended up with a cheaper part.

The shadow map support is good to get in, but I am still unconvinced
that a fully general engine can be produced with acceptable quality using
shadow maps for point lights. I spent a while working with shadow
buffers last year, and I couldn't get satisfactory results. I will revisit
that work now that I have GeForce 3 cards, and directly compare it with my
current approach.

At high triangle rates, the index bandwidth can get to be a significant
thing. Other cards that allow static index buffers as well as static vertex
buffers will have situations where they provide higher application speed.
Still, we do get great throughput on the GF3 using vertex array range
and glDrawElements.

The things that are bad about it:

Vertex programs aren't invariant with the fixed function geometry paths.
That means that you can't mix vertex program passes with normal
passes in a multipass algorithm. This is annoying, and shouldn't have

Now we come to the pixel shaders, where I have the most serious issues.
I can just ignore this most of the time, but the way the pixel shader
functionality turned out is painfully limited, and not what it should have

DX8 tries to pretend that pixel shaders live on hardware that is a lot
more general than the reality.

Nvidia's OpenGL extensions expose things much more the way they
actually are: the existing register combiners functionality extended to
eight stages with a couple tweaks, and the texture lookup engine is
configurable to interact between textures in a list of specific ways.

I'm sure it started out as a better design, but it apparently got cut and cut
until it really looks like the old BumpEnvMap feature writ large: it does
a few specific special effects that were deemed important, at the expense
of a properly general solution.

Yes, it does full bumpy cubic environment mapping, but you still can't
just do some math ops and look the result up in a texture. I was
disappointed on this count with the Radeon as well, which was just
slightly too hardwired to the DX BumpEnvMap capabilities to allow
more general dependent texture use.

Enshrining the capabilities of this mess in DX8 sucks. Other companies
had potentially better approaches, but they are now forced to dumb them
down to the level of the GF3 for the sake of compatibility. Hopefully
we can still see some of the extra flexibility in OpenGL extensions.

The future:

I think things are going to really clean up in the next couple years. All
of my advocacy is focused on making sure that there will be a
completely clean and flexible interface for me to target in the engine
after DOOM, and I think it is going to happen.

The market may have shrunk to just ATI and Nvidia as significant
players. Matrox, 3D labs, or one of the dormant companies may surprise
us all, but the pace is pretty frantic.

I think I would be a little more comfortable if there was a third major
player competing, but I can't fault Nvidia's path to success.
id Software...
Timothee Besset 2007/02/02
Christian Antkow 2005/09/08
Kenneth Scott 2005/07/18
John Carmack 2005/01/02
Fred Nilsson 2004/11/08
Todd Hollenshead 2004/11/04
Robert Duffy 2004/10/15
Tim Willits 2003/09/10
Graeme Devine 2003/07/03
Jim Dose 2002/08/19
Kevin Cloud 2002/04/16
Andy Chang 2002/03/14
Matt Hooper 2002/03/14
Paul Jaquays 2002/03/08
Seneca Menard 2002/02/15
Brandon James 2002/02/15
Eric Webb 2001/08/01
Mal Blackwell 2001/02/01
John Cash 2000/03/31
Dave Kirsch 2000/03/24
Brian Hook 1999/06/01
Katherine Anna Kang 1999/03/04
Paul Steed 1998/12/29

Also Today...


Full list

Visit Webdog today!


Square Eight - Taking over the world and you don't even know it yet! Copyright © Square Eight 1998-2024. All Rights Reserved.
The BlueTracker is provided by Webdog.
We are not responsible for the content of the .plans displayed here.