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General Discussion > Star Wars Spoiler Thread
 
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25. No subject Dec 19, 2017, 07:30 RedEye9
 

It did not take long for this to become a Slick derailment thread.
 
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24. Re: A.Weishaupt@gmx.at Dec 19, 2017, 05:35 Slick
 
El Pit wrote on Dec 19, 2017, 03:14:
There is only one way left they can save this: a Dallas cop out. The very final scene of episode IX (after fading to black after whatever stupid final the Mousepire and its servants can come up with) should be Luke waking up in his bed. In the Jedi temple he built and where he is training the new padawans. And then Luke smiles and says: "What a stupid dream". Start the credits.

There, Darth Diznee. This is your final chance to save Star Wars. Do it. Redeem yourself. It would prove that there is still something good in you. Don't let Luke and the fans down now.

I'd love to get your feel for Episode 7 then, if this is how you feel about Episode 8.

I don't really know what all these people thought should have happened that wouldn't have been utter fan service:

- shocking discovery about character's lineage!
- good guys saving the day in predictable way!

etc.

I can't tell you how nice it was to be surprised with parts of EP. 8. It's honestly the closest I'll ever feel to being able to watch the original trilogy for the first time in the theatres, when it was all still so weird, and not adopted into popular culture. Fucking puppet yoda and Ewoks, the dog-person that follows Han around, force choking, all of that nonsense shit that we just take for granted now.

I feel that there's some mystery left in the SW universe that isn't just a stock tale about stock heroes going through the heroic motions to overcome evil.

And I can't see how any of that shit would have made EP 8 in particular a better movie.

The shit people are complaining about is surreal.

The same people who bitched about how EP. 7 was nothing but pure fan-service flashback "member berries" and undiluted nostalgia, EP 8 manages to cut away from all of that shit. But they're even more angry now.

I'd LOVE to hear what EP. 8 SHOULD have been. I've seen a few examples of this, and they're each more boring than the last...
 
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23. A.Weishaupt@gmx.at Dec 19, 2017, 03:14 El Pit
 
There is only one way left they can save this: a Dallas cop out. The very final scene of episode IX (after fading to black after whatever stupid final the Mousepire and its servants can come up with) should be Luke waking up in his bed. In the Jedi temple he built and where he is training the new padawans. And then Luke smiles and says: "What a stupid dream". Start the credits.

There, Darth Diznee. This is your final chance to save Star Wars. Do it. Redeem yourself. It would prove that there is still something good in you. Don't let Luke and the fans down now.
 
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22. No subject Dec 18, 2017, 09:43 RedEye9
 
This sealed the fate, future SW movies won't have to get any better  
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21. No subject Dec 18, 2017, 03:57 Slick
 
I'm sure a film snob could outdo me here, but I think the central question is "WHO IS REY". Rey and her powers, where she wants to go, discovering her past etc. The 3 act structure I believe revolves around her development.

Act I "Who are you?"- Luke "I'm nobody" - Rey

Act II "Can you tell me who my parents are?" - Rey

Act III "I'm actually nobody, but I'm okay with that, and will forge my own future" -Rey

Something like that.

The Rebels escaping the First Order is just a vehicle for the rest of the development happening. You could fold the central question into what Rey is going to do regarding the First Order, and the Rebellion. Where her allegiances lie, what side she will chose after seeing her hero being a reclusive old bat. Really it's about her self-discovery. But it's very much an inward journey rather than seeing answers outside. And perhaps that is the most important lesson Luke teaches her, about what the Force actually is. It lets her start to use her own confidence to find herself.

Or something, who the fuck knows. Most characters have pretty solid arcs, but even though Rey doesn't really participate in much of the "main" sequence of the Rebels escaping the FO, I think her story is central. Even after losing like 95% of the Resistance, Leia says: "We have everything we need."

OH also, something from the battlefront game, the new SP DLC has you stealing the plans for a Dreadnaught, the first time they're seen. I played it a day before the movie came out, pretty cool. ALSO, they mention a couple times that even though their numbers are thin, they have "friends in the outer rim", which was parroted in the movie at least once, i think twice. So this has to be the main thrust of Ep. IX. To see the good guys come back from near-annihalation with friends will be nice to see. Along with a generous helping of growth and learning from past mistakes. It's almost more of a "Star Trek" message of hope than Star Wars. (runs for hills).

