His silly distinction that "expect it to be good" and "going to be good" are so different is asinine. People say "it's gonna be so good!" all the time.

People who say such things would be demonstrating an aspect of fanboyism.

If you are expressing certainty about a product about which you have no knowledge, and your only reason for doing so is that it was made by a certain company, or a certain person, then you are being a fanboy. That is, in essence, the definition of "fanboy".

Actually Bhruic was being very rational, unprovocative and helpful in trying to clarify some very questionable ways in which you are making your argument.

Well he called me an irrational fanboy for simpling stating Dragon Age is going to be a good game, so... at worst we're even.

His silly distinction that "expect it to be good" and "going to be good" are so different is asinine. People say "it's gonna be so good!" all the time. He's just deflecting.

The end point, that no one has refuted, is that a marketing delay by the parent company has NO effect on the product itself other than possibly more polish, which is a good thing. Attacking the game itself for the marketing delay is the essence of silliness.

I'm on the outside here, I thought Jade Empire was very enjoyable (on the PC, where the combat and animations were much snappier.) I liked it better than ME, though I still enjoyed ME.

However once they started working on consoles and only porting to PC, their games have consistently gotten easier, more simple and shorter. Yes even KotoR was this way compared to the Baldur's Gate games or NWN.

DA has been in the works for 6 years now. Sure it's been in the background while Bioware worked on their console lineup, but I say it will still 'feel' like a PC game with more depth, complexity and longevity. Especially when you consider the toolset (which probably won't be on consoles and if it is, it will be a stunty little click-and drag parts around pre-made maps.)

Personally, I'm an optimist in all things. I look at it this way. Bioware has been making the game for 6 years now. EA has had it's grubby little paws on it for a bit over a year. They couldn't have fubar'd it for PC that much. Thats about long enough to decide to have a console version and pull people off other projects to convert it. The game is a PC game at heart.

This comment was edited on Apr 7, 2009, 11:15.

If I have high expectations for a movie because it is directed by David Lynch, and I love David Lynch movies, is that "irrational?"

It's not irrational to have high expectations, no.

I expect it to be a great game.

Also not irrational.

That is not irrational or even fanboyism, that's a simple recognition that I like Bioware PC focused games.

True, and if that's all you had done, I wouldn't have made a comment. There's a difference between "I expect it to be a good game", and "It's going to be a good game". One expresses an opinion, the other makes a conclusion that, unless you have played the game, you're not in a position to make.

Actually Bhruic was being very rational, unprovocative and helpful in trying to clarify some very questionable ways in which you are making your argument.

That's the most idiotic thing I ever heard.

You're an idiot.

With these two quotes I think Im going to rest my case.

This, however, is a trait. Making conclusions about the quality of a game that you haven't played is irrational - no matter if you're concluding the game will be great, or the game will be horrible. Feel free to theorize, but if you're expressing certainty, then you're being a fanboy.

That's the most idiotic thing I ever heard.

If I have high expectations for a movie because it is directed by David Lynch, and I love David Lynch movies, is that "irrational?" No, it is not, it's a simple recognition that I like David Lynch movies.

When Bioware was a PC developer they made great games. Their console (and then ported to PC) efforts have not been as great, but as Dragon Age is PC focused I expect it to be a great game. That is not irrational or even fanboyism, that's a simple recognition that I like Bioware PC focused games.

You're an idiot.

The delay was very disappointing, but understandable to a degree. They wanted only to have one marketing campaign. This is a rare case.

Lets just wait and see shall we? Personally I think Dragon Age will be over-simplified and boring, and to think that the final PC client will be unchanged if they decide to do things differently on the consoles is just naive. But that is just my opinion and I hope Im proven wrong, maybe it turns out to be a worthy successor to Baldurs Gate 2.

I simply don't think a marketing delay has ANY impact on the quality of the game itself

Thinking the marketing delay would have an impact on the quality isn't a trait of fanboyism.

It's going to be a great game by a great studio in the vein of games we all grew up on and loved.

