You are implying that the price drops in the music industry are caused by less piracy? Every release of every band that someone wants, someone can get for free by pirating it. That has not changed. It has not gotten harder either.

Sorry, you're getting a bit confused. The music software industry specialises in recording software (like Cubase, Sonar, Logic) and virtual instruments (multi-gigabyte virtual instruments that gives a realistic sound through MIDI programming). The price of Cubase (protected by Syncrosoft) has fallen considerably, as have the price of virtual instruments from East West and others protected by iLok. Several years ago there was rampant piracy but now that has ceased (the latest versions of Cubase haven't been pirated, despite being available for 2yrs). There is a definite benefit to the legitimate user here.

I guess you missed the part where the PC is an open platform and that this is impossible in the first place.

Impossible to mandate? Sure. However, if there is a benefit for the consumer then it becomes desirable. Nobody forced monitors to support HDCP but now they virtually all do, so we're not talking about anything far-fetched here. TPM chips are already used in laptops for use with Vista's Bitlocker feature.

If you require some sort of hardware chip to check to ensure its running signed code only then someone will simply emulate those functions.

Just like people emulate the iLok? Oh wait, they can't. The advantage with these hardware chips is that the routing can be edited and render any crack void, should one ever be made (seemingly unlikely but not impossible).

Which is exactly why it would never work on the PC. People will not tolerate having something tell them they can't watch a movie, piece of music or play a game.

HDCP. 'nuff said.

Hardware dongles work for niche markets only

Well, lots of businesses disagree and the TPM has got plenty of support, even if it has been very slow off the ground. Will it work? I don't know. The sheer scale of the industry might mean it's cracked in weeks but the potential for it working is there, whereas it simply isn't when it comes to DRM.

All I know is consumers are getting fucked over with delayed ports, limited activations, CD-checks and the like. If a hardware solution can eliminate piracy like it has for the music software industry then it should be strongly considered, as it will benefit consumers.

Just look at the current financial mess, most of it is emotional and makes no sense, but enough financial guru's have chanted the same issue over and over, and we all believe.

LOL

Are you Phil Gramm?

Nonsense. The point is the TPM is a hardware dongle through which components of the application are run through; not having a chip simply would mean the program wouldn't run at all. It's exactly like the hardware dongles employed by Pace (iLok) and Syncrosoft (neither of which are currently cracked), except supposedly much stronger. It is not something a "tech savvy friend" could simply bypass.

I guess you missed the part where the PC is an open platform and that this is impossible in the first place. The only way you could achieve it would be to force a company like Intel to mandate it in all reference designs - but what about non-reference motherboards? If you require some sort of hardware chip to check to ensure its running signed code only then someone will simply emulate those functions. Someone will provide a non-reference motherboard without this piece of hardware and someone else will provide a mechanism to overcome any security checks. Look at console piracy for examples of that in action. Industry co-operation between all of the hardware giants, software companies and game developers/publishers like that is almost unheard of.

Hardware chips very possibly present the best option for protecting against piracy.

Which is exactly why it would never work on the PC. People will not tolerate having something tell them they can't watch a movie, piece of music or play a game. It doesn't matter that they paid for it(or not), people don't like being restricted on what they deem is their own property. There are countless examples of this in the history of the software industry. Hardware dongles work for niche markets only and yes the music software industry is a niche market compared to something like games or regular office applications.


This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 17:15.

That may be Tumbler. The problem to me seems that when you stagger releases, you lose a lot of the impulse buying that would occur if the game were launched simultaneously. Take a game like Assassin's Creed. The hype machine really worked at getting that game more sales than it would have otherwise. PC gamers, on the other hand got to watch as the hype died away and the game was made to stand on its own merits long before it ever shipped on PC. The result was that it sold poorly on PC.

When I heard about Assassin's Creed for the PC, I was stoked. But by the time it shipped, I had heard so much negativity about (some warranted, but a good deal of it wasn't) that I wasn't really all that excited about it. I got it on a discount from Gogamer.com, and while I enjoyed it, all of the incessant negative comments about it sort of tainted my view of it to the point that I was noticing minor flaws I might have otherwise ignored had it not been dissected and over-analyzed countless times on the internet.

Me, I think they are ensuring poor sales on PC by staggering releases like this, but of course the old scapegoat of piracy will be blamed.

Hardware chips very possibly present the best option for protecting against piracy. They currently protect the music software industry, which has since seen products dropping vastly in price to reflect the absence of piracy.

You are implying that the price drops in the music industry are caused by less piracy? Every release of every band that someone wants, someone can get for free by pirating it. That has not changed. It has not gotten harder either. Furthermore the reason prices of have dropped is because of lower sales numbers from traditional cd sales, increased competition from digital distribution and the outright bypassing of the record labels by the music artists that sell directly to the consumer. More and more established artists are realizing that they don't need the record labels anymore taking their money.