Also, I wasn't feeling GotG2 as much as the original, which was very tight. Still good movies, but the only good development in GotG2 was between the sisters. I somehow didn't care for Star Lord's daddy issues at all.
 
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20. No subject Dec 18, 2017, 03:31 jdreyer
 
Slick wrote on Dec 17, 2017, 23:38:
Also, I liked the Casino planet. The way the plot is structured, there's an evacuation from the Rebellion planet at the beginning, and they finish at Crait at the end. Other than Luke's planet side-quest, there was no real places to visit to break up the visual storytelling form a production standpoint, unless they discovered a dusty holodeck onboard.

It was silly, but I think that was more a problem with the pacing of that whole planet. If there were just 2-3 more minutes of a slower pace before the sillyness it would have landed better. Not much, but just enough to make it not feel that we were just getting pushed through all of it too quickly for it to feel anything but inconsequential. Even though it all turned out to be inconsequential.

That quote you found JD is very good. It's all about heroes failing. What was that Yoda line? "pass along everything to those you teach, especially your failings" or something to that effect... I know I butchered that line.

That's right! "Failure, the best teacher, is," Yoda told Luke right after he nukes the Jedi tree. I had forgotten that.

I've been thinking about the original trilogy and how they were structured. They had a very traditional three-act structure, with each act in a different location and clearly delineated. I feel this movie (TLJ) has more of a one-act structure, but with significant side plots. It's a bit odd, plot-wise:
Act 1: escape from First Order in space
Act 2: escape from First Order in space
Act 3: escape from First Order on planet
That might explain the need for the gambling planet. As I mentioned earlier, you could remove all of Finn and Rose from the movie, and it would have no effect on plot or outcome. And I say that as someone that likes the characters and thought they had good chemistry. They are just superfluous.

We rewatched GotG2 today, and although it's not as good as 1, my 10 yr old son declared: GotG is the new Star Wars. Hard to argue that with both entries being in the same vein as SW (rompy sci fi adventures) but also being superior in most aspects: better pacing, more likeable and unique characters, great team chemistry, fantastic world building, great combination of humor and action, etc.

One last thing: when the Deadpool guys were making that movie, they were constantly asking themselves: "Does this make sense? Or will the Honest Trailers guys rip us to shreds?" While I don't think that should be a major guiding principle for a movie, the director and producer should be asking that question from time to time. In TLJ, they didn't ask it enough, and the Honest Trailers guys are really going to tear this movie a new one. It will be interesting to see if they go easy on them, like they did with Pacific Rim. They ripped up PR while also calling it totally awesome.
 
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19. No subject Dec 17, 2017, 23:38 Slick
 
Also, I liked the Casino planet. The way the plot is structured, there's an evacuation from the Rebellion planet at the beginning, and they finish at Crait at the end. Other than Luke's planet side-quest, there was no real places to visit to break up the visual storytelling form a production standpoint, unless they discovered a dusty holodeck onboard.

It was silly, but I think that was more a problem with the pacing of that whole planet. If there were just 2-3 more minutes of a slower pace before the sillyness it would have landed better. Not much, but just enough to make it not feel that we were just getting pushed through all of it too quickly for it to feel anything but inconsequential. Even though it all turned out to be inconsequential.

That quote you found JD is very good. It's all about heroes failing. What was that Yoda line? "pass along everything to those you teach, especially your failings" or something to that effect... I know I butchered that line.
 
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18. No subject Dec 17, 2017, 23:34 Slick
 
I heard this elsewhere, but I think it has weight: That the "stable urchins" were hamstrung in there just so they could have that memorable closing shot of one of them using the force to sweep, then holding the stick like a lightsaber. I have to admit that I was a bit miffed as to why they were there mid-way through the movie, mostly bad flashbacks to small children, pod-racing etc. But it makes sense to tee up that final shot (or one of the final shots, can't remember). It's a fundamental shift from thinking that only people have to have the right genetics get to be heroes, without even touching the abonination that midichlorians were. This breaks the cycle of the saga, always caring about heridity, who the fuck cares! If I want space opera I'll watch Star Trek  
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17. No subject Dec 17, 2017, 20:49 Pigeon
 
Just watched it this afternoon and quite I enjoyed it, but didn't love it. It's strengths were much like TFA's, good likeable characters struggling with believable emotions, and for the most part, motivations. Mark's performance wavered between great and 'oh crap I forgot I'm not voice acting'. I know some people didn't like how Finn acted, but I've always felt he's just a big derp, so him temporarily losing the emotional sense of urgency seems fitting.

