With all the ridiculous hype, unreliable reviews and misleading or nonexistent demos, the only real way to find out if a game is worth buying is to play it first.

Gee, a purchase that involves an element of risk. Shock horror! The answer is to find review sites you trust, take into account hype, read forums and avoid games without demos. If you come across a misleading demo then that's an indication you should avoid that publisher or be more wary.

Just because you CAN pirate doesn't mean you should. Again I'm just hearing excuses. If you don't buy most games you pirate then that's stealing entertainment you should have paid for; if you do buy most games you pirate then you might as well just buy them in the first place.

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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society

Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn

Then don't pirate them. If a product is shit then people won't buy it, the publisher will lose money and will have to change their business model - it's how the market works.

How do you know if a computer game is shit? Seems to me the only accurate and reliable way to find out is to play it for yourself. One man's trash is another man's treasure. With all the ridiculous hype, unreliable reviews and misleading or nonexistent demos, the only real way to find out if a game is worth buying is to play it first. That alone is justification for piracy regardless of your moral standpoint.

See the difference? One is an external piece of hardware that must be exchanged to fit the software in use. The other is an internal piece of hardware that is not software exclusive. See the difference?

And the point of that was what? We both know full well what they are so you're just wasting your time getting all irate. They do the same job, just one can be transported between computers.

I play MMOs, America's Army and games on Steam. None of them require a CD.

My point was that most games still come with CD-checks and you've come across them in the past. I don't want to debate semantics just because you want to be awkward - the statement was figurative anyway.

Even if I were to do so, I would grab a no-cd crack for my legally purchased game.

The whole point with TPM protection is that it will protect games without getting in the way like CD-checks and online activation do currently. Certainly less effort that searching online and having to jump through hoops everytime you patch a game.

Because I don't have the choice not to for the most part. My monitor does not have HDCP and I don't plan to buy one that does. I generally do not purchase many DVDs (I prefer the theater) and I hardly buy any CDs. When I do buy CDs I make sure they are from artists whose publishers are NOT part of the RIAA. I am sick and tired of being treated like a potential criminal even though I pay for all my content. And I'm sick and tired of paying extra so that companies can NOT stop piracy. This chip is just another step in the direction of pissing me off.

Great. You have morals and you follow them - I respect that. However, you do buy DVDs and other technologies that restrict your freedom in order to protect the content producers. Even scanners / scanning software prevent the scanning of banknotes and it isn't possible to avoid them all. This is another such technology and if it was to become as commonplace as DVD/Blu-ray protection then you'd have to use it or play the minority of titles without it.

That's because the majority of titles are complete crap. You wouldn't have bought it anyway even if you didn't play with it for free. Some titles just aren't worth anything, and a lot of them are better waiting till they end up in the $10 bargain bin after a year.

Great. Then don't pirate them. If a product is shit then people won't buy it, the publisher will lose money and will have to change their business model - it's how the market works. I don't understand your point. Were you defending pirating bad products? Were you criticsing the industry? Whatever it was there is still no justification for piracy.

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Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society

Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn

Pirating hurts the game publishers? Really? So how are they still making their millions of dollars every year. How is pirating really hurting the game developers as they drive to work in their Lamborghinis?

Pirates hurt developers will to create new titles? How is it they can still pour MILLIONS of dollars to develop the umpteenth sequal to a game franchise that's nearly 20 years old now, and still make a profit after 10 years when they finally release it?

It's really difficult to see the true harm pirating does, when you see examples as I made above.

The only reason why pirates get prosecuted is the LAWYERS get paid regardless if they win or loose. They make money every time they prosecute a hacker, or crack down some Warez site on the web. Game developers pour TONS on money on lawyers to, apparently, fight pirates. Blame the fucking lawyers; they are the true pirates of the world.

This comment was edited on May 25, 18:07.

>> Obviously anything that leads to a sale is good but piracy
>> makes it much easier for people to not pay at all - it is
>> only the minority that buy the games they pirate.

That's because the majority of titles are complete crap. You wouldn't have bought it anyway even if you didn't play with it for free. Some titles just aren't worth anything, and a lot of them are better waiting till they end up in the $10 bargain bin after a year.

Right, this isn't about pro-piracy, but anti-bullshit.

Any form of copy protection is pointless. It doesn't stop pirates from being pirates, but it does make life for the rest of us incredibly cumbersome having to go though so much BULLSHIT just to use what we paid for.

