Until now the weapons have been mostly unavailable to me. After this latest patch I earned several right away and the game has become a lot more interesting.

I don't think they should have linked these weapons to the achiements in the first place but things are better now. I'd like to see them update the engineer soon.

They can go ahead and keep making unlocks, I'll just keep unlocking them with a hack. It's their game and they can try to make it an MMO if they really want but that doesn't mean I have to play it like one.

So what? They will get those choices if they play the game for more than a day.

Really? So if I spend two days playing TF2, I will get every single unlockable? I doubt that very much.

Someone else having a Sandvich, Bonk, or anything else does not make the default weapons any less effective, which people like you don't seem to comprehend.

You are still completely missing the point. The point is that unlockables provide choices that players without unlockables don't have. More choice = better. Certain weapons and items are better for certain situations. A person who has the unlockables is better suited to adapt to any given situation.

Not everything is supposed to equal, which is what you are implying is required to reach game balance as you want everyone to have everything immediately.

Once again, missing the point. More choice = advantage. You can't honestly tell me that a Scout with all the unlockables has no advantage over a Scout with none. If you do claim that, it's pretty obvious that you don't play TF2 much. Actually, come to think of it, you admitted that earlier in this thread. I'm not sure you're even qualified to be arguing this.

Fuck, you want to talk about Quake being balanced? That's laughable. Yea random spawn with the weakest gun while others are running around with more powerful weapons.

In Quake, everybody spawns with the weakest weapons. However, everybody has the opportunity to get better weapons because they respawn in the map and you just have to stay alive long enough to get them. In TF2, you can't get better weapons until you unlock them, which at this point is completely random. It doesn't matter how good you are because the unlocks are random and getting them is a matter of playing time rather than skill.

If people don't like what they play (on the free weekends), they wouldn't be buying it and the community wouldn't be growing after a year and a half.

That's not my point at all. I never said that people don't like TF2. I said they don't like the unlockable system. Fortunately, they like TF2's core gameplay enough to overlook the system. However, if the system were improved, they'd like the game a lot more.

People will ALWAYS bitch and whine.

I'm pretty sure nobody would bitch and whine if the new weapons and items were instantly accessible.

Jerykk, you were panning TF2 when it first released.

I remember panning the limitations of the classes. However, with the new weapons and items, these limitations have been lessened. The problem is that the system of gaining these new weapons and items is flawed.

It's a free weekend you tool. Nobody is forcing anyone to like it, or buy it after trying it.

Once again, missing the point. You say "if you don't like it, don't play it" whenever someone brings up a criticism about any element of any game. In this case, I criticize the unlockable system of TF2 (not the whole game) and you say "if you don't like, don't play it." In another thread, you complain that the Smoker in L4D needs to be made more effective. If I were to use your argumentative logic, I'd say "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T PLAY IT!!"

Yea because that applies to this situation...you are a moron, always have been and continue to be.

I'm not the one saying "If you don't like it, don't play it" whenever somebody criticizes anything.

Anyway, I'll summarize my position because your reading comprehension is apparently lacking:

1) I don't think the unlockable system ruins TF2.
2) I don't think the unlockables ruin TF2.
3) I don't think any one unlockable is horribly overpowered.
4) I DO take issue with the way unlockables are attained. As this is a competitive multiplayer shooter, no one player should have an inherent advantage over another. A person with unlockables has more choices than a player without and greater choice is a definite advantage in any game. If unlockables were instantly available to everyone, nobody would have an inherent advantage and skill would be the sole distinction between players, as it should be.

This comment was edited on May 24, 2009, 17:24.

Yes. However, only some players actually get this choice.

So what? They will get those choices if they play the game for more than a day.

As I mentioned before, the unlockables provide more options which in turn opens up more tactical possibilities. A Heavy with the Sandvich can heal himself. A Heavy with no unlockables cannot. A Scout with Bonk can stun people. A Scout with no unlockables cannot. A Spy with unlockables can remain invisible forever if he stands still. A Spy without unlockables cannot. Unlockables = more choices.

Way to completely disregard the drawbacks to those choices. Someone else having a Sandvich, Bonk, or anything else does not make the default weapons any less effective, which people like you don't seem to comprehend. The game isn't broken because Joe Blow hasn't unlocked the Sandvich yet.

Oh, okay. So competitive multiplayer shooters don't need to be balanced. Gotcha.

Again, way to completely disregard (and not quote) that it's rock, paper, scissors design. Not everything is supposed to equal, which is what you are implying is required to reach game balance as you want everyone to have everything immediately.

They're doing it the wrong way.

No, they are doing it THEIR way. Fuck, you want to talk about Quake being balanced? That's laughable. Yea random spawn with the weakest gun while others are running around with more powerful weapons. By your definition of balance, everyone should have access to the same weapons immediately and not have to find the weapon in the level before using it.