The plot was a train wreck, and the space battles less than epic. I can't help but feel the subordinate officers' quips were aimed at calling attention to how awful the battles were. I mean one of the guys pointed out how they should have sent out fighters 5 minutes ago, aka as soon as an enemy fighter approached them.

And yes as so many of you aptly call it the OJ chase scene has to be the worst plot point of all the movies. SO much WTF about all of that.

Snoke's death has grown on me, I think my initial disappointment was simply because I wanted to know more about the character, but I'm good with the ole hubris kills end. And when I think about it, how interesting was Darth Hefner actually going to be? If you don't want to get killed like a bitch maybe you should change out of your bathrobe and slippers.

And finally what the hell was with the little stable urchins? I seriously felt like a digitally rendered Michael Jackson was going to jump out and start singing Smooth Criminal.
 
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16. Saw it on Friday in TCL Chinese theatre... Dec 17, 2017, 20:23 Ant
 
The flick was decent, but I think TFA was better and not good as the original trilogy but better than the prequels. I had to run to pee during slow parts (before the gambling scene and with BB-8 droid being kicked out, and Luke returning and being shock by an AT AT Walker) didn't miss much apparently from my friends -- good -- will rewatch it again to see again for episode 9 in a couple years).  
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15. Kotaku comment Dec 17, 2017, 13:38 jdreyer
 
Saw this comment over at Kotaku, and thought it was an interesting take on the movie. Explains a lot why the critics love it, and the average audience member not so much.

What Rian Johnson was trying to do (Iím not sure I totally agree with his decisions) was take the usual harebrained Star Wars convoluted Hail Mary hero plan and make it fail. And fail spectacularly.

The Last Jedi was all about the heroes failing. Thereís no more magic plot armor. Poe gets a lot of good people killed by his heroic plan in Act 1. Finn, Rose and Poe get a lot of good people killed by their heroic plan in Act 2. Luke gets a lot of good people killed 10 years ago by failing his failing pupil.

If you view the Last Jedi as a movie about failure and overcoming it and subverting Good Guy Hero movies, itís fantastic. If you went into Last Jedi expecting to see Hero Luke at some point, the Luke we left at the end of Return of the Jedi, like I did, you left the movie really disappointed. AT BEST, Luke gets some peace and closure at the end. He and Leia are truly side characters in this.
 
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14. Re: Star Wars Spoiler Thread Dec 17, 2017, 02:10 Bodolza
 
I had a lot to say on TFA - most of it not good. My review for this one is much shorter: Okay, but kinda boring.

Overall, I'd rate it similar to AOTC. None of TLJ's best moments were as good as the best of AOTC, but nothing was as bad as some of the stuff in AOTC. They both suffer from a lot of uninteresting and unnecessary stuff.
 
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13. Re: Star Wars Spoiler Thread Dec 17, 2017, 01:12 Nucas
 
i thought the movie was solid but unremarkable.

i liked its willingness to be different and break "the rules" with new ships, new technology, new uses of the force. a lot of user reviews i've seen elsewhere have been decrying this, and my irony meter is maxing out; "the force awakens" was a rehash of a new hope, but this is too different!!!

i also liked how perfunctory the dispatching of snoke was. i think people look back on palpatine and are just unable to seperate like 30 years of retrospect from the memory of the first time they watched the movies and he was just "the bad wizard running shit", no different than snoke.

i think my favorite part was throwing rey's MYSTERIOUS LINEAGE out the airlock, another "bucking trends" move. star wars has felt trapped by its own need to maintain it's status quo for so long to me. this was a step in the right direction.
 
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12. More comments Dec 16, 2017, 20:25 jdreyer
 
Just a few random thoughts.

I think those two summaries are pretty excellent, Slick. I think your positives are the very things that resonated with me. As for the negatives, I might disagree with a few, but I also simply felt them less. When a movie is working on an emotional and character relationship level, it's a lot easier to gloss over a the flaws. When a movie isn't working like TFA, with its obvious callbacks, derivative plot, less than urgent stakes, convenient moments, it's much easier to see the flaws.

I thought Adam Driver did an excellent job portraying Kylo as a tortured soul. I really bought that performance. And Rey had more depth as well. The island stuff was slow, but it served to develop her. Still nothing explains her extreme competence at whatever she does. That's annoying. I was expecting her to be on that island being trained for months, but she was barely there for a day.

