I dunno if Bethesda is really all that innovative...
They've kinda been rehashing the same recipe in a watered down form for the past twenty years.
I mean, everybody sees that F3 is effectively the same system as Daggerfall and I whole heartedly agree that aside from presentation, F3 was not even a shade of F2 in expansiveness.

How the fuck did everybody get onto L4D2 in the middle of this thread!?
Yeesh... only @Blues.

What you're basically saying is of the 8 or so million people that purchased Fallout 3 none are fans of the original. And that they were all either Bethesda or its investors.

Not at all. However, considering that Fallout 1 and 2 probably had less than 1 million sales combined, I'd say the vast majority of people who bought Fallout 3 never played the originals. Hell, I'd say the vast majority hadn't even heard of Fallout.

Again, as I've mentioned at least a hundred times since FO3 came out, I don't think it's a bad game. I enjoyed it and bought it. It's just that FO1 and 2 were much better and as a sequel to these classics, FO3 was disappointing. A sequel should be superior to its predecessors in all ways and FO3 was only superior in terms of presentation. The stories, dialogue, characters, moral choices, combat, balance, etc, were all inferior.

Fans of the original are mostly likely married with careers, houses and other responsibilities. I doubt most of them are lighting the Internet on fire with their fury over Bethesda's violation of this sacred IP.

I think you should check NMA and RPGCodex more often.

Sitting on a couch in front of a 52" HDTV with a buddy next to me and firing up some co-op anything beats nearly anything the PC has to offer these days.

I'm pretty sure we've had this debate before. The experience you're describing has little to do with games or the platforms they are on. You could get a similar experience by hanging out with a buddy, drinking some beers and watching a hilariously awful movie on your HDTV. Co-op can make anything fun... in short bursts. For that matter, doing anything with friends can be fun. Unfortunately, this has little to no bearing whatsoever on the actual quality of any given game. Games like Fallout, Deus Ex, Planescape: Torment and System Shock 2 weren't classics because you could sit on a couch and play them with your buddies. They were classics because they really pushed the envelope on what games could achieve.

This comment was edited on Jun 27, 2009, 05:38.

Then why did you bring up their history? It's a factor regardless of what you have to say on the matter. If it's not a factor, then you and everyone else should stop comparing the L4D support to TF2. You are full of hypocricy.

It's a factor because that's what people who bought it are complaining about, hence why it was brought up. I fail to see the hypocrisy in pointing that out. I even said it had nothing to do with my reasoning, I'm not sure how much more clear you want to be here.

Hmm responding to an Verno being a tool to someone, has nothing to do with you. Mind your own business next time if you don't want it to factor into other discussions.

It was a perfectly reasonable discussion about L4D until you people with nothing but ad-homs got involved. I'll get involved where I see fit and that's just tough shit if you don't like it.

So holding Valve to their word on one statement on commitment and pointing out that you are completely disregarding another statement confirming that commitment...this has no merit? Maybe in your little world and only because you have nothing to refute it.

Some people bought the product based on the initial statements, people didn't buy the game after the sequel announcement just because they said "whoops ok we will support it after all". Do you really not see the disparity there?

Well we already know you aren't paying attention. This continues to show this. This is what...the third example I've pointed out just today?

Rude and antagonistic, if you don't have anything else to offer just say so.

I never insulted you. I insulted Verno, after he has repeatedly taken shots at me. This has nothing to do with you. As I already stated, if you feel my general comments of "whiner", "cry-babies" etc, apply to you, that's your problem.

If you don't see a problem with constantly calling everyone else babies and whiners then I don't know what more to say to you. You're acting like an internet bully and frankly it's kind of pathetic.

Funny, I see you, Verno, Riley, and several others constantly blowing things out of proportion, and not just in the L4D threads. Generally speaking, I dont insult someone unless they insult me first...except Riley.

Funny, I see you in a neverending battle with the entire forum.

It really is quite hypocritical to claim it's ok for you all to put forth your opinions, as negative and narrow minded as they may be, but then want to dismiss mine as fanboyism and as a Valve apologist.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I never said otherwise. I called you an apologist because you constantly go on the attack in any Valve related topic and generally fight with everyone until they are too tired of replying to continue.

