If you don't like it then please support Linux

That pretty much discredited anything else you had to say FYI.

Well he's speaking a lot of sense actually - Microsoft make money from every 360 game released, just as Sony make money out of every PS3 game and Nintendo do for their consoles. That's how the console makers make money and how they can afford to sell the machines themselves at a loss, at least at first.
Microsoft, with gaming capable PCs, is fighting itself, which is why they seem to be using their same old tricks to hobble the very platform they created. The reason the XBox is called the XBox is because it's a DirectX box - a way to make money out of the Direct X platform.
If I make an indie game on the PC using DirectX (or OpenGL for that matter), not using XNA or whatever then Microsoft doesn't make a penny out of that. Of course they're going to try and get you on a platform on which they have greater chance to monetize! This sucks for gamers and creators, particularly independents, but microsoft is a business and a demonstrably ruthless one at that. If you don't like it then please support Linux. Unfortunately, at the moment, DirectX + Visual studio is the best games development environment around - it's by no means perfect but nobody is doing anything better, that I can see.
For my part, I make PC games and I'm not overly fond of consoles - any machine that you can't create on is a waste as far as I'm concerned.

It's pretty much confirmed there is no PC version at all as of now.

tl;dr - Jerykk hates Microsoft, no one else cares what Jerykk thinks, end of thread.

Hmm...given how much money MS has invested into developing Windows into a "viable" multimedia platform (music, movies, games), that statement is patently false.

"Invested." Past tense. When Windows was still establishing itself, then sure, MS put a lot of money into it. But Windows is firmly established now. Currently, they're clearly investing a lot more money into making the Xbox the multimedia platform of choice. All their Windows efforts are either halfassed attempts to gain control and/or force people to upgrade OSes (Games For Windows, GfWL, DX10, Vista-exclusives like Halo 2 and Shadowrun) or attempts to appeal to businesses (increased focus on security). You'll notice that Vista and Windows 7 don't have any features that are particularly useful to gamers, aside from DX10 which has proven fairly worthless and DX11 which will likely prove the same.

Sure, they'd love for you to buy the $60 version of GTA IV on the 360, but they wouldn't be necessarily losing money either if you bought it for the pc.

It's not about losing money, it's about making more. MS gets royalties from 360. They also get money from Live. And they get money from 360 hardware. With PC games, they only make money if they publish. The head of MS's Europe games division even publicly stated that they don't do consecutive 360/PC releases because the PC version would sell better in certain countries (http://www.vg247.com/2008/07/01/mgs-europe-simultaneous-releases-would-shoot-ourselves-in-the-foot/). It doesn't get any clearer than that.

This comment was edited on Jul 13, 2009, 12:27.

But when a customer of that company, looking out for OUR best interests (i.e. PC gaming in this particular case), points out how they have negatively affected PC Gaming...

nin! Go get Riley outta the closet and dust'em off!

Microsoft wants everyone to play their games on 360 and 360 alone.

Hmm...given how much money MS has invested into developing Windows into a "viable" multimedia platform (music, movies, games), that statement is patently false. Sure, they'd love for you to buy the $60 version of GTA IV on the 360, but they wouldn't be necessarily losing money either if you bought it for the pc.

This comment was edited on Jul 13, 2009, 09:32.

They're a company, not a family member. They don't owe anyone any loyalty and they're quite within their rights to buy up whatever other companies they want to make whatever products they feel like. That's business, stop having so much emotional attachment to it.

The the thing that strikes me as so ironic, not to mention baffles the hell out of me, is how people continually point out that the company in question has a right and obligation to look out for its own best interests, and in fact are even noble for doing so. But when a customer of that company, looking out for OUR best interests (i.e. PC gaming in this particular case), points out how they have negatively affected PC Gaming, we are being petty and short-sighted, or my favorite, "over-emotional" LOL!. Do you guys really think that we as consumers should always put the business interests first before our own interests? That is what absolutely baffles me.

If you can't follow the path of a discussion then don't join in. This topic isn't just about what Jerykk wants it to be about.

