Then I stand corrected for make a generalized comment. Hope you'll accept my apologies.

Apology accepted. I also apologize for any additional unwarranted snark.

That's what I was looking for. You don't need to be a closet MMO hater. Just come out and say you dislike MMOs. You'll feel better.

Yes of course. I must really hate them having played: EQ, EQ2, DAoC, Jumpgate, EVE Online, Mankind, City of Heroes/Villains, Tabula Rasa and several free to play ones as well as others that I'm forgetting.

So yes...you're right on the money. I must really hate MMOs.

Then I stand corrected for make a generalized comment. Hope you'll accept my apologies.

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Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/

That's what I was looking for. You don't need to be a closet MMO hater. Just come out and say you dislike MMOs. You'll feel better.

Yes of course. I must really hate them having played: EQ, EQ2, DAoC, Jumpgate, EVE Online, Mankind, City of Heroes/Villains, Tabula Rasa and several free to play ones as well as others that I'm forgetting.

So yes...you're right on the money. I must really hate MMOs.

I swear overgeneralizing is the bane of all intelligent discussion! I lost count the number of times I've written this... so here I go again. WOW actually has MORE adults playing it than kids (i.e. "9 year olds", "kiddy pool"). The only reason anyone would continue to perpetuate this stereotype is WOW's graphics... which simply shows a high level of ignorance about WOW and MMOs in general.

I don't think he said that numerically there were more kids playing. And I certainly didn't either. Although I suppose it depends on if chronological age is the only determining factor when trying to ascertain if someone is a 'kid'. As I said earlier...there are lots of grown adults out there who act like 9 years old.

AOC suffered from the fact that most reviews didn't seem to ever leave the starter area Tortage, thus their reviews were flawed and left out the majority of the games problems leaving it with a overly inflated score.

Amen brother. From my experience massively multiplayer games are challenging to review since you need to spend time getting beyond the newbie phase and into the real game. Because in the "real game" you can see all the bugs and issues that may not be in the lower levels.

edit: typos

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Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/
This comment was edited on Aug 2, 01:26.

People want something new, WOTLK I doubt will keep the large numbers of people playing till the next expansion. The expansion cycle for Blizzard is far beyond any other MMO dev.

AOC suffered from the fact that most reviews didn't seem to ever leave the starter area Tortage, thus their reviews were flawed and left out the majority of the games problems leaving it with a overly inflated score.

All AOC does is show how many people want something new, WAR will suck off alot of the PVP crowd from WoW IMO if your hardcore into pvp I don't see why you wouldn't at least try it.

I'm shocked to hear they've lost any subscribers considering, AoC was a market hype piece of crap. All the talk about they got so many subscribers and they had more than they expected on launch. It was all just to make people curious about the game, the "buzz" if you will, and try it out. Unfortunately, the buzz is that the game is a piece of crap, and I think 100% will return to WoW in given time. It's just missing the specialness that makes WoW what it is. I feel like I was playing a game trying so hard to just catch up to WoW but falls miserably like so many others.

Damn. Another overgeneralization! The fact of the matter is there are some players that simply cannot stand WOW's "cartoon" graphics. In my case the first time I saw screenshots for WOW those were my exact thoughts. Of course I gave WOW a try and the rest is history. But for those that are avidly opposed to WOW's cartoony graphics I think they would rather rough it out in a modern looking game like AoC than ever return to WOW; expansion or not.

PS Please don't overgeneralize! It makes you look like a fanboy. We hate those.

Edit: typos

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http://www.gamemusicjukebox.com/
Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/
This comment was edited on Aug 1, 21:05.

@Slashman.
RE: Comment #25

Brilliant commentary mate. That about sums it up. Blizzard had the time and money for WOW because of the huge residuals coming in from Diablo, StarCraft, and WarCraft.

The same is true for Microsoft. The only reason they became a success after suffering losses for years is because their huge residuals from software sales.

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http://www.gamemusicjukebox.com/
Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/

I love Blizzard as a developer and am eagerly looking forward to their upcoming non-MMO titles.

