Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit

Courthouse News Service reports that a group of 100,000 Final Fantasy XI customers have filed a federal class action lawsuit against Square Enix of America over fees and penalties (thanks Edge). Word is:
Named plaintiff Esther Leong of San Francisco says that Washington-based Square Enix lied about or concealed its monthly fees, penalties for late payments, interest, restrictions, and other things that should have been fully disclosed at points of purchase.

The class seeks damages of more than $5 million, alleging unfair business practices, false advertising, and unjust enrichment.
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30 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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30.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 18:57
30.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 18:57
Jun 25, 2009, 18:57
 
The time matters because...? I'm not trying to pick on you but you should really just get some sleep, you're not really making much sense in this topic.
29.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 18:33
29.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 18:33
Jun 25, 2009, 18:33
 
"at that time"

Now it is very common - then (when guild wars launched) for a mmo, especially a retail boxed one it was unheard of. Seriously name me one other retail boxed mmo from 2005 or eariler which was subscription free.
28.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 18:11
28.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 18:11
Jun 25, 2009, 18:11
 
Guild wars? Exception that proves the rule - especially considering they went out of their way to point out it didn't need monthly fees thereby proving that it was a generally accepted fact the mmo's did at that time.

Actually there are dozens of subscription-free MMO's supported by ad revenue and item stores. You aren't getting much right in this topic
27.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:55
27.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:55
Jun 25, 2009, 17:55
 
Section 14 again - states they can notify via their website.

Oops just realised lying in bed that section 14 is dealing with how the definition of the class can be changed. Guess I got that bit wrong. I still fail to see how terms and conditions cannot be legally binding by posting notifications or in mmo cases making you re-accept them (ala wow) every time they are changed. If you don't agree cancel the subscription properly and don't play - don't play then whinge and sue when you get caught by the small print.

Guild wars? Exception that proves the rule - especially considering they went out of their way to point out it didn't need monthly fees thereby proving that it was a generally accepted fact the mmo's did at that time.

I really don't know enough about the ins and outs of contract law regarding online contracts to justify continuing this the whole thing just seems like an attempt to get a ridiculous sum of money because one person has decided they represent over 100,000 disgruntled customers over technicalities and legalities of what happened when accounts were not kept/cancelled properly. Guess kinda like the RIAA in reverse.

If you want though my wife has just started her contract law module for her law degree - so I could ask her in a couple of months
26.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:38
Cram
 
26.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:38
Jun 25, 2009, 17:38
 Cram
 
Just waiting for the lawsuit where 500,000+ WoW subscribers sue Blizzard for that game being too addictive and effectively ruining various parts of their lives. Or something else.

If these FFXI players have a valid case, I hope they do win. If they do win, however, I see large groups of people from all MMO's trying to band together to sue the developers for any number of things to make a quick buck.
25.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:25
25.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:25
Jun 25, 2009, 17:25
 
That mmo need subscriptions is not up for question

Two words: "Guild Wars"
Don't start anything you can't finish. Preferably to component atoms.
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24.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:11
24.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:11
Jun 25, 2009, 17:11
 
Section 14 again - states they can notify via their website.

You can't simply add things to your ToS to make them part of a legally binding contract. They could say in Section 15 that they notify you via carrier pigeons, that doesn't mean a damned thing

I assumed you meant it was up to Square to prove their innocence by providing the required 5 years of websites mirrors.

That would be murky at best considering the source would be the company itself under scrutiny. A third party would assess this.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 17:12.
23.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:08
23.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:08
Jun 25, 2009, 17:08
 
Section 14 again - states they can notify via their website. Given the plantiffs list that in their case I assumed you meant it was up to Square to prove their innocence by providing the required 5 years of websites mirrors.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 17:09.
22.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:04
22.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:04
Jun 25, 2009, 17:04
 
No, it just means companies cannot simply add things to their ToS whenever they feel like it without proper notification. It has nothing to do with guilty until proven innocent or whatever you're going on about.

Actually I can see no difference between an mmo and a tv subscription at all - theres no physical product and if you don't pay your subject to late fees for example here's a quote from Virginmedia faqs on payment.

And Square didn't have anything like that in their end user agreement when they started doing this, hence the lawsuit. I find it hard to believe you really don't understand this. I think you are simply opposed to litigation period, as if every lawsuit is just about moneygrubbing people trying to rob companies or something.

Let me put it simply, you cannot collect extraneous money from an individual when you have an existing contract that does not detail those fees. If someone cancels their service, they should not be further billed. The PlayOnline system as I remember it from years ago was incredibly convoluted and that's being generous, you cannot fault people for not understanding the cancellation method. Personally I cancelled over the phone and was still billed for two months though I did eventually get the fees back by issuing a charge back with my credit card company.