This thread is about Alan Wake and its questionable status as a PC game. Microsoft is the publisher of Alan Wake and determines what platforms it gets released on. I'm pretty sure everything I've said is relevant to this discussion.

Yet again, where is the blame for the rest of the industry? All of those devs and other publishers didn't have to agree to publish Microsoft games.

This is true. Nobody has to accept Microsoft's money. Unfortunately, when Microsoft piles it on (over $50 million for GTA4 DLC exclusivity), it's hard to say no. If Microsoft didn't go to such lengths to destroy the competition, we wouldn't have this problem. Devs would work with EA, Ubisoft, Capcom, Activision, 2K, etc, all of whom have shown much, much more support for the PC platform than Microsoft. Remember Jade Empire? Microsoft didn't even publish the PC port. 2K did. Mass Effect? I doubt it would even be on the PC were it not for EA. Mass Effect 2 would certainly be a 360 exclusive if MS was still publishing. Microsoft's last port was Gears of War and they've publically stated that GoW2, Fable 2, Halo 3, Halo Wars and basically any game they publish will never come out on PC.

I seriously doubt they were thinking about fucking over the PC. They were more accurately thinking about getting one up on their competitors in the console space.

If that's the case, why are they turning PC games into Xbox exclusives? I mean, if they only care about hurting Sony, why hurt the PC too? It's simple. Microsoft wants everyone to play their games on 360 and 360 alone.

How many different times are you going to say "Microsoft is fucking us" without realizing that they aren't doing anything by themselves? What about the devs and publishers who have willingly jumped over to the Sony and Nintendo side as well?

Tell me, how many PC developers have jumped over to Sony and Nintendo? Can you name even one? If you haven't noticed, all the big Xbox developers were once PC developers. Epic, Bioware, Bethesda, Bungie, Infinity Ward... it's no coincidence. The creation of the Xbox is hugely responsible for the state of the industry today. While console games have always outsold PC games, PC developers didn't jump over until Microsoft introduced the Xbox. Not only was it much easier to develop for than any of Sony or Nintendo's platforms, but Microsoft gave out big incentives (free marketing and hype + $$$) to PC developers willing to make Xbox exclusives. Regardless of their intentions, MS really screwed over PC gaming by creating the Xbox. And yes, all the developers and publishers had a choice. However, if the Xbox didn't exist, they wouldn't have had that choice to begin with. They'd have to choose between Nintendo and Sony instead and neither are particularly appealing. Nintendo has lackluster hardware, limited controls and is difficult to develop for. Sony has convoluted hardware and is really hard to develop for. Neither company has ever made any attempt to attract PC developers which is why PC developers don't design games for either platform (multiplatform games are designed for 360 and ported to PS3 and PC during development).

You can say that it was inevitable and that publishers and developers had a choice. But you can't say that Microsoft's actions haven't (intentionally or not) hurt the PC more than any other company.

Do you ever have any fun? All I see you do on these boards is whine and bitch like some disgruntled old man who thinks the world has passed him by.

I actually enjoy these debates. They help me scrutinize my opinions, discard them if they're weak or reinforce them if they're strong. In this particular debate, my opinion remains intact.

Okay. Once again, this isn't about stepping up. THIS IS ABOUT MS
GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY TO FUCK THE PC.

If you can't follow the path of a discussion then don't join in. This topic isn't just about what Jerykk wants it to be about.

I really don't know how much clearer I can get it. If MS just left PC gaming alone, I'd be fine with it. We don't need MS. But that's not what they've done. What they've done is turn PC developers into Xbox developers and turn PC games into Xbox exclusives.

Yet again, where is the blame for the rest of the industry? All of those devs and other publishers didn't have to agree to publish Microsoft games. They weren't held at gun point. You have a lot of blame for Microsoft and none for everyone else in the industry who contributed to the problem. What's worse is that you focus on the problems that have already occurred without even trying to think of a solution.

They've tried their very best to make sure that everything is an Xbox exclusive at the expense of the PC.

What a dumb statement. I seriously doubt they were thinking about fucking over the PC. They were more accurately thinking about getting one up on their competitors in the console space.