Now, are we going to get back on topic or continue this annoying quote war for another few pages?

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 2009, 18:11.

I don't care about their history

Then why did you bring up their history? It's a factor regardless of what you have to say on the matter. If it's not a factor, then you and everyone else should stop comparing the L4D support to TF2. You are full of hypocricy.

You were being an idiot in that thread and I pointed it out.

Hmm responding to an Verno being a tool to someone, has nothing to do with you. Mind your own business next time if you don't want it to factor into other discussions.

There was nothing else of merit in that statement,

So holding Valve to their word on one statement on commitment and pointing out that you are completely disregarding another statement confirming that commitment...this has no merit? Maybe in your little world and only because you have nothing to refute it.

I have yet to see anyone on these forums say that Valve is ripping them off.

Well we already know you aren't paying attention. This continues to show this. This is what...the third example I've pointed out just today?

Maybe you should refrain from insulting other users if you don't want to be insulted yourself.

I never insulted you. I insulted Verno, after he has repeatedly taken shots at me. This has nothing to do with you. As I already stated, if you feel my general comments of "whiner", "cry-babies" etc, apply to you, that's your problem.

Just the other day when I replied to "theyarecomingforyou", I msg'd him on Steam to say, 'you know that even though I was replying to your comments, the insults aren't directed at you'. His response, 'oh I know not to take it personally.', then we went on to have a lengthy mature discussion about L4D & L4D2.

The only problem I consistently see in L4D threads is you.

Funny, I see you, Verno, Riley, and several others constantly blowing things out of proportion, and not just in the L4D threads. Generally speaking, I dont insult someone unless they insult me first...except Riley. It really is quite hypocritical to claim it's ok for you all to put forth your opinions, as negative and narrow minded as they may be, but then want to dismiss mine as fanboyism and as a Valve apologist.

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 2009, 17:52.

THE END IS NIGH!!!! THE INDEPENDANT GIANT HAS FALLEN!

BEWARE THE SOCIALLY BASED BUSINESSPEOPLE THAT KNOW NOTHING OF WHAT THEY MANAGE!

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 2009, 16:25.

Considering Valves history over the last 10 years...yes it is.

Valve isn't a friend or entity, they are a company. I don't care about their history, maybe others do but that's pretty misplaced. They exist to make money, not be anyone's friend or endear themselves. TF2 for example was a smart business move on their part, not charity.

Then why do you insult me in other threads over the same thing? I present statements that contradict your complaints and you want to dismiss them. This isn't rational, this isn't a disagreement, this is selective comprehension to suit your own point of view.

You were being an idiot in that thread and I pointed it out.

Way to ignore the rest of that quote and then respond to it out of context. And it's a wonder why I have a problem with how people are being so narrow minded about this.

There was nothing else of merit in that statement, feel free to point out what exactly was so mind blowing that would have proven your argument.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to anything anyone on Blues or other website have been saying. People have said exactly that. Not everyone, but we aren't talking about everyone, we are talking about the people being completely irrational over the announcement of L4D2.

Yes, people who disagree with your assessment of things "obviously havent been paying attention". I have yet to see anyone on these forums say that Valve is ripping them off. I have seen people upset with rational reasons, I've seen them present them all with evidence to support their claims and I've seen you arguing with them since the beginning. No one ever said everyone is going to agree with eachother but more often than not you're rude and hostile towards other users. So forgive me if I do not accept your blanket assessment of this particular gaming drama.

Then maybe you should refrain from insulting me in other threads if this is the kind of argument you want to make.

Maybe you should refrain from insulting other users if you don't want to be insulted yourself. The other posters in that thread made valid points, got insulted by some users then you joined in.

I disagree with people all the time regarding Valve and dont call them whiners. I call the whiners what they are. The ones that choose to ignore information that contradicts their complaints and choose to continue to harp on the same thing.

Oh I see. They are whiners because you say so. Silly me for arguing with that logic. You continue to insist on this information, what information exactly? Valve's PR statements after this whole incident occurred? Surely a reliable source of information there

If you feel you fall into this category, that is your problem, not mine.