This, however, is a trait. Making conclusions about the quality of a game that you haven't played is irrational - no matter if you're concluding the game will be great, or the game will be horrible. Feel free to theorize, but if you're expressing certainty, then you're being a fanboy.

And there is your problem right there, diagnosis? Fanboism.

Fanboism, a psychological state whereby complete and blind devotion to a person or persons makes one completely oblivious to the failings, problems and gross shortcomings of said person/persons.

Tell me StingingVelvet, did you consider Mass Effect an awesome game? How did you feel when EA bought BioWare??

I am not a Bioware fanboy. Jade Empire sucked, Knights of the Old Republic was very overrated and while I loved Mass Effect, that has a lot more to do with my love of 80's sci-fi than the game itself. I never even played Neverwinter Nights because I was taking a break from gaming at the time.

I simply don't think a marketing delay has ANY impact on the quality of the game itself, and if you do I would argue you're the one with the blind devotion... to being bitchy.

This comment was edited on Apr 7, 2009, 04:56.

PC gamers love to complain when console games come out first and PC versions second, saying they should delay and release them all at the same time. When this happens the other way around though PC gamers complain that we should get the game first.

I think the key difference is that this doesn't happen the other way around. You never see console games being delayed 8 months so they can be released with the PC version.

An EA forced marketing delay does not make the Bioware developed game any less awesome

And there is your problem right there, diagnosis? Fanboism.

Fanboism, a psychological state whereby complete and blind devotion to a person or persons makes one completely oblivious to the failings, problems and gross shortcomings of said person/persons.

Tell me StingingVelvet, did you consider Mass Effect an awesome game? How did you feel when EA bought BioWare??

A love letter? More like a Dear John letter. This game was a PC exclusive... that became a 360 to release later... to the current it's done but you can't have it because we want a simultaneous release. You may be ok with it but I'm not.

We the PC gamers are the ones who bought all their early titles, we were loyal fans, we even bought some of their crap console ports for the PC, and this is how they repay us... when they finally get around to making another game designed specifically for the PC? A game that is supposed to be a return to their roots... which is now tarnished with this bullshit EA decision to screw over the PC gamers because if they release it on PC now it will somehow negatively effect the consoles?

Clearly I am not the only PC Gamer that feels this way. I may change my mind by the time they are finally ready to bless us with the PC release but I doubt it. Negative PR has caused more than a few well made games to flounder. Not to mention judging from their last few releases I feel they've lost touch with what made their (PC) games great. Yeah, I know selling a shit load of games at Walmart is what they are really shooting for now. So good luck to them.

Is it really fun to be that petty? Really?

1. They've stated the extra time will allow for more polish.

2. An EA forced marketing delay does not make the Bioware developed game any less awesome. If anything the extra time means more awesome.

3. They've been very frank in interviews that Dragon Age is first and foremost a PC title and nothing about that is changing.

4. PC gamers love to complain when console games come out first and PC versions second, saying they should delay and release them all at the same time. When this happens the other way around though PC gamers complain that we should get the game first.

In short, get over yourself. It's going to be a great game by a great studio in the vein of games we all grew up on and loved. Don't let petty B.S. ruin it for you.

Reading about DLC in advance of a games release putts me off buying it now. I might have been interested in picking this up for the PS3 to avoid any limited activation DRM or GFW bullshit, but after seeing some games not getting DLC across all platforms (eg Fallout 3 on PS3) I don't want to commit to buying it until I know I won't be left out of the loop.

DRM in PC games and platform exclusive DLC has killed pre-ordering for me and has certainly resulted in me not buying quite a few games recently, why do publishers insist on making it so hard for me to give them my money?

It's just an opinion Fion. No evidence needed. Like most of what gets posted on the Internet it's just somebodies opinion...

Edit: As far as the hold up for the consoles... I'd bet it's the PS3 that is late to the party so EA wants to put the brakes on the PC version. No matter it's done either way...