Then we don't have much to talk about. I'm not really interested in what should or shouldn't be. I'm interested in facts and the fact is that MS has actively hurt the PC gaming industry, a fact I care very much about. Vern's and your logic is baffling. It's like if somebody shot somebody else and instead of blaming the shooter, you ask "Well, why didn't anybody jump in front of the bullet?!"

You should really stop posting analogies on these forums because yours are some of the most childish and inadvertently hilarious I've ever come across. Your logic is more baffling than anyone else here. How many different times are you going to say "Microsoft is fucking us" without realizing that they aren't doing anything by themselves? What about the devs and publishers who have willingly jumped over to the Sony and Nintendo side as well?

Do you ever have any fun? All I see you do on these boards is whine and bitch like some disgruntled old man who thinks the world has passed him by. Sack up grandpa.

rant

My biggest issue with Microsoft is that Abortion of a service called "Games for Windows Live!".

If ever there was an example of Microsoft blatantly screwing PC gaming over, this is it.

What does GFW Live! really do for us? Achievements? If anything, that just proves how out of touch they are with the PC online community. Add to that that the only way to get DLC for GFWL games is with that F-ed up purchasing model which I fail to see the "point" of at all you have a cespool of complete gabage. The Points system no more "secure" than the credit card. In fact, MS keeps your card on file in your account!

Then there's the fact that you can't use DLC (Fallout3) unless you're logged into GFW Live! (I know that you can move the file manually to the offline mod folder, but it SHOULDN'T be that way). Then, if you bought it on Steam, you have to be logged into that service as well.

I'm failing to see any benefit to the service whatsoever--want a nightmare: a games for Windows game on Steam. I think MS intentionally did that to try and make Steam user's frustrated with an otherwise excellent service.

Shame is valve really has done a great job, it's usually when the publishers insist on tossing their own copy protection into the game (rather than relying on Valve's mechanism) where things really screw up.

Yet another example of rather than doing something right, they choose to just do something, and screw PC gaming over in the process. While I don't agree that PC gaming is "dead," I will agree that MS sure isn't do anything to expand and grow the platform in it's areas of strength...they're just doing what they always do...drop something in the fray, and will probably end up buying someone that does it right later on, then re-brand it as GFWL 2.0.

/rant

Ok, I'll go back on my meds now. Jaw is still killing me for having my wisdom teeth out on Friday.

- ^Drag0n^

This comment was edited on Jul 11, 2009, 16:43.

Why is it Microsoft's responsibility to hold the entire PC industry aloft?

Okay. Once again, this isn't about stepping up. THIS IS ABOUT MS GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY TO FUCK THE PC. I really don't know how much clearer I can get it. If MS just left PC gaming alone, I'd be fine with it. We don't need MS. But that's not what they've done. What they've done is turn PC developers into Xbox developers and turn PC games into Xbox exclusives. They've tried their very best to make sure that everything is an Xbox exclusive at the expense of the PC.

At this point I don't care if Microsoft did or did not actively hurt the PC gaming industry, I only care why every other company did not seek to profit from their mistakes.

Then we don't have much to talk about. I'm not really interested in what should or shouldn't be. I'm interested in facts and the fact is that MS has actively hurt the PC gaming industry, a fact I care very much about. Vern's and your logic is baffling. It's like if somebody shot somebody else and instead of blaming the shooter, you ask "Well, why didn't anybody jump in front of the bullet?!"

This comment was edited on Jul 11, 2009, 14:27.

You sidestepped the important question he asked though (a habit of yours it seems). Why is it Microsoft's responsibility to hold the entire PC industry aloft? Where is everyone else? Microsoft left a big black hole in the industry and no one is bothering to pick up where they left off. At this point I don't care if Microsoft did or did not actively hurt the PC gaming industry, I only care why every other company did not seek to profit from their mistakes.

That's business, stop having so much emotional attachment to it.

Ah yes, the typical "It's just business so you better accept it" argument. Sorry, but no. Just because something is profitable for someone else doesn't mean I should accept or approve of it. Really, does Microsoft's profitability mean anything to PC gamers? Nope. As a gamer, I don't care about investors or profit margins. I care about PC games. When MS takes a game away from the PC, that pisses me off.

