I agree, believe me. Expectations or not though, it clearly wasn't as pleasing for PC gamers as shown in the sales. Repetitive gameplay is more and more common no matter what title, and that's part of the problem. It's not actually 50 hours of gameplay when you've done everything the game has to offer after 5 or 10, and you just spend the last 40 doing them again and again. So why is it a $50 game if it offers so little? Because they "deserve" the money.

And again, the hypocrisy of some people does little to help the situation. If it really was a bad game, they wouldn't have played all the way through. Those kind of people did have fun, but they didn't have full-price fun. And odds are, those kind of people aren't going to buy it later when it comes down to their price. I'm not defending them, they can burn in hell for all I care because they're just as much the problem as the industry is. That's my ultimate point - it's not just the pirate community's fault, it's not just the industry's fault; both are contributing to the problem and neither are looking for a solution.

No one deserves to have their game pirated. They deserve not to have good sales but they don't "deserve" it being stolen. Those two concepts are not the same thing.

Make the game good first, u make crap you deserve it.

I may be mistaken, but didn't they complain about piracy with Assassin's Creed? That was a game deserving of criticism. Like you said, it was fun but not as fun as its price would indicate. Thus, it didn't sell well because apparently a lot of other people felt the same way about its price.

In Assassin's Creed's defense, they never promised some clone of Thief in the first place. If you played it without expectations, it's a pretty enjoyable game with a decent narrative and amazing engine. The gameplay gets repetitive after awhile for sure but that's an accusation you can make about any game these days. I think it was pretty good for what it was and the port was very well done with the exception of the menu UI.

And look at Gears of War - that game didn't do badly on PC because of piracy, it did badly because it was bad, or at least far from the caliber PC gamers want. And Epic says they won't do Gears 2 on PC because it was pirated? I doubt any PC gamer here is all broken up about that. Gears on PC reaped a tiny reward, like it should have. But don't turn around and blame the very people you're trying to sell your product to for its failure. As a consumer, it's not my fault Epic released a bad game.

Thats fine but Gears of War isn't every console port. Just the assumption that every console port sucks is stupid. Hell there are people around here posting ahead of time they will pirate a game if its ported from a console. That's not really helping prove publishers wrong about piracy or make them want to continue making games for our favorite platform. It's fine to vote with your wallet but be respectful and for christs sake, don't be the hypocrite who calls a game shit after he played it from beginning to end and paid zip for it.

Bethesda said in their last interview that it's a major concern but that they remain dedicated to the PC platform in hopes that consumers will make the right choice. I suspect if Fallout 3 is heavily pirated then we won't be seeing future Bethesda games on the PC though.

Good for them. I will be surprised if Fallout 3 isn't heavily pirated on the PC, given the many fans that aren't sure about Bethesda's direction for their beloved series. But it will sell like hotcakes on the Xbox360 and PS3, and their should still be a decent amount of PC sales. It may not pay off on the PC like they would hope, but they can afford to not worry about it.

I may be mistaken, but didn't they complain about piracy with Assassin's Creed? That was a game deserving of criticism. Like you said, it was fun but not as fun as its price would indicate. Thus, it didn't sell well because apparently a lot of other people felt the same way about its price. And look at Gears of War - that game didn't do badly on PC because of piracy, it did badly because it was bad, or at least far from the caliber PC gamers want. And Epic says they won't do Gears 2 on PC because it was pirated? I doubt any PC gamer here is all broken up about that. Gears on PC reaped a tiny reward, like it should have. But don't turn around and blame the very people you're trying to sell your product to for its failure. As a consumer, it's not my fault Epic released a bad game. If I spent years and years working my ass off and the only thing that came out for my effort is Daikatana, sure it's gonna sting my ego pretty bad when everyone says it sucks, but who made it? If it takes 5 years to take a shit, change your damn diet.


This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 12:19.

Many of the so called "mediocre" or "subpar console ports" are well reviewed by both users and critics.

Since when does it matter what other people think of a game? I played Gears of War and found it boring and mundane. However, the critics and console kiddies think it's one of the best games evar. Does that mean I have to go buy it?

the developers that complain the loudest about piracy almost always happen to be the ones releasing the sub-par games.