The only problem I consistently see in L4D threads is you. You harass and belittle other forum users and try to bully your opinion on them. Realize that people don't agree with you on L4D. They won't agree until they see evidence to suggest otherwise. There's nothing more to be gained by yelling at them over and over again.

People are concerned L4D is going down that road and it's not unreasonable given the game's history so far.

Considering Valves history over the last 10 years...yes it is.

Put simply, people don't share your opinion on this topic. That doesn't make you or them wrong, it's called a disagreement.

Then why do you insult me in other threads over the same thing? I present statements that contradict your complaints and you want to dismiss them. This isn't rational, this isn't a disagreement, this is selective comprehension to suit your own point of view.

To hold Valve to their word on some statements

Yes how unreasonable.

Way to ignore the rest of that quote and then respond to it out of context. And it's a wonder why I have a problem with how people are being so narrow minded about this.

Valve are screwing their fans

I don't see anyone saying that

You obviously haven't been paying attention to anything anyone on Blues or other website have been saying. People have said exactly that. Not everyone, but we aren't talking about everyone, we are talking about the people being completely irrational over the announcement of L4D2.

All I have been saying since the start of this L4D2 announcement and the blow up about it, is that Valve deserves the benefit of the doubt based on their history, especially since they have already made public statements on this matter. But people like you are only concerned with the 7 month history of L4D, and ignore the statements Valve has made on the matter. Ignoring the fact that the DLC was announced prior to E3, then people claiming the DLC now is in response to the outcry. Ignoring the fact that the SDK and content will be compatible with L4D and L4D2, ignoring the fact that Gabe has stated their plans for interoperability between the two games.

All of the name calling in the world isn't going to make your argument hold water.

Then maybe you should refrain from insulting me in other threads if this is the kind of argument you want to make.

People aren't whiners for disagreeing with you.

I disagree with people all the time regarding Valve and dont call them whiners. I call the whiners what they are. The ones that choose to ignore information that contradicts their complaints and choose to continue to harp on the same thing. If you feel you fall into this category, that is your problem, not mine.

People should speak with their wallets and avoid purchasing the second game if they want to send a proper message to Valve.

Exactly. And in the meantime, take the facts in, stop jumping to conclusions, stop ignoring information that contradicts their complaints and then speak with their wallet when the game is actually out.

Valve have never not supported one of their games post release.

People are concerned L4D is going down that road and it's not unreasonable given the game's history so far.

They are saying they will do the same with L4D. How hard is that to understand?

Put simply, people don't share your opinion on this topic. That doesn't make you or them wrong, it's called a disagreement.

To hold Valve to their word on some statements

Yes how unreasonable.

make a big stink about it because they think Valve are screwing their fans

I don't see anyone saying that, I see people upset because they spent money on an incomplete L4D that they assumed based on Valve's statements would be feature complete one day and expanded upon. Instead they saw a sequel announcement instead of meaningful content or even long standing bugfixes.

and then completely disregard the statements confirming that commitment to support, is very hypocritical. This just further proves that in-general gamers these days are selfish, whiney cry-babies.

All of the name calling in the world isn't going to make your argument hold water. You are also not a superior form of gamer or something just because you took a particular side on this issue, get off your pedestal. People aren't whiners for disagreeing with you.

If you're going to blame people, blame them for blindly purchasing L4D based on promises that mean nothing. Valve is a company like any other and should be treated like one, not an e-buddy or something you feel loyalty towards. People should speak with their wallets and avoid purchasing the second game if they want to send a proper message to Valve.

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 2009, 14:23.

Valve have never not supported one of their games post release. They are saying they will do the same with L4D. How hard is that to understand? To hold Valve to their word on some statements, make a big stink about it because they think Valve are screwing their fans and then completely disregard the statements confirming that commitment to support, is very hypocritical. This just further proves that in-general gamers these days are selfish, whiney cry-babies.

No, they read them, they just don't share your optimism or interpretation. Is that so hard to understand?

Notice in the very first link provided from that search is a statement from Gabe regarding the fan outcry over L4D2....

“Doing a sequel in one year is new for Valve. But providing ongoing support for our titles after the initial launch isn't – it has been part of our philosophy since Half-Life was released ten and half years ago,” Newell said. “We see no reason to change that and will continue to support the over three million customers in the L4D community. E3 is a trade event where developers and publishers come to announce new games for the coming year. L4D2 — like any new product — requires an appearance at the show.”