Is it because they are afraid that many console gamers would prefer to pirate the game on PC rather than pay for it on a console? Surely they aren't suggesting that Console gamers are all thieves too?

I think it's all about image. PC games getting pirated is a very obvious activity. I think console game piracy is something that is out-of-sight,out-of-mind. I think it's behind the scenes and since it does not appear to be a problem it doesn't get treated as one.

A big company that makes a big expensive game feels that seeing their new game paraded around like a whore on the bitorrent sites makes people less willing to pay money for it on other platforms. (Because it looks to be worth less than the asking price)

I think it embarrass's them, share holders or investors look at it and say, "Are we losing money?"

So I think the biggest reason for waiting to release a game on the PC is to preserve the appearance that the game is a valuable commodity. And it seems consistent that if a company holds back the PC release of it's software it means that the product is HIGHLY overpriced and they don't want the piracy / retail sales numbers to make it that much more obvious.

Good games sell well, and get pirated well.
Bad games sell like shit, and get pirated well.

Everything gets pirated.
This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 16:26.

Sorry to go back a bit but...

Hardware chips would never work. There would always be some vendor willing to make a non-chipped motherboard just to one-up the others. Plus every casual user usually has a tech savvy friend who could remove/defeat it.

Nonsense. The point is the TPM is a hardware dongle through which components of the application are run through; not having a chip simply would mean the program wouldn't run at all. It's exactly like the hardware dongles employed by Pace (iLok) and Syncrosoft (neither of which are currently cracked), except supposedly much stronger. It is not something a "tech savvy friend" could simply bypass.

Hardware chips very possibly present the best option for protecting against piracy. They currently protect the music software industry, which has since seen products dropping vastly in price to reflect the absence of piracy. However, it does completely prevent resale. So it has already worked for part of the software industry. Obviously games are a different scenario because they are much more widely used and there would be more people attempting to crack it. The potential if it worked though is the elimination of piracy and no need for CD-checks or the current limited number of activations - it would give power back to the consumer.

Atari have already said they want to use the TPM when it reaches a large enough install base and they believe it will stop piracy altogether.

All I know is that something needs to be done. If piracy is eliminated then it is a good thing - it means that publishers could let users download an entire game like Fallout 3 to demo it for a particular period of time without risk of it being cracked. It means cheaper prices. It means simultaneous releases.

Ignoring the now-discussed-to-death effect of piracy on gaming, I have to wonder - What difference does it make to the console version if the game is pirated on PC from the day of the console release or a year after?

Is it because they are afraid that many console gamers would prefer to pirate the game on PC rather than pay for it on a console? Surely they aren't suggesting that Console gamers are all thieves too?

On a side note, I really like the new preview function.

The guy's piracy comments seemed to be purely designed to push all the piss-off-buttons of the people on bluesnews.

I don't relish the idea of returning to the old days, many of those games look like utter shit these days.

I used to have difficulty playing old games due to their graphics but I've managed to overcome that barrier. Now I don't really care about graphics, especially after playing all the pretty but shallow games that come out these days.

It's really hard for any Dev. to justify making complexe games when console sales are booming because the games are simpler.

This is true. However, where do you draw the line and say "Okay, now we're getting too simple"? The Wii is outselling the 360 and the PS3. Casual Wii games are outselling most other console games. From a purely financial standpoint, it makes a lot more sense to make casual Wii games than relatively hardcore 360 or PS3 games. At what point do you sacrifice your potential profits for the sake of maintaining some semblance of creative integrity?

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 15:37.

The trouble with that approach is that the graphical fluff is PC gaming's biggest advantage other than control scheme and mods. Devs are starting to get decent implementations of previously "PC only" genres on consoles without major difficulty in terms of controls. Instead of "mods", console games like LittleBigPlanet are starting to showcase user customization built into the game itself.

I don't relish the idea of returning to the old days, many of those games look like utter shit these days. Even Deus Ex is starting to show it's age, I still enjoy it but I can't imagine introducing a new gamer to it.

Honestly I'd rather see PC gaming revert to the good ole days when graphics were secondary and gameplay came first. Stop wasting all this time and money on fancy graphical assets and spend more hours working on the story and gameplay. I could care less about graphics, I'll fire up my console and HDTV for that. On my PC I want complex and enjoyable games that don't require me to spend a billion dollars keeping it upgraded.

Great comment. I am in total agreement here.

I think games like TF2 need to become standard where they make a game that is fun, cheap, and runs great on older machines. DICE is trying with BF Heroes but everything I've seen indicates that they still don't "get it".