Basically stop white knighting Square on this, you don't seem objective to begin with.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 17:09.
21.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:03
21.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:03
Jun 25, 2009, 17:03
 
Actually courts have ruled the opposite way in the past on this issue.

Omg so it's guilty until proven innocent now - that trully sucks. I'm off to bed but I think you've just ensured I have nightmares.
20.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:03
20.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:03
Jun 25, 2009, 17:03
 

Intrest charges was a seperate issue but the way I wrote the post that didn't come across.

It's no big deal. I thought you were trying to make a separate point but I couldn't make the connection.

Were you affected by this lawsuit somehow?

Nope just always stunned at these sue cases.

Sure...but it happens all the time. Really, too much for the normal person to get worked up over, if you're not somehow involved with it.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 17:04.
19.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 17:01
19.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 17:01
Jun 25, 2009, 17:01
 

Do you work for Square-Enix Lorcin? You seem pretty invested in this.

Nope just always stunned at these sue cases.

An MMO game is not a utility or television service

Actually I can see no difference between an mmo and a tv subscription at all - theres no physical product and if you don't pay your subject to late fees for example here's a quote from Virginmedia faqs on payment.

What happens if I miss a payment?

We always ask you to make your payments by the ‘Payment due’ date on your bill. That’s because we may charge a £10 late payment fee if you don’t – and your services could be restricted.


I was a virgin customer for 4 years and didn't know they had this fee - it wasn't hidden just I never bothered to look because it didn't affect me (I was actually looking for a fee quote from my new ISP but turns out they don't do one :))

So it's ok for your local paper to charge you for issues you didn't receive due to a lapse in your subscription then charge you interest fees?

God yes - if I hadn't cancelled the subscription properly then yes I entirely would expect to still be charged. The onus would be on me to properly notify the papers subscription office and cancel my ongoing subscription not just cancel any future payments to said office.
18.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 16:54
18.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 16:54
Jun 25, 2009, 16:54
 
Remembering that the burden of proof will be on Esther to prove that the fees were not listed anywhere - and if the court agrees that playonline is a hugely customised Internet browser and therefore an acceptable way of issues notification of changes - she may have a massively hard time providing a mirror of a site from 2003 to present including the all messages sent to playonline.

Actually courts have ruled the opposite way in the past on this issue. You cannot simply make changes to your website to change a ToS or agreement and even forcing a click-thru on one is sometimes not enough. That's why you see so many sites send out notifications of changes to the terms via an email link to the website ToS.

This suit isn't without merit and definitely has a chance of success.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 16:55.
17.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 16:50
17.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 16:50
Jun 25, 2009, 16:50
 
Sorry worded that wrong. If I go over my overdraft limit my bank will send by a letter which costs a maximum of 30p and charge me £25 for the privilege. Whether it was hidden or not can't be determined without access to a mirror of the software from 2003. It could also be another attempt at the notification angle wherein the late charge was notify but not on the website or via law but through the playonline software.

Intrest charges was a seperate issue but the way I wrote the post that didn't come across. Again the issue is not whether they have the right to add interest to money owed (just ask my credit card company!) but rather whether the interest was listed as a charge.

Remembering that the burden of proof will be on Esther to prove that the fees were not listed anywhere - and if the court agrees that playonline is a hugely customised Internet browser and therefore an acceptable way of issues notification of changes - she may have a massively hard time providing a mirror of a site from 2003 to present including the all messages sent to playonline.
16.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 16:43
16.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 16:43
Jun 25, 2009, 16:43
 
Why does the guy have to be a plaintiff to understand the legal issue here? Seems pretty obvious. Square-Enix decided to charge people back fines and interest for months when they did not have their subscription active without notifying them. How can anyone seriously defend this practice with a straight face?

Do you work for Square-Enix Lorcin? You seem pretty invested in this.

This is yet another big case for a "Department of Common Sense" to come in and throw the thing out - unfortunaly such a department doesn't exist.

An MMO game is not a utility or television service, I would think that is common sense too. Those services have legally tested rules and regulations binding them. When they stray outside the line they are sued quite quickly.

cancel it properly and as they are such bad clients why should Sqaure continue to provide them with services.