I think you're forgetting about the free weekends that pop up with each content release, as well as the frequent discounts.

Im not forgetting anything, and I fail to see your point. If people don't like what they play (on the free weekends), they wouldn't be buying it and the community wouldn't be growing after a year and a half.

In any case, if you actually read around, you'll notice that nobody has anything really good to say about the unlockable system.

People bitched and whined at the last unlockable system, and they will bitch if they change it again. People will ALWAYS bitch and whine. Have you never visited the Steam forums before? It's 75% whining children, kinda like Blues News these days. Maybe if people kept their mouths shut for 5min, Valve wouldn't feel they had to keep changing the game.

Jerykk, you were panning TF2 when it first released. So now we are supposed to listen to what you have to say about how it 'was' a good game and no longer is? You are a hypocrite.

I really love it when people use that to defend something, as if it somehow excuses everything.

It's not a defense. It's a free weekend you tool. Nobody is forcing anyone to like it, or buy it after trying it. Everyone has known the direction they were taking TF2 for over a year now. You have CHOICES. Make one and shut the fuck up for a change.

You bought Terminator Salvation but the installer is broken?

Yea because that applies to this situation...you are a moron, always have been and continue to be.

You just like everyone else seems to completely disregard that the new weapons cannot be used in conjunction with the other weapons. You must decide which to use.

Yes. However, only some players actually get this choice. As I mentioned before, the unlockables provide more options which in turn opens up more tactical possibilities. A Heavy with the Sandvich can heal himself. A Heavy with no unlockables cannot. A Scout with Bonk can stun people. A Scout with no unlockables cannot. A Spy with unlockables can remain invisible forever if he stands still. A Spy without unlockables cannot. Unlockables = more choices.

With that said...I'm so fucking tired of hearing about "game balance", like everything has to be equal. It doesn't and SHOULDN'T.

Oh, okay. So competitive multiplayer shooters don't need to be balanced. Gotcha.

Regardless, there is no overpowering weapons that dominate or beat every other player based on weapon ability.

Again, it's about options (or lack thereof for people without unlockables).

Valve are working to make their games last, which is more than can be said about the majority of the industry.

They're doing it the wrong way. Your game should last because the fundamental gameplay has depth and replayability. This is why games like Quake, Starcraft and CS have lasted so long without any unlockables or achievements. If you have to rely on unlockables, it shows a distinct lack of faith in the longevity of your own product.

Is that why the TF2 numbers (which were already larger than the majority of other MP shooters, by thousands) has grown with each content release they do?

I think you're forgetting about the free weekends that pop up with each content release, as well as the frequent discounts. In any case, if you actually read around, you'll notice that nobody has anything really good to say about the unlockable system. If Valve took a survey and asked if people would rather have the unlockables instantly accessible to all, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people would say yes. The current unlockable system sucks but even without unlockables, the game is still fun. However, the game would be a lot more fun (and balanced) if the unlockables were instantly accessible.

Don't like it, don't play it.

I really love it when people use that to defend something, as if it somehow excuses everything. Change? Improvement? Who needs that? If you don't like it, don't play it! What's that? You thinking giving everybody infinite ammo is unbalanced? Don't like, don't play it, sucka! God mode is unbalanced? Don't like it, don't play it! You bought Terminator Salvation but the installer is broken? Don't like it, don't play it!

This comment was edited on May 24, 2009, 13:44.

When some players have access to weapons and items that other players don't, that upsets the balance of the game.

So you want to talk about balance? You just like everyone else seems to completely disregard that the new weapons cannot be used in conjunction with the other weapons. You must decide which to use. All of them have drawbacks, weaknesses to go along with their benefits.

With that said...I'm so fucking tired of hearing about "game balance", like everything has to be equal. It doesn't and SHOULDN'T. It's a rock, paper, scissors design. Not everything needs to work in every situation.

In a multiplayer shooter, the sole distinction between players should be skill, not loot.

Your opinion. Don't like it, don't play it. Regardless, there is no overpowering weapons that dominate or beat every other player based on weapon ability.

The only reason why Valve forces people to unlock the new weapons is because they want people to keep playing the game.

So did you figure that one all out on your own or did you have some help? That's the whole point of continued support and content for a game after release...to keep people playing the game. Their game, their choices. Don't like them, don't play it.

I don't think this is really necessary because people would enjoy the game regardless of unlockables.

EVERY game loses it's player base eventually. Valve are working to make their games last, which is more than can be said about the majority of the industry. Valve should be applauded, not criticized, for supporting their products, even if you don't like what they do.

All Valve is doing is pissing off people who actually care about game balance.

