Flagship on Hellgate

The Max Schaefer Interview on Eurogamer talks with the Flagship cofounder in a conversation that mostly centers around Mythos, their upcoming MMORPG. Towards the end of the article a question about lessons learned from Hellgate: London prompts a confession that they bit off more than they could chew with the action/RPG:
Oh yeah! [laughs]. If we made a mistake with Hellgate, it was trying to do too many things for too many people. We wanted a cutting edge graphics engine, we wanted multiple business models with subscriptions and free play, and single-player, we wanted to combine third-person play with first-person play, we wanted to do random 3D levels, and when you're starting with a brand new game studio with very limited budget and no existing technologies, that was probably biting off too much. We ended up rushing it to market and not keeping it in the oven long enough, just out of necessity.

We learned from that, and going forward as a studio, it's a new emphasis of ours to do things that are more efficient and better-planned, and smaller teams on smaller projects so we can get more ideas out there. With Mythos we're definitely taking our time, we're well within our budget and our means to make it. It's a little bit of a turning point for us - don't try to do everything for everybody. Just be more realistic about your design goals. Bring it back to nine tenths instead of ten tenths and things will go much sooner.
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24.
 
Re: Diablo 3 is coming, What's HGL?
Jul 11, 2008, 18:56
24.
Re: Diablo 3 is coming, What's HGL? Jul 11, 2008, 18:56
Jul 11, 2008, 18:56
 
Yup that was a huge let down. I thought they broke away to do something better not try to kill the genre.

23.
 
Diablo 3 is coming, What's HGL?
Jul 8, 2008, 11:46
23.
Diablo 3 is coming, What's HGL? Jul 8, 2008, 11:46
Jul 8, 2008, 11:46
 
Upon hearing the annoucement of Diablo3, I immediately burned my bought copy of Hellgate London, and erased it from my memory, that I ever had to endure such a poorly made game, from such high potential of the much Hyped "Bill Roper" Not even Frodo can get back my CD after where I tossed it away.

22.
 
Re: If Flagship had a sense of humor
Jul 8, 2008, 11:42
22.
Re: If Flagship had a sense of humor Jul 8, 2008, 11:42
Jul 8, 2008, 11:42
 
Actually, it is free to play, it just has a micro-transaction system like most Korean MMO's. But you can d/l it and play it for free.

I'm not sure why Mythos is F2P and Hellgate is not as they are both made on top of the same engine (as a poster has already stated, Mythos stated off as a testbed for Hellgate).

I guess more FSS stupidity.

21.
 
If Flagship had a sense of humor
Jul 7, 2008, 22:59
21.
If Flagship had a sense of humor Jul 7, 2008, 22:59
Jul 7, 2008, 22:59
 
They'd make Mythos free to play.

Creston


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20.
 
No subject
Jul 7, 2008, 22:05
20.
No subject Jul 7, 2008, 22:05
Jul 7, 2008, 22:05
 
LoL! Shouldn't have left Blizzard. That's the big mistake.

Avatar 16605
19.
 
Re: No subject
Jul 7, 2008, 20:57
19.
Re: No subject Jul 7, 2008, 20:57
Jul 7, 2008, 20:57
 
Hellgate: London needs a Superfly Jones and it's sweet to call it done.

18.
 
No subject
Jul 7, 2008, 20:33
18.
No subject Jul 7, 2008, 20:33
Jul 7, 2008, 20:33
 
man everything these guys say screams "money-grubbing corporate whore"

take your MMO and shove it up your sore ass
17.
 
No subject
Jul 7, 2008, 20:30
17.
No subject Jul 7, 2008, 20:30
Jul 7, 2008, 20:30
 

Man just die Hellgate die, and slip into the turd pile with the rest of the shit games!

16.
 
Re: wow
Jul 7, 2008, 20:25
16.
Re: wow Jul 7, 2008, 20:25
Jul 7, 2008, 20:25
 
Actually, they are industry vets at Flagship, so they should have known better considering past dev cycles.

I believe most of those industry vets came from Blizzard. They probably formed Flagship with the mindset of the way things work at Blizzard and thought it would work for their company. The huge difference is Blizzard is an establish brand with a huge budget and insane amounts of residual income from their games.

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15.
 
Re: Mistake
Jul 7, 2008, 20:16
15.
Re: Mistake Jul 7, 2008, 20:16
Jul 7, 2008, 20:16
 
Whoa. I knew Hellgate was bad, even commented on it profusely at release, but promptly quit playing about two weeks later. But 8+ months or so later and only one substandard content update?!?! And people paid $150+ for a lifetime subscription?! That is brutal!

I'm no legal expect but I think this is grounds for a class action lawsuit. Flapship is saying they pushed their product to market knowing the gameplay and technology was basically broken, or would never achieve the content they promised.

They could refund the remaining difference from the lifetime subscriptions back and just go on a monthly subscription plan. A move like this would likely salvage whatever remaining subscribers they have... because it sounds like they need it.

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14.
 
Re: wow
Jul 7, 2008, 19:24
14.
Re: wow Jul 7, 2008, 19:24
Jul 7, 2008, 19:24
 
I just love how people make colossal fuck ups and learn some mundane lesson they should have learned simply by picking up any book written about design in general.

Aye. It's not like this sort of thing hasn't been seen before in the industry, both with new ventures and older, more established companies.