That's the thing, it's the pirates who are judging the games as such half the time. Many of the so called "mediocre" or "subpar console ports" are well reviewed by both users and critics. I am perfectly fine with shitty games failing just because they suck. I'm not cool with people just playing up a game's flaws to excuse their shitty habit.

Really they need to remove the pirates from the equation somehow and I think multiplayer is the easiest way to do that. I just hope there is still enough of a market left for strong single player titles to exist.

Console versions cannibalize sales of PC versions. Therefore, we should get rid of console versions or at the very least, delay them for a year after the PC version.

I suspect if Fallout 3 is heavily pirated then we won't be seeing future Bethesda games on the PC though

Morrowind was heavily pirated. Oblivion was heavily pirated, on both PC and 360. Big name games with tons of hype will always be heavily pirated. I don't think that's going to stop Bethesda from making PC ports if they still remain profitable.


This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 12:08.

I'm not saying piracy doesn't exist, and in poorer countries it certainly is rampant. But not here, not in the US. If the industry wants to make a dent in piracy, maybe they could start with the corner-stores in Russia and China that sell nothing but pirated goods. I agree with you on pricing though. $50 is a lot to pay for something when if I want a manual or reference card to use alongside the game, I've got to print it or write it myself. I'm not trying to say piracy is OK, not by any means. Developers who make good games deserve to be made rich by their sales. I'm just saying... the developers that complain the loudest about piracy almost always happen to be the ones releasing the sub-par games. It is disgusting that every developer thinks they deserve to be rich just because they released a video game. It just doesn't work that way. If you want to get rich you've got to make something people feel is worth buying. Hell, not even that is a guarantee, if games like Deus Ex are any indication. But getting rich off a shitty game is pure luck, and rarely happens twice.

Edit: That is also a good point. If I'm defending anyone, I'm defending people that pirate because there's no demo. Pirating a game, playing it all the way through once, or maybe even two or three times, that's not cool unless you do actually buy it in a timely fashion. Support the developers that give you good games. But again, I'm not defending pirates at all. However, what other option is there anymore? All people can do is sink that $50 and pray to whatever god that it wasn't a waste of their hard-earned money. I just give it a pass myself and wait for the word of mouth to spread around, but that's really not a fair way because I'm making my purchase decisions based on the information from people who did get screwed. I just hate that the industry is out to screw the honest customer and then have the audacity to insult and berate them for it.


This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 12:06.

It's an ongoing corruption of capitalism and free-market economy. Once upon a time, people bought the good stuff and the bad stuff faded into red-ink obscurity. Now, people still buy the good stuff but the guys who make the bad stuff fervently believe they're entitled to the same success that comes with making the good stuff, but without actually making the good stuff. They make a shitty title, and god damn it, you filthy consumers will buy that shit and make them rich! They deserve it!

I read an interview with a dev awhile back on Gamasutra where he said the following that really hit home with me - "I don't care if people download my game and hate it. That's fine but don't download my game, play it to the end and then say you didn't like it and won't pay for it. That's just lame."

It's an ongoing corruption of capitalism and free-market economy. Once upon a time, people bought the good stuff and the bad stuff faded into red-ink obscurity. Now, people still buy the good stuff but the guys who make the bad stuff fervently believe they're entitled to the same success that comes with making the good stuff, but without actually making the good stuff. They make a shitty title, and god damn it, you filthy consumers will buy that shit and make them rich! They deserve it!

Piracy is just not as rampant as every chanter wants us all to believe, and if you make a product worth buying, people buy it.

Oh BS man, piracy is every bit as rampant as they say it is. The number of torrent sites alone boggles the mind, thats ignoring Usenet and other P2P alternatives. Piracy is astoundingly widespread these days and easily accessible thanks to BitTorrent. People just hide behind the usual arguments "every download isnt a player!", "they wouldn't have bought it anyways!", "just a console port!!!!", etc. No one with a brain is fooled by that crap. I see people of varying tech levels all day every day bring in their computers for me to fix and what is on almost all of them? Porn, movies and games.

The trouble is that they blame ALL of their problems on piracy alone. Piracy is a major factor thats hindering the platform but it's not the only one. Lack of demos is a real problem, people turn to piracy to demo the product and once you have something for free it's quite easy to use it's flaws as a justification to not purchase it. Pricing is also a problem, Assassin's Creed is relatively shallow but still fun - unfortunately it's about $20.00 more expensive than it should be. I especially shouldn't be paying retail price when I dont get a box or manual.