See my prior comment on game-balance, which you clearly don't get the philosophy behind the TF2 design. Pissing them off, really? Is that why the TF2 numbers (which were already larger than the majority of other MP shooters, by thousands) has grown with each content release they do? You clearly don't have a goddamn clue.

Just because something is available, doesn't mean you must have it, or you are entitled to it without having to do something to get it.

Way to completely miss the point. This is about game balance, not entitlement. When some players have access to weapons and items that other players don't, that upsets the balance of the game. Even if the unlockables themselves are balanced with the existing weapons, their mere presence offers extra tactics and opportunities that wouldn't otherwise be available. In a multiplayer shooter, the sole distinction between players should be skill, not loot.

The only reason why Valve forces people to unlock the new weapons is because they want people to keep playing the game. I don't think this is really necessary because people would enjoy the game regardless of unlockables. All Valve is doing is pissing off people who actually care about game balance.

This isn't Diablo where loot and leveling are the only reasons to play the game.

Loot & leveling are not the reasons to play TF2, never were and still aren't. The gameplay still is. All this really does is make the self-entitled & instant gratification dicks stand out in a crowd...and there are a lot of them in gaming. Just because something is available, doesn't mean you must have it, or you are entitled to it without having to do something to get it.

I don't play TF2 very often, simply because I dont have time, and there are other games I generally want to play over TF2. But I really don't give two shits about the unlockables because they aren't going to change whether I have fun playing the game or not. If I get them, fine. If I don't, fine.

People really need to take a step back into reality.

I don't mind unlockables. I do mind when they affect gameplay. Unlocking stuff like character models, customizations, weapon skins, etc is fine and great, but I hate when it starts changing the game.

It did not use to be this way before. Grinding in a FPS is a modern invention/corruption, circa BF2. Many of us are old school gamers - we didn't have to unlock weapons in TFC, Quake, UT, etc. It's become an atrocious and lazy way to keep people playing - and only common because people accept it.

Agreed 110%. I really don't understand why Valve insists on unlockables. They should have enough faith in the core gameplay and longevity of TF2 to refrain from using cheap incentives to keep players going. This isn't Diablo where loot and leveling are the only reasons to play the game.

I'm surprised people don't like the new system for these kind of reasons. It's pretty common for FPS games to have an unlock system of some sort!

It did not use to be this way before. Grinding in a FPS is a modern invention/corruption, circa BF2. Many of us are old school gamers - we didn't have to unlock weapons in TFC, Quake, UT, etc. It's become an atrocious and lazy way to keep people playing - and only common because people accept it.

The right way to do this is like everyone else has been saying: give everyone everything right off the bat.

lol i was doing well last night too, topping the charts. I totally didn't realize it was due to the high noobcount thanks to the free weekend.

I was all like "Wow I'm so good at this all of a sudden!"

But perhaps this system is just an elaborate test for Steam Cloud.

See below, taken from the above linked TF2 Blog post.

For the last number of months we've been working on using the Steam Cloud to store a player's inventory. With that finally in place, we were able to deploy a new system focused on the giving of items to players.

Does nobody read anymore? Robin Walker has stated publicly that the unlocks are broken and not working as tuned. The weapons, etc should be much more frequent, with the hats being much more rare.

They are working on it.

*sigh* Valve and their silly social experiments...

I guess this system, if it worked, would be a better one than the tied-to-silly-achievements one. I have gotten 3 unlocks, 2 I didn't already have, but my son, who was playing with me the whole time, got none. Weird.

And I have to say, I love these free weekends. How else could I consistently be top on a full server with a kill/death ratio of 3 to 1? I swear that I'm being nice to the noobs, though!

I've played for about four hours and haven't gotten anything at all. I haven't even gotten any duplicates of the weapons that I'd previously earned.

Also, is it just me or is the spy's backstab even more bugged, now? I seem to only be successful about a third of the time, even on stationary targets.

This comment was edited on May 23, 2009, 10:41.

I'm surprised people don't like the new system for these kind of reasons. It's pretty common for FPS games to have an unlock system of some sort!

But the problem is that it rewards those that play the game the most, which simply acts to disadvantage newer users.

But perhaps this system is just an elaborate test for Steam Cloud. I know they added support for it to TF2 a while back and this is a larger scale event than key binds.

:O I'm surprised people don't like the new system for these kind of reasons. It's pretty common for FPS games to have an unlock system of some sort! This game is the first I know of to base it on time and not kills (XP) though.

I guess that eliminates the desire to go to achievement servers, but it still screws the casual player.

Now I can get mowed down with new weapons left and right just because I don't play often enough. Way to go Valve.

Why can't they just give everything to everybody at the same time and let people play the game?