And while it seemed premature to off Snoke, I like how they're doing the unexpected.

Also, I thought it was so funny when Luke throws the lightsaber over his shoulder. In a moment, his mental state is revealed. Well done.

I'm fine with Leia's Mary Poppins moment, even though I thought it could have been done better. But she's a Skywalker and Vader threatens to turn her in Return. Since she's been hanging around for 40 years, she's had plenty of time to develop powers. I think the director made a conscious decision to assume the audience would make this jump. Also, when she got blown up, I thought "Oh, this is how they'll deal with Carrie Fisher's passing." I understand she was supposed to be central to the third film, but now they'll have to write her out somehow. Please, please, please do not CG her again.

Crait's "salt" moment was funny. I thought the director pulled a nice misdirection and threw Jakku sand in JJ's face: "You can be similar and still be unique and creative, dumbass."

They had a line that explained the rebels being faster at sublight speed: "They're cruisers. They're faster, but we'll catch them when they run out of fuel." The part that got me was them stopping when they ran out of fuel. No inertia? The worst part is that this is fixed simply with a few lines of dialogue:
Technician: "Sir, their engines have stopped."
General: "Lock on tractor beam and pull them in."

And yeah, it seems like sublight engines and lightspeed engines work on different fuel, so those ships should have been able to jump. Or at least they could have again used a few simple lines of dialog to prevent them from jumping, like saying the gravity well from Snoke's ship prevents them from jumping or something instead of leaving a gaping logic hole.

And not launching your TIE fighters when the cruisers are out of range, after they basically kill then entire command staff seems incongruent.

People coming and going during the battle was kind of silly, I'll admit. And the whole gambling planet scene was just unnecessary. IMO probably all of Finn and Rose's scenes were unnecessary. Honestly, as characters they're unnecessary.

Benicio's jailbreak was just dumb. Easily fixed by putting the lockbox up high, and Finn giving him a boost to hack it. Otherwise, what's keeping him there?

Hooray for puppet Yoda! No CG, FTW.

It's a shame they didn't let Finn suicide the battering ram laser. That would have been epic. Rian probably did, and Kathleen Kennedy stepped in and said "uh-uh."

Luke breaking for a moment, and deciding to kill Ben after all the death Vader had caused? I thought that was fine. Remember, Luke was never a classically trained Jedi.

And Luke's death was fine, too. I imagine that length of astral projection was just too draining. It made sense to me. And I loved the reveal that it was astral projection, that part was awesome. Padme dying made no sense, of course.

@Redeye: Heh, tuned my liquid intake to prevent premature urination as well. I agree that the plot is full of holes, but it worked on me emotionally.

@El Pit: I agree the script could have used more work, and I'm looking forward to Rian's trilogy. He needs to take a page from Pixar: they work and work and work their scripts until they're bulletproof, and it shows.

 
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11. Re: Star Wars Spoiler Thread Dec 16, 2017, 20:16 Neutronbeam
 
Agree with many comments....a few little other things got to me:

"laser sword". No. Laser is Earth technology; that just yanked me out of the movie.

Yoda. For many of the scenes it just didn't look like him.

Bombers. So what is propelling the bombs down--the microgravity of the ship or how are the falling?

Leia surfing through space. Just NO again.

Rey just disappearing from Snoke's ship and then BANG she's back on the Falcon? Needed a little more connectivity there.

If a tracking device is cloaked, how can its location be tracked?

For me the film had some great parts but overall a letdown.
 
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10. Episode VIII: Killing Luke Dec 16, 2017, 19:41 El Pit
 
Somebody should invent droids that can fly ships. Or rockets instead of bombs. And force ghosts should not be allowed to go on a vacation for decades instead of supporting and counseling the new Jedi order, its master and the padawans. I mean like Anakin's force ghost could tell Ben that Snoke is a liar and knows shit about what happened on Death Star II - boom, no sequel trilogy or at least none like the one we get served. Also, Lucasfilm could hire a story group with people who understood the old movies and the characters. Then we would not see the Jedi who threw away his weapon in refusal to fight his father because he wanted to believe that there was still something good in him try to kill his sleeping (!) nephew because he thinks that there cannot be anything good left in him. D'OH! A story group sure would not greenlight a screenplay filled with such grotesque misunderstandings. Also, a story group would just cut a useless side story like Canto Bight and would not add even more characters to the already overpopulated list of main and important additional characters. Right?