That's what I was looking for. You don't need to be a closet MMO hater. Just come out and say you dislike MMOs. You'll feel better.


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http://www.gamemusicjukebox.com/
Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/
This comment was edited on Aug 1, 20:34.

A pity really, since the game did have potential - but when you think about how many years it was in development, it is hard to ignore the fact that sheer and utter developer incompetence had to have played a major role in its [ongoing] failure.

I vaguely remember in a written QA or podcasted interview a Blizzard lead said that it was more important for them to make WOW a fun game (given that this was their first MMO). I think the problem with Funcom is that they designed AOC from the outside-in. In other words they spend more time on the look instead on making sure it was fun. Which is sad because Blizzard needs competition, and AOC seemed like it was the closest to that in recent years.


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Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/
This comment was edited on Aug 1, 20:38.

I respect Blizzard for what they have accomplished with WoW. With that said it is not the game for me, I think once you become a lot more familiar with other MMO's you graduate out of WoW & therefore out of the kiddy pool. Like one poster said WoW is basically accessible for a 9 year old & that's NOT a problem but us adults like something a little more brutal, sexy, deeper, & complex that's where Conan comes in.

I swear overgeneralizing is the bane of all intelligent discussion! I lost count the number of times I've written this... so here I go again. WOW actually has MORE adults playing it than kids (i.e. "9 year olds", "kiddy pool"). The only reason anyone would continue to perpetuate this stereotype is WOW's graphics... which simply shows a high level of ignorance about WOW and MMOs in general.


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http://www.gamemusicjukebox.com/
Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/
This comment was edited on Aug 1, 20:37.

I'm shocked to hear they've lost any subscribers considering, AoC was a market hype piece of crap. All the talk about they got so many subscribers and they had more than they expected on launch. It was all just to make people curious about the game, the "buzz" if you will, and try it out. Unfortunately, the buzz is that the game is a piece of crap, and I think 100% will return to WoW in given time. It's just missing the specialness that makes WoW what it is. I feel like I was playing a game trying so hard to just catch up to WoW but falls miserably like so many others.

If this is accurate, then it's actually pretty good for AoC to hold on to 60% of gamers who transitioned from WoW to AoC. AoC started out a bit rough but it's getting more fun week after week. I don't care how great a game WoW is, it gets old after a while. I loved the game and played it for years, but I just can't get any motivation to play it any longer, even with expansions.

I'm having a lot of fun playing AoC.

I think Blizzard does not get as much credit for innovation because so many of the features in WoW are now standard in just about every MMO that comes out. There is plenty of room in the MMO market to make games with little or no relation to WoW. Very few games will be a global blockbusters but many can find space to do just fine. The problems come up when you try to out-WoW WoW.

Conan to me suffered because it tried to do too many things like WOW but could not execute them as well. For example the Conan talent trees are obviously inspired by WoW but I found them far too similar to each other. It only served to reinforce that I might as well spend my time playing the more polished game. The instances in LOTR only served to highlight how superior Blizzard made their instances, etc. If Conan was radically different I might have hung around more. The comparison to WoW was easy in my mind and Conan was the poorer for it even if it is not fair to compare a 4yr old game with a newly launched one. Nobody even tries to compare Eve and WoW and as a result who can say which is superior? Apples and Oranges.

Conan's big departure from WoW in mechanics was the combat system. But even in this it was too similar after about a week of playtime. Most of the attacks are very, very similar to each other but differ only in the direction they attack. It felt like playing WoW with only 3 special abilities once you got over the almost rhythm game like attack directions. Casters felt even closer to WoW with virtually no difference in play style except a much smaller number of spells. This is from a PvE perspective since I rarely PvP.

Even if only a fraction of Conan players stay for the long haul I still think Conan can be considered a strong success. Looking at the western MMO market of games that are not WoW, I am sure Conan's numbers will be quite good.

I don't think WoW only succeeded because of a snowball effect. WoW may have gotten a large batch of initial players based on hype, but much the same could be said of Conan. The difference is WoW kept those players for a longer period of time.