So it's ok for your local paper to charge you for issues you didn't receive due to a lapse in your subscription then charge you interest fees? You talk about common sense but I see some lacking here.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 16:46.
15.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 16:37
15.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 16:37
Jun 25, 2009, 16:37
 
The penalties for late fees? - fair enough, it's really not unusual for people to charge penalties when they recieve late payment - especially in this instance when there is no physical product and therefore the customers could have stopped the subscription instead of being late. Charging interest on money owed is the way of the world - without it all the bankers would be paupers.

I think you're confusing two separate and very different things. Late fees occur when...well, when a customer is delinquent in their payment. But interest charged? Yeah, that's common to creditors and banking systems, but I can't really recall anything like that being applied to an an online game subscription. If in fact they did try to pull something like that it would definitely be in the realm of "hidden charges".

Which, even by your own explanation of "interest charges", it still goes beyond mere termination of service for delinquent payment; so there are grounds for a lawsuit.
14.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 16:19
14.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 16:19
Jun 25, 2009, 16:19
 
Actually no it's not a "ridiculous kneejerk reaction" it's a ridiculous lawsuit. That mmo need subscriptions is not up for question - and as I'm sure the box listed that online fees applied (the only boxes I currently have are English but the first copy I bought was on import from America and I'm 99% sure it was listed). The penalties for late fees? - fair enough, it's really not unusual for people to charge penalties when they recieve late payment - especially in this instance when there is no physical product and therefore the customers could have stopped the subscription instead of being late. Charging interest on money owed is the way of the world - without it all the bankers would be paupers.

Restriction of service if a bill is unpaid? My TV company would shut me down within days of me not paying why should Square provide a service to someone who is not prepared to pay for it.

"Termination of game data for late payment of fees" is a strange one I'm guessing somebody was so late paying their account got pruned (which used to happen pretty quickly if I remember). Again really they owe the company money and have continued to let it accrue by not settling the balance and cancelling the subscription through the proper channels at some point they will reach their credit limit if you like with square and will get pruned.

I can see how problems have occured - credit cards expired or subscriptions cancelled on the credit card/bank account but not with Square. Really this lawsuit only seem to be representing people who either didn't pay their account properly or cancel it properly and as they are such bad clients why should Sqaure continue to provide them with services.

I'm just guessing as the documents so far are very brief in details but I imagine in actually the basis behind this lawsuit is paragraph 14 of the statement (page 5 line 9) which states the information should be made avaliable on the website or sent direct to the customer. There is no provision there for notifications to made via the PlayOnline software therefore Square could technically be found in breach of the notifications. If the suit is hinging on that technicality this really is just another case of somebody trying it on for money.

This is yet another big case for a "Department of Common Sense" to come in and throw the thing out - unfortunaly such a department doesn't exist.

Oh and the bit about not being bothered to read 13 pages was a joke! That's why it had a smiley at the end.
13.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 16:15
13.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 16:15
Jun 25, 2009, 16:15
 
hurrrr this legal shit is long, screw dis I will just say shit and call dem dumb hahha.

You actually read it?

More to my point...ARE you one of the plaintiffs? You seem pretty fixated on this story for reasons yet-unstated.
12.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 15:30
Verno
 
12.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 15:30
Jun 25, 2009, 15:30
 Verno
 
Which is the entire article. The very first thing listed is monthly fees. Your not one of the plantiffs by any chance are you???

Dude you posted a ridiculous kneejerk reaction without fully understanding the situation or even being clear on the issues, you can make silly accusations all you want but the deflection is transparent.

Oh I must confessed I didn't read the 13 page PDF in leagalise - I tried, but found myself compelled to scroll to the bottom and hit the accept button

hurrrr this legal shit is long, screw dis I will just say shit and call dem dumb hahha.
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11.
 
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit
Jun 25, 2009, 15:08
11.
Re: Final Fantasy XI Lawsuit Jun 25, 2009, 15:08
Jun 25, 2009, 15:08
 
Congratulations on not reading the thread or article.

Yup sure I didn't read:

LOS ANGELES (CN) - A federal class action claims that online gaming company Square Enix of America deceived 100,000 customers by not being upfront about fees and penalties.
Named plaintiff Esther Leong of San Francisco says that Washington-based Square Enix lied about or concealed its monthly fees, penalties for late payments, interest, restrictions, and other things that should have been fully disclosed at points of purchase.
The class seeks damages of more than $5 million, alleging unfair business practices, false advertising, and unjust enrichment. It is represented by Ronald Makarem and
Michael Kim


Which is the entire article. The very first thing listed is monthly fees. Your not one of the plantiffs by any chance are you???

Oh I must confessed I didn't read the 13 page PDF in leagalise - I tried, but found myself compelled to scroll to the bottom and hit the accept button

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 15:10.
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