The better question is why hasn't anyone else stepped up?

Okay. You really don't seem to be getting the point here. This isn't a matter of stepping up. This is a matter of Microsoft actively hurting PC gaming. Once again, here are the many ways in which Microsoft has hurt PC gaming:

1) Buying PC developers and having them make Xbox exclusives (Lionhead, Bungie).
2) Paying PC developers shitloads of money to make Xbox exclusives (Epic, Remedy, Bioware).
3) Taking games that were once PC games and turning them into Xbox exclusives (Halo, Gears of War, Alan Wake).
4) Buying and shutting down good PC studios (FASA, Digital Anvil, Ensemble, ACES).
5) Making DX10 a Vista exclusive.
6) Vista.
7) Games for Windows Live.
8) Xbox.
9) Paying publishers a shitload of money to make 360-exclusive DLC (GTA4, TR:U).

Oh yeah, check this out. Looks like the PC version of Alan Wake stands a very good chance of not existing: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/59493

They're a company, not a family member. They don't owe anyone any loyalty and they're quite within their rights to buy up whatever other companies they want to make whatever products they feel like. That's business, stop having so much emotional attachment to it. The better question is why hasn't anyone else stepped up? Can't blame everything on Microsoft, they've left plenty of opportunities for competitors with regards to PC gaming and the industry has fumbled them continually.

The 180-degree shift in focus for Alan Wake (from PC as lead platform to a PC release being up in the air) is a nice little microcosm of how Microsoft has shifted its entire attitude towards the PC in general. Is it any wonder they have garnered so much disdain from the PC Gaming crowd? I don't blame them for embracing consoles, but the way they have completely turned their backs on PC gaming is shameful.

The only official word on Alan Wake is Spring 2010 Xbox 360 and Games for Windows according to wikipedia.

The only thing I see on Wikipedia is this: Alan Wake is billed as a "psychological action thriller" and is due for release on Xbox 360 in Spring 2010[4], with a Windows release possibly following aftewards[3].

Which is accurate because Microsoft hasn't officially announced anything regarding the PC version. No mention of it whatsoever at E3. Now Remedy states that they are focusing exclusively on the 360 version. That doesn't bode well for the PC version.

Few problems with that list. Raven has been a console developer for a while. The last PC shooter they made was Quake 4. Everything since has been designed for consoles, including the upcoming Wolfenstein and Singularity.

Wolfenstein is PC and 360. And, honestly, I havent seen Activision pimping wolf in nearly as many console mags as PC mags / sites. I don't blame them for making their Marvel games for the console (see below); really that type of game does nothing for me.

Dual (or triple) ports can't be generalized as bad, either. CoD4 and Fallout3 are excellent, no matter the platform. And (in defense of the 360) Battlefield: Bad Company was a helluva fun game.

Can't speak to singularity: It's Raven, so it won't suck, but I have no idea as to if it's 360 exclusive or not. If it's not, I'm sure both versions will rock.

id has publicly announced that they are focusing on consoles now too.

Yeah, but let's be fair about that statement here--when John says that, he means "we're handling the console versions internally," not, "we're abandoning the PC community, so long and thanks for all the fish." It's no secret that he was less than thrilled by how some of the more recent id IP has been ported by outside teams. I'm sure the Zenimax deal was at least in part due to this---they won't have a publisher dictating ports, port rights, and timing as the ARE the publisher now.

Novalogic hasn't made any good games in a long, long time.

Agreed, however: Delta Force 2 Extreme is about to come out, and they've stated the successor to JointOps will be out next summer.

Any way you look at it, PC gaming is nowhere near as strong as it was in the 90's.

Actually, the numbers haven't gone down, just the fraction of the base. Statistics are funny that way. Also, plain and simple, as many have said here: consoles are an easy audience to develop for (from a production standpoint): no hassles with hardware issues, driver conflicts, etc. And any dev team that sends out a console port with significant bugs (read crash) should be thrown to the lions because of just those reasons.