New content will be arriving for the original Left 4 Dead, but fans need to be patient, Newell added. “Some in the community are concerned that the announcement of L4D2 implied a change in our plans for L4D1. We aren't changing our plans for L4D1. In addition to the recently released Survival Pack, we are releasing authoring tools for Mod makers, community matchmaking, 4x4 matchmaking, and more new content during the coming months for L4D1. We also agree with our customers that there needs to be an interoperability plan for players of L4D1 and L4D2, as multiplayer games are driven by the cohesiveness of their community.”

Now if those crying so loudly and quoting the previous statements from Valve would only read and absorb the current statements...instead they ignore them, and continue on with their tirades.

This comment was edited on Jun 26, 2009, 01:14.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=gabe+promises+L4D+content

I think complaints are pretty valid at least on the bugs front, L4D still has many unfixed. DLC is a different beast altogether.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 17:17.

I've heard people speak if it but never seen a reliable link.

Anyway, it is 50 bucks. You most likely did not have to increase the morgage on your house to get this game. If you think it is fun, then cool, get it. If you think it sucks balls but is somehow going to turn into The Shiz after a few updates, then why buy it in the first place?? I think it sounds highly unlikely, because either you like the gameplay L4D has to offer or you don't. But let's just say you hate the game and somehow a new map is going to suddenly justify everything. Then just wait for the fucking map before buying it and stop bitching about it! Some forum at blues can't help that you are retarded.

Uh toon, Valve said they going to provide that same level of service in exactly those words, it's been quoted and links provided many times on these forums.

I just hope you some day wake up and realize that you're one of the extreme minority of people not enjoying video games right now. And before you come back and complain "but I loved Stalker and Peggle and The Witcher and blah blah blah" just realize that you've got to be the most negative, pessamistic bloat on this board. I sometimes wonder if you sit around in your room with a bottle of tylenol, My Chemical Romance blasting, contemplating martyring yourself in the name of PC gaming.

Haha! Be carefull, you'll push jerykk off the cliff

But if you can't see the difference in the level of support then this discussion isn't going to get anywhere.

So theyareciomingforyou, Valve should be fucked over by its users just because they support one game better than the other? If they stretch really hard to support one game crazy good, should they be called greedy fuckers if they don't do that FOR EVERY FUCKING GAME SINCE THAT?

I guess you know what I think.

Fans of the original are mostly likely married with careers, houses and other responsibilities. I doubt most of them are lighting the Internet on fire with their fury over Bethesda's violation of this sacred IP.

Then there's Jerykk...nuff said.

To be fair, Fallout as a franchise was pretty dead before FO3 came out.

I think you mean "to be obvious?" After ten years and no new Fallout game (referring to a new RPG entry, not Tactics), both Interplay and the original developer sunk; it was kind of a surprise the franchise was picked up at all.

To fans of the originals, Fallout is pretty much dead.

Boohoo. The original games are old and the franchise needed to be updated if a third game were to come out.

This comment was edited on Jun 25, 2009, 15:26.

I mean, he's a good kid and well meaning, and I certainly don't agree that popularity isn't synonymous with quality, as Transformers 1 and 2 undoubtedly prove, but at a point you need to realize that everyone else is having a blast while you're wallowing in your own misery and complaining endlessly. It's almost always a bad thing. It sucked for The Grinch, it sucked for those kids in college that thought they were better than partying and graduated without any lifelong friends, and it has to suck in gaming when you go six months without a release you consider up to par.

If you're willing to accept that quality depends more on the game than the platform you'll be better off. The 360 has tons of great games, and beyond that, a good amount of games that are better on it than on the PC. And honestly, I've really come to respect that, after a day of staring at a monitor up close for 10 hours, the last thing I want to do to relax is more of the same. Sitting on a couch in front of a 52" HDTV with a buddy next to me and firing up some co-op anything beats nearly anything the PC has to offer these days.

With exceptions reserved for a bunch of games from the 90s, Civ4 and whatever Valve is up to right now.

I wish we had an iceburn emoticon around here because that was a pretty good one Beamer