Edit: typo


This comment was edited on Aug 1, 18:19.

Its just has a huge glut of people who mostly never played ANY MMOs before and their extended families and friends who all think that they're really gamers now that they've 'mastered' a game built so that 9 year olds could play and finish it.

That has to be one of the most elitist and ignorant comments I've seen yet. WOW has over 11 million subscribers PRECISELY for the reasons you stated. If you want "hardcore" (which is not WOW) I suggest you play EVE Online. Now that game is definitely NOT for casual gamers.

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Game p/reviewer for http://www.gameindustry.com/

I think you forgot something. Unless a person is a very hardcore gamer, he/she plays game for fun, entertainment and not looking for something meaningful in life or something deeper or whatever. Isn't it the root of what gamming is all about in the first place? I know fun is a subjective word. But the key here is to provide fun for as many people as possible. And Blizzard did just that. WoW does not strike for anything deeper, better or more meaningful, but it provides a lot of entertainment value to a lot of people.

That's great. However, its success has had the unwelcomed side-effect of making a large number of game developers and more specifically their publishers believe that all MMOs should strive for brain-dead fun and depth be damned in ANY circumstance. Not everyone wants to play a game where they can scoop out their brain and smile droolingly at a screen and make the same progress and have the same success as anyone else. If EVERYONE wanted this kind of gameplay...then EVE Online wouldn't have been able to rise from nothing to a successful MMO.

Making the game so that even 9 years old can play, is that bad? Hell no, if they made it so only 9 years old can enjoy than yeah, it's bad, but they made it so a lot of adult can enjoy it too. If they make it so 3 years old can play and we adult can still enjoy the game then more power to them.

There are a staggering number of adults walking around out there who exercise just about the same general mental capacity(and sometimes less) than your average 9 year old. It just doesn't bother society as much these days. They get elected to President.

This is where you are wrong. track record and marketing moves can only get you so far. Look at AoC, the marketing hype went through the roof. But sadly, Funcom only stop at marketing. Look at the sale chart for North America, all 3 WoW titles still in the top 10 after 4 years. Where did it snowball to? After 4 years, people are still buying the original version like that, they must have done something RIGHT with the game.

Show me what title it was that Funcom EVER produced that ever rivaled anything that Blizzard did. See this right here shows that all you're doing is reacting out of emotion. When WoW was announced, Blizzard had under its belt Starcraft and Broodwar(insanely successful and played up to this day), Diablo, Diablo 2 and their expansions(again still played and in the minds of gamers everywhere). The Warcraft RTS series and its expansions(again hugely successful on a grand scale). You think Blizzard only had a handful of fans when WoW launched that were going to buy the game? You're deluded.

Blizzard's marketing is renowned in gaming circles. They understand what it means to build a craving for a game in their fans like few other gaming companies. And they are damn good at it. I've heard other game developers say the same thing about them so I'm not pulling this out of my butt.

Oh lest I forget, the other factor that drives the nail home in the coffin. It runs on just about any piece of junk PC out there. Another Blizzard trademark.

Add that stuff to the polish that ALL Blizzard games get shipped with and then factor in that online gaming was only JUST starting to really become mainstream and voila. Instant freak success...as possibly only Blizzard could ever deliver it. Funcom didn't 'stop at marketing', they used the Conan IP to promote a game that wasn't ready for launch and wasn't polished. That is a recipe for failure for ANY game.

The attitudes about WoW from people who have never played anything else remain consistently like I've described. I've seen it happen time and again with people I know and online friends. To the point where I can't even recommend any other title or point out that maybe so-and-so game does this aspect of gameplay better. Its like talking to zombies.

I think you forgot something. Unless a person is a very hardcore gamer, he/she plays game for fun, entertainment and not looking for something meaningful in life or something deeper or whatever. Isn't it the root of what gamming is all about in the first place? I know fun is a subjective word. But the key here is to provide fun for as many people as possible. And Blizzard did just that. WoW does not strike for anything deeper, better or more meaningful, but it provides a lot of entertainment value to a lot of people.