If you needed an indication of how well a half baked product which is overambitious in scope and rushed out the door to soon would do, a quick look at Troika's VTM:Bloodlines would have been a great start. Of course Troika had talent so their storyline etc was engrossing even while the engine was a buggy piece of crap that has been better supported by the public. Sans subscription.

Learning from your mistakes is great and all, but saving time by learning from others before you make your own seems like a better idea...

13.
 
Re: wow
Jul 7, 2008, 19:23
13.
Re: wow Jul 7, 2008, 19:23
Jul 7, 2008, 19:23
 
Actually, they are industry vets at Flagship, so they should have known better considering past dev cycles.

Just sayin'.

12.
 
wow
Jul 7, 2008, 18:36
12.
wow Jul 7, 2008, 18:36
Jul 7, 2008, 18:36
 
I just love how people make colossal fuck ups and learn some mundane lesson they should have learned simply by picking up any book written about design in general.

11.
 
Re: Mistake
Jul 7, 2008, 17:57
11.
Re: Mistake Jul 7, 2008, 17:57
Jul 7, 2008, 17:57
 
To date, there has only been one content update

Whoa. I knew Hellgate was bad, even commented on it profusely at release, but promptly quit playing about two weeks later. But 8+ months or so later and only one substandard content update?!?! And people paid $150+ for a lifetime subscription?! That is brutal! I'm so glad Flagship is going to "redeem" itself by releasing a cutsy little game as an afterthought that was originally developed simply to test a Hellgate engine. *heavy sarcasm intended*

This companies done. stick a fork in them!

Amen.

10.
 
Re: No, the biggest mistake....
Jul 7, 2008, 17:50
Beamer
 
10.
Re: No, the biggest mistake.... Jul 7, 2008, 17:50
Jul 7, 2008, 17:50
 Beamer
 
Even before the pricing plans came out:
we wanted to combine third-person play with first-person play

I think this was what set off a lot of alarm bells. I remember, when this was announced, making a post here along the lines of "can anyone name a single game that did this well? Most games have one mode pretty well with the other tacked on. The others have neither mode particularly good at all. No game has done both successfully and it's unlikely to ever happen."

I stand by that.


Then, at the second or third E3, almost every video was in third person and they all looked like a Playstation 1 game as far as gameplay went (so did Heavenly Sword.)
9.
 
No, the biggest mistake....
Jul 7, 2008, 17:47
9.
No, the biggest mistake.... Jul 7, 2008, 17:47
Jul 7, 2008, 17:47
 
...was my dumbass shelling out hundred bucks plus for lifetime subscription. I know the whole caveat emptor gig, but i had hoped they would continue to improve it over time. But from the sounds of it, they'll be sticking a fork in it soon. I'm going back to playing Age of Conan.

8.
 
Equivalent
Jul 7, 2008, 17:18
8.
Equivalent Jul 7, 2008, 17:18
Jul 7, 2008, 17:18
 
"Iceberg, Right Ahead!"

Make sure you get a spot on the limited number of lifeboats.

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7.
 
Re: heh
Jul 7, 2008, 15:29
7.
Re: heh Jul 7, 2008, 15:29
Jul 7, 2008, 15:29
 
"If" they made "a" mistake?
Another day, another Schaefer tale.
That aside, if they want to be taken seriously, fix the game to a proper state, refund all monthly charges paid to date, and let people start fresh. Even if they hate the idea of a refund, at the very least, offer people the next X many months free for having already paid for X many previous months.

I doubt the game will ever be great and it definitely will never be what was originally promised, but that's the least they should do. Until then, simply for screwing over people with the monthly fee on a sub-standard game and having the worst demo release I've ever seen (relative to the company of release,) I have nothing nice to say or think about Flagship.

Shrugging,
Ray

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6.
 
Re: heh
Jul 7, 2008, 15:11
6.
Re: heh Jul 7, 2008, 15:11
Jul 7, 2008, 15:11
 
From the moment they said you have to pay to play they lost the battle. As for Mythos its fun for about the first 15 levels then it becomes very apparent that its a very repetative game almost as bad as helgate is when it comes to rehashing the same levels over and over. This companies done. stick a fork in them!

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5.
 
Re: Mistake
Jul 7, 2008, 15:07
5.
Re: Mistake Jul 7, 2008, 15:07
Jul 7, 2008, 15:07
 
www.flagshipped.com

Mythos is a *cute* game, I find the sound effects to be pretty stupid though. And yes, D3 may have killed it even though it will probably have a year to a year and a half to exist before D3 is released.

As far as Hellgate:London is concerned, I'm not sure, as far as consumers go, who wanted a $10 a month rental subscription model so Flagship probably wasted MONTHS of programming the sub model when they could have added better, less repetitive MoBs and Tile sets. They also probably wasted to time coding in Microsoft's Massive Advert Engine product that also took away development time for the game.

The Hellgate:London rental subscription model has to be THE biggest ripoff in the history of PC Gaming. To date, there has only been one content update (Stonehenge that has ZERO quests or storyline, just a grinding sandbox and is ~ 1/5th of the core game that cost $40-50 at release) that has cost some subscribers up to $80 so far (twice as much as the core game itself).

This comment was edited on Jul 7, 15:19.
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