Complex games are more expensive, take longer to make and often don't have a good return on investment. They're a risky proposition. It's no secret to why developers shy away from them. Even oldtime PC devs (some of whom made the original franchises that people are so fond of) are very cautious about it.

NKD

I understand your argument but The Number of PCs capable of playing Video games is way bigger than the number of consoles. That said the number also includes office PC's that will never be used for gaming or Grand Pa's new dell PC that will never run any games etc.... You are still making a valid point, more people play games on consoles than on PC and it influences publishing etc.

Please try not to use the 1992 argument about having to upgrade your PC every year or 2 to play recent games. My PC is 3 year old & I played Crysis at 1920x1200 all on very high shadows on medium. Anyone who spends 1000$ a year on his PC to game needs to learn to read reviews before buying hardware. The max anyone should spend on upgrades is 500$ every 3 or 4 years. That is what I've been doing since the first 3DFX cards came out and the video card craze began.
Buy smart & sell at the right time to pay for next upgrade.

The idea of going back to the days complex PC games with ugly graphics will not work at least not in a capitalist environment. I wish we could have the complexity & the graphics. The bottom line $$ is the most important thing, this means that the PC exclusive titles are going to be a thing of the past soon. Console gaming is heavily influenced by PC gaming & we are already starting to see the effects. There was a time when games like Oblivion would not have done well on consoles ...same with Bioshock. these 2 titles may not have the complexity of past PC games but way more than your average console title. It's really hard for any Dev. to justify making complexe games when console sales are booming because the games are simpler.

I don't see the point blaming anyone right now. Few pirates are going to stop just because publishers whine about it - some even seem to see it as an excuse to "stick it to the man". It's just the same as the music industry, or any indistry: blaming the market may or may not be true, but either way it's not going to help. It's nothing more than a distraction.

The only approach that is going to help is to treat it for what it is. A problem for your business, like any other. Analyse it through the usual business models, it's what they're for. If piracy is as substantial as it appears to be, why is the sum total of your strategy to combat it some shitty DRM that only your paying customers suffer, and a whine in the media?

Personally I have little sympathy for the publishers "playing the blame game" because it shows plain lack of business competence. Delaying a PC release to avoid cannibalising console sales is fairly sensible and I can respect that, but it's still reactionary - a basic tactical move that I would expect to see say 6 months after piracy exploded. But when piracy is a massive problem years before development begins and you still haven't got a proper strategy in place? "Failing to plan is planning to fail".

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 13:44.

But Im confused????

The game is online play only, isn't it? Why would pc piracy even matter when you cant play the game without a cdkey and a ubi account?

Get the hell out... There's no room for you here with your reasonable points and intelligent debate!

But Im confused????

The game is online play only, isn't it? Why would pc piracy even matter when you cant play the game without a cdkey and a ubi account?

Yeah the core issue here is not piracy, or game quality, it is sales. Piracy, game quality, number of potential customers (i.e. people with PCs who meet requirements) all factor into that though.

I just think that its a dwindling customer base that is making the PC sell so poorly, not piracy. The vast majority of people I know who pirate stuff do so because they simply want more games than their budget allows for. I don't know many pirates who pirate every single game. Most of them actually spend most of their extra cash on games, hardware, and other software, and pirate the lower-priority stuff that they can't afford.

That doesn't justify it, but it certainly explains why DRM is never going to work. Even if piracy did become impossible, it isn't going to magically make people be able to afford the games they were previously pirating. If I buy 2 games a month and pirate 8 games a month, do they honestly think I'm suddenly going to be able to buy 10 games a month?

That combined with the sheer cost of keeping a PC up to date that can comfortably play the latest games really harms the platform. Everyone needs a crappy integrated GPU PC to do their school/work/family business, but its becoming increasingly difficult to justify spending $1000 a year when you can get the same thing, minus the stupid DRM, for $300 every 2-4 years.

Honestly I'd rather see PC gaming revert to the good ole days when graphics were secondary and gameplay came first. Stop wasting all this time and money on fancy graphical assets and spend more hours working on the story and gameplay. I could care less about graphics, I'll fire up my console and HDTV for that. On my PC I want complex and enjoyable games that don't require me to spend a billion dollars keeping it upgraded.

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2008, 13:12.

That's my ultimate point - it's not just the pirate community's fault, it's not just the industry's fault; both are contributing to the problem and neither are looking for a solution.

Couldn't agree with you more. The pirates blame the publishers, the publishers blame the pirates. There's more than enough blame to go around but few are doing anything to remedy the situation. The pirates just keep pirating their games and using various stuff as excuses to do so, the publishers just keep moving away from the PC. It's got to end somewhere before all we're left with is shitty Flash games, MMOs and The Sims 9: Tokyo Apartment Livin.

Would never spend another dime on UBIsoft's buggy unsupported products again. Has nothing to do with piracy...it's your crappy products.