Making the game so that even 9 years old can play, is that bad? Hell no, if they made it so only 9 years old can enjoy than yeah, it's bad, but they made it so a lot of adult can enjoy it too. If they make it so 3 years old can play and we adult can still enjoy the game then more power to them.

Why do I have to care if some other games do this or that better? I am having fun with this one.

However, WoW is not the second coming of MMOs. It simply got released by a company with a stellar record, unstoppable marketing know-how and to a huge base of fans who were going to buy and play it in the first place. It snowballed from there. Even Blizzard wasn't expecting it.

This is where you are wrong. track record and marketing moves can only get you so far. Look at AoC, the marketing hype went through the roof. But sadly, Funcom only stop at marketing. Look at the sale chart for North America, all 3 WoW titles still in the top 10 after 4 years. Where did it snowball to? After 4 years, people are still buying the original version like that, they must have done something RIGHT with the game.

WoW is the worst thing that could ever have happened to mmos ..it's not blizzard but rather the fans fault ..there's just no room for any other mmo because they get invariably compared to WoW and most often without any real merit in the comparisons ..I think the biggest disservice from wow hardcore fans against the mmo genre is that they'll descend en masse when a game even remotely challenges WoW is any way shape or form ..like lemmings to a cliff they'll collectively pan any game that dares enter the same arena as WoW

Its more than just the fans(they are a factor of course). Its the entire game development process. There are development houses out there who would like to produce great MMOs. There's no doubt in my mind about that. The huge hurdle that limits this is funding and time. Games take a while to get just right. And even longer to ensure that they are fun, friendly and intuitive to play. That's along with setting up a great gameworld and storyline as well as interesting quests etc.

Unfortunately, most game developers can't self-fund and self-publish OR self-market. And the investors in these games see WoW and the revenue its generated(and continues to generate) for its own investors and they don't just want a piece of that pie...they want that pie and they want it NOW. They rarely understand that they cannot have it and especially cannot have it in the timeframe they want with the amount of money they are investing. They aren't gamers and probably don't truly care for anything game-related apart from what that market represents in terms of cashflow.

So you get developers who are 'forced' into unrealistic timetables and have to turn out a game in 2.5 years when it could really stand to be baked for another year and a half.
Those are just arbitrary numbers to illustrate my point.

Great games take time to build and develop. Developers usually have everything BUT time and sometimes not enough time as well as not enough money to give them breathing room.

Blizzard hasn't been in that position for a long time. And when you look at the most successful game developers, most of them are also not in that position (or at least have more control over it than other development houses).

We the fans HATE to hear 'when its done'. But thats the kind of timeframe that a good developer needs to turn out a great a game. 3d Realms notwithstanding.

I respect you for offering a better insight as to how you justify the way you think about the game, Slashman. Unlike a lot of people who would make an argument without reason, you certainly know what you are talking about to back up your argument and provide valid points.

It's a very rare breed on the internet.

Thanks for saying so. I also respect your opinion. I wasn't actually expecting someone making your argument was an Eve Online player as well. I did play Eve for a couple years and was also in the beta. Its a very different game than WoW and isn't trying to achieve the same things. But its still recording decent monthly growth and is the only game of its size with a single server shard. I'd consider it a big success.

WoW is the worst thing that could ever have happened to mmos ..it's not blizzard but rather the fans fault ..there's just no room for any other mmo because they get invariably compared to WoW and most often without any real merit in the comparisons ..I think the biggest disservice from wow hardcore fans against the mmo genre is that they'll descend en masse when a game even remotely challenges WoW is any way shape or form ..like lemmings to a cliff they'll collectively pan any game that dares enter the same arena as WoW

I respect you for offering a better insight as to how you justify the way you think about the game, Slashman. Unlike a lot of people who would make an argument without reason, you certainly know what you are talking about to back up your argument and provide valid points.

It's a very rare breed on the internet.


This comment was edited on Aug 1, 11:36.