I also stand by my statement: I'd rather get fewer, better games than allot of crap I have to filter through, be they PC exclusive, or ports from a console.

I can't believe I'm quoting this magazine, but check out the article on Page 48 of Maximum PC's July issue. They make allot of good points on why now is actually the best time to be gaming on a PC. The indy crowd (PCs are still more accessible than consoles to the up-and-coming developers), MMOs, and the maturization of digital distribution and DRM on services like Steam being primary examples.

I'll admit it...Sometimes I long for a good game of QW...then I realize how much of a pain in the ass it was to find (never mind run) a QW server compared to what we have now. It's like a hot girlfriend from the past with an attitude...you'll always remember it fondly, but won't necessarily want to go back

^D^

Well, no, Microsoft hasn't said anything about the status of Alan Wake PC. For all we know, they might have canceled it. In addition, when was the last time MS released a PC game? Gears of War, if I recall correctly. Still haven't seen anything suggesting that Halo 3, Gears of War 2, Fable 2 or any of the more recent MS games will ever come out on PC.

The only official word on Alan Wake is Spring 2010 Xbox 360 and Games for Windows according to wikipedia.

We still get a PC version with Microsoft though, an important distinction you failed to mention.

Well, no, Microsoft hasn't said anything about the status of Alan Wake PC. For all we know, they might have canceled it. In addition, when was the last time MS released a PC game? Gears of War, if I recall correctly. Still haven't seen anything suggesting that Halo 3, Gears of War 2, Fable 2 or any of the more recent MS games will ever come out on PC.

Unlike you I just don't care if my platform is lead or not, I care about the quality of the individual title as it's the important factor.

Except lead platform has a huge impact on quality. A game designed for a console has to make a lot of compromises due to aging hardware and a limited control scheme. This is why PC series/games that become console series/games always suffer. Remember DX2? 'nuff said.

Lets run the tally:

PC:

# World of Warcraft-- Pretty much they biggest game on the planet and it's...say it...PC Exclusive (well, until that iPhone client comes out).

# Pretty much any game id Software makes (tm)

# Pretty much any game Raven makes (tm)

# Pretty Much and game Novalogic makes (tm)

# GRAW 1 &2 (Yes, the PC versions were BETTER)

# C&C series (if you don't know what this is leave. Now.)

# Civilization series

# Half-life Series

# Team Fortress 2

# Sims series (not my thing, but well, it is what it is)

# ArmA 1 & 2

# etc., etc.

Few problems with that list. Raven has been a console developer for a while. The last PC shooter they made was Quake 4. Everything since has been designed for consoles, including the upcoming Wolfenstein and Singularity. id has publically announced that they are focusing on consoles now too. Novalogic hasn't made any good games in a long, long time. Any way you look at it, PC gaming is nowhere near as strong as it was in the 90's.

This comment was edited on Jul 10, 2009, 01:59.

Ok, I'll admit it. I am a tool.

But that's beside the point, and irrespective of whether I'm playing on my 360 or PC.

Let's be a little more "fair" about this discussion:

PC gaming? Dead? Please don't make me laugh. I've been around this genre now for, well, way too long (no, Blue, you don't have to agree with me here ;-) ), and I stopped counting how many times I've heard this.

Lets run the tally:

PC:

• World of Warcraft-- Pretty much they biggest game on the planet and it's...say it...PC Exclusive (well, until that iPhone client comes out).
• Pretty much any game id Software makes (tm)
• Pretty much any game Raven makes (tm)
• Pretty Much and game Novalogic makes (tm)
• GRAW 1 &2 (Yes, the PC versions were BETTER)
• C&C series (if you don't know what this is leave. Now.)
• Civilization series
• Half-life Series
• Team Fortress 2
• Sims series (not my thing, but well, it is what it is)
• ArmA 1 & 2
• etc., etc.

Someone said it earlier as well-- I *wouldn't* want every console game on the PC. Some games are just better there (or better LEFT there); it's about the quality. If all we get this year is Wolfenstein, Arma2, and CoD:MW2, I'm ok with that.

^D^

This comment was edited on Jul 9, 2009, 16:31.