Oh boy, oh boy... Yes, they tried a brave move but it became a dud. A dud that is occassionally good but often boring and when it comes to the character arcs even plainly wrong.

Nevertheless, I would like to see a trilogy made by Rian Johnson where he does not have to work with a story and characters that other people have invented. BUT... somebody should REALLY read the screenplay before going into production and just cut all useless sidestories and tell him to find different solutions to hilariously stupid ideas like capital ships without autopilot systems or droids to pilot them. Really... /facepalm

After Episode VII: Killing Han Solo we got Episode VIII: Killing Luke, and I am sure the plan was for Episode IX to be called Killing Leia. Who will they kill off now? Lando? Chewie? R2 and C3PO? ALL OF THEM? Just to give an even bigger finger to the fans of the original trilogy?

To me, the sequel trilogy is extremely expensive fan fiction from now on. It just is not canon. Just some billionaire fans who did not totally understand the story, characters, and philosophy of Star Wars trying to move on with the story. Well, this fan fiction is at least nice to look at - mostly.
 
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9. No subject Dec 16, 2017, 16:32 Slick
 
Tipsy McStagger wrote on Dec 16, 2017, 16:05:
Slick wrote on Dec 15, 2017, 20:21:
The good parts were Snoke getting iced in a really smart way.

Wait you liked this?

This was such shit, Snoke was the best character, they gave a little taste of his power and then.. he was killed in the most anti-climactic way possible.

Why couldn't the have had Snoke kill luke, kylo betrays snoke and kills him to take power

I COULD WRITE BETTER SHIT THAN THIS TRASH.

Yes I liked it, because it was unexpected. We were all expecting Snoke to be a major player, so it was genuinely unexpected to see him bite the dust halfway through the movie. This cements Kylo as the seris' main antagonist (doesn't waste much time on the Sidious-type archvillain). Kylo is more interesting than Snoke from a character standpoint because he has a backstory, and is obviously still conflicted. Snoke was just a stock evil character archetype.

While I would have enjoyed learning more about him, I'm totally fine with the direction Rian chose to take here, because it was unexpected. And considering all my complaints about episode VII, unexpected is good.

Also, the general theme of VIII was "let go of the past, we're moving forward" which I'm also excited about.

The movie had a lot of problems, but the way in which Kylo axes Snoke was done in a smart way ie. Snoke could see everything in Kylo's mind, but he was outsmarted.

Overall I was happy to be surprised by a plot twist that didn't involve the reveal that someone was someone's else's son/daughter/distant familial relation. I like that they didn't push that shit at all, as it's been done. Ren could be the last of the Skywalker line.
 
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8. No subject Dec 16, 2017, 16:27 Slick
 
RedEye9 wrote on Dec 16, 2017, 13:30:
plotholes :
If the commander lady could lightspeed through their main ship's hull at any time, why didn't the medical ship think of doing that?
The first order had the chance to disable or destroy the "commander ladies" ship but choose to continue firing on the transport ships.
If the medical ship had stopped and then turned around, the first order would then have been in range and the hospital ship would have been destroyed long before it could make the leap to hyperspace.

I don't know about that, it was taking shots to it's shield for like 8 hours straight until it ran out of fuel. I think it could have managed a 180 in the 5-10 seconds that would take then just zap through the big ships' hull.

I mean the whole "OJ chase" as it will eternally be known to me now, was just so riddled with plot holes, it's exhausting picking them apart.
 
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7. No subject Dec 16, 2017, 16:05 Tipsy McStagger
 
Slick wrote on Dec 15, 2017, 20:21:
The good parts were Snoke getting iced in a really smart way.

Wait you liked this?

This was such shit, Snoke was the best character, they gave a little taste of his power and then.. he was killed in the most anti-climactic way possible.

Why couldn't the have had Snoke kill luke, kylo betrays snoke and kills him to take power

I COULD WRITE BETTER SHIT THAN THIS TRASH.
 
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6. No subject Dec 16, 2017, 13:30 RedEye9
 
plotholes :
If the commander lady could lightspeed through their main ship's hull at any time, why didn't the medical ship think of doing that?
The first order had the chance to disable or destroy the "commander ladies" ship but choose to continue firing on the transport ships.
If the medical ship had stopped and then turned around, the first order would then have been in range and the hospital ship would have been destroyed long before it could make the leap to hyperspace.
 
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