It's just now that the recording industry is realizing that DRM-ing music and videos is a pain in the ass, and paying customers do not like it one bit.

Besides from the fact that some forms of DRM act as root-kits, and are such system HOGS they bog your system down to a crawl (ahem, Vista), and end up breaking basic functionality of your PC when you try to remove them.

It's nice to know that I'll now be buying more expensive media products that restrict me on what I can do with it. Thank you short sighted paranoid corporate America.

Let's say that every mobo from now on featured this onboard anti-piracy chip. Let's say that the only way to circumvent it was through circuit board level modifications to the hardware and not some 64K crack file you could download off the web. Then let's say that because of it, all DRM, CD-Checks, and other copy protection were abandoned by publishers.

If that happened, I would be thrilled. The more "hardcore" pirates would be the only subsection of users who would go through the dicey proposition of soldering on their $200 mobo, while the vast majority of users would buy the games like they always have and not notice a bit of difference. Then maybe we could put the stupid piracy rant that so many publishers use as a crutch to bed once and for all.

Sorry for my assumption that you played one of the 95% of games that feature a CD-check. Minesweeper fun?


The TPM module is a dongle, just built into the motherboard, making dongles relavent to the disucssion.


Why do you buy DVDs with CSS protection? Why do you buy HDCP chips in modern monitors (you'll be hard pushed to find monitors without them soon)? The point is that they facilitate the use of purchased content. Ideally nobody should need them but ideally people aren't cunts that choose to pirate things instead of paying for them. Feel free to boycott them though - my point wasn't to tell you to use them.


I don't understand why you'd bother to pick apart my post and then tell me to piss off. If you don't want a discussion then why are you perpetuating one? NEway, I think you need to take some chill pills or at least show some restraint - it's not like I skull fucked your dead-mother.

To quote Long Kiss Goodnight, "When you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you....and mption." I play MMOs, America's Army and games on Steam. None of them require a CD. I have not had to put a CD in my drive to play a game for a number of years now. Even if I were to do so, I would grab a no-cd crack for my legally purchased game. They may frown upon it, but I paid for the software so they can blow me.

This is a dongle: http://www.ktaonline.com/userforum/Images/Dongle.jpg
This is a TPM chip: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mdr/teaching/modules/security/lectures/images/tpmchip.jpg

See the difference? One is an external piece of hardware that must be exchanged to fit the software in use. The other is an internal piece of hardware that is not software exclusive. See the difference? Either way, I don't feel I, as a paying customer, should have to pay for either one. If they want to stop piracy, punish the pirates...not the faithful consumers.

Because I don't have the choice not to for the most part. My monitor does not have HDCP and I don't plan to buy one that does. I generally do not purchase many DVDs (I prefer the theater) and I hardly buy any CDs. When I do buy CDs I make sure they are from artists whose publishers are NOT part of the RIAA. I am sick and tired of being treated like a potential criminal even though I pay for all my content. And I'm sick and tired of paying extra so that companies can NOT stop piracy. This chip is just another step in the direction of pissing me off.

I bothered to pick apart your post because your post was bad enough to be picked apart, much like the post here quoted.

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You see it constantly from a small, vocal minority, as is the case with every issue.

I didn't claim otherwise, I simply said I regularly see people defending piracy in whatever guise.

In three clicks I can torrent any game or movie. Why not make it two clicks to just buy the shit? I've got the cash but the process is broken.

Steam allows for that and it works very well.

I don't really see how piracy leading to a sale can be seen as bad. Then again, I don't care about the morality or legality of the issue. If pirating something leads to a sale, then that's good for business.

Obviously anything that leads to a sale is good but piracy makes it much easier for people to not pay at all - it is only the minority that buy the games they pirate. Therefore restricting access to games will push some people that would have just pirated it to buy it instead, hence why it is a good thing. I know this to be true because I have many friends that only buy music that they can't pirate. It is up to the publishers to generate sales, not torrent sites - many games have demos; if they don't and it loses sales then that is the PUBLISHER's problem. Simply as. Purchasing from piracy is just a bullshit excuse to legitimise copyright infringement.

Firstly, no I fucking don't. Every game on my hard drive currently is a legally purchased piece of software that DOES NOT require a CD to be in the drive during play.

Sorry for my assumption that you played one of the 95% of games that feature a CD-check. Minesweeper fun?

Secondly, you were lauding the use of dongles, which is what I despise, which had nothing to do with