This comment was edited on Apr 7, 2009, 00:31.

This game has become like Shadowrun and Hellgate, where I am actively hoping it fails pretty hard.

Your either bored, or a retard. I'm not sure which. A little evidense to back up your ridiculous statement would help the 'I'm not a retard' case.

as was Knights of the Nine for Oblivion.

Really? That storyline was so godawful boring. It felt cheap and tacked on. Some of the side missions in Oblivion (including the stealth/thief questline) were really good.

I think what really bothers gamers is how developers put out additional content (be it expansion packs or DLC) and totally overlook bugs, glitches, etc. I remember a community patch for Oblivion that fixed over 1000 bugs... that Bethesda ignored. Instead, they release some cheap DLC and later The Shivering Isles, each with their own set of bugs.

If Bioware is going to set up a plan where additional content is release over the next year or two, great. But don't ignore the bugs of the main game. Fix those first.

But seeing how this will be published by EA, chances are slim to none.

"The whole game is a love letter to PC gamers and Baldur's Gate, but you take it as a sign Bioware doesn't care about PC gamers? I seriously wonder how you got to that conclusion."

A love letter? More like a Dear John letter. This game was a PC exclusive... that became a 360 to release later... to the current it's done but you can't have it because we want a simultaneous release. You may be ok with it but I'm not.

We the PC gamers are the ones who bought all their early titles, we were loyal fans, we even bought some of their crap console ports for the PC, and this is how they repay us... when they finally get around to making another game designed specifically for the PC? A game that is supposed to be a return to their roots... which is now tarnished with this bullshit EA decision to screw over the PC gamers because if they release it on PC now it will somehow negatively effect the consoles?

Clearly I am not the only PC Gamer that feels this way. I may change my mind by the time they are finally ready to bless us with the PC release but I doubt it. Negative PR has caused more than a few well made games to flounder. Not to mention judging from their last few releases I feel they've lost touch with what made their (PC) games great. Yeah, I know selling a shit load of games at Walmart is what they are really shooting for now. So good luck to them.

Hmm funny, PC gamers have been getting free post-release content for years and years. Bioware's own Neverwinter Nights has gotten free content updates 6 years after the game released.

Thanks to consoles, now we have to PAY for the updates, and 90% of the time those paid updates are about 1/4th what they were when we got them for FREE! Not to mention when shit-heads like EA overtly and clearly remove stuff from the game before release and then charge for them afterwords.

I am hoping that at least, the DLC for the PC will be stuff for the editor. New tools, new texture packs, etc.


Last, I think some of you guys who say you won't even be playing the game 2 years from now must be console gamers. PC gamers, with a solid, expandable and modable game can still be playing it 5 + years later. ESPECIALLY with a game like DA that will come with an editor to let us create our own custom content. Look at the Neverwinter Nights community. They release new mods on a daily basic, and NWN1 came out 02!

So if the DA toolset is half as good as the NWN1/2 one was, there will be folks in the PC community making mods for that game in half a decade. Plenty of time for a tun of DLC (hopefully free, ESPECIALLY if it's stuff for the editor.)

This comment was edited on Apr 7, 2009, 00:17.

Pay DLC IS a product of consoles. XBL proved companies can nickel and dime the customer and they will blindly open their wallets for it.

If they have not worked out the bugs in the system (look at the COMPLETE FIASCO that Fallout 3 was) I'll pass.

I said it came from consoles, but I don't think it's purpose is console-specific. There is a major difference between where something starts and something's intent. The intent with DLC is to curb resale and enhance profits through digital distribution and smaller releases.

As for Fallout 3, while I agree the GFW-Live! system is flawed and, in minor ways, terrible, the Fallout 3 DLC is still a success in my opinion. The Pitt is a great questline well worth the $10 it costs, as was Knights of the Nine for Oblivion. The real goal here should be to support well done and worthwhile DLC while shunning the crappy overpriced ones... then we get QUALITY DLC, which is just as cool as quality expansions, in my opinion.