I'm personally just sick of publishers blaming piracy but then doing nothing about it. Fine blame it, who cares what is to blame. Just DO something about it. They just give up and move onto the consoles, its depressing. Try something for a change.


This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 11:51.

I think that's what burns me up the most. The fact that as an honest consumer I cannot get a refund on a totally shitty game. Even though they are trying to fight piracy on the PC, they are undermining themselves by basically waging a war with their legitimate consumer base as well. Because of this, in the future I won't be able to buy a title on the PC anyway.

Perhaps that's true - I'll assume that it is since I don't follow it much. Still, whether they're worried or not, they're doing it the right way - going on faith that they made a good product and allowing their good product to sell itself. I hope it pays off for them, but I'd honestly be surprised if it didn't work. Piracy is just not as rampant as every chanter wants us all to believe, and if you make a product worth buying, people buy it. And on the other side of the coin, if you make a terrible product and saddle it with DRM schemes to hinder resale as much as possible, any semi-intelligent person knows they're taking a huge risk buying that title because it probably does suck and that's why it's so DRM-laden - they don't want the secret to get out until people pay to learn it. I always wind up citing the Hulk movie (I think Ang Lee directed it?) as an example of the real reason the industry fears piracy. In the industry's eye, piracy killed that movie. In everyone else's eyes, that movie was awful and the unusually early pirated release let people learn that before they put money down on it, money they probably would never have gotten back. In other words, piracy let the industry's dirty secret out of the bag. And who did the industry blame for that movie's failure? Certainly not the "talented" writers and staff that made that movie. Imagine if Ed Wood blamed piracy for the failures of his movies.

In the game industry it's even worse. At least at a movie theater they might give me a refund... with a video game, as soon as it's open you can't return it. Couple that with how very few games have demos anymore, and you're practically taking a leap of faith with your $50 because if that game sucks, it's gonna collect dust on your shelf and you're never gonna see that $50 again, especially if the industry keeps restricting its titles more and more to try to cut out GameStop and the like.


This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 11:44.

And I don't think I've ever heard any concern about PC piracy from Bethesda regarding Fallout 3.

Bethesda said in their last interview that it's a major concern but that they remain dedicated to the PC platform in hopes that consumers will make the right choice. I suspect if Fallout 3 is heavily pirated then we won't be seeing future Bethesda games on the PC though.

Either way, it wouldn't work effectively as anti-piracy measure. Your example of Alcohol 120% isn't really a great one - you can find it at every torrent site known to man.

Ahh, damn. That sucks. I thought I would have been at least better than the mess we see now.

Regardless of what is killing PC gaming, I'd like to play non-MMO or indie titles in the future so it would be nice if it could all stop. I play my Nintendo DS more than my PC these days, it's sad but there just isn't many good games period. I've got Fallout3 and Left 4 Dead to look forward to, that's about it

I think it's time for everyone to assume that if a developer or publisher is blaming piracy for not releasing on PC or for shitty PC sales, it's actually just a shitty game that wouldn't or didn't make it on par with the quality PC gamers expect. Piracy isn't killing PC gaming because not many people steal the shit titles, let alone pay for them. And I don't think I've ever heard any concern about PC piracy from Bethesda regarding Fallout 3. Well, other than Bethesda saying they'd use transparent copy protection similar to Oblivion, if you could even call Oblivion's method copy protection at all.


This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 11:21.

But.....could someone please tell me what is wrong with - instead of DRM on the game disks - having to register and tie an e-mail address first with a unique serial number and an account name to the game with a specific PC...a one time 'activation' if you will?

There's nothing really wrong with it but people will bitch about it anyways. Frankly I think a lot of the piracy stuff by the publishers is overblown but I also see a lot of anti-DRM stuff that's the same way. Piracy is fine they say, just ignore those thousands of torrent sites. Seems like some people get worked up whenever they feel that their free supply of games might be threatened.

Either way, it wouldn't work effectively as anti-piracy measure. Your example of Alcohol 120% isn't really a great one - you can find it at every torrent site known to man.

There is no real way to kill piracy altogether. The best they can do is tie multiplayer components into online accounts and make the best of digital distro. Be competitive on pricing and try to offer a solid product. Move to a different market if none of that works because there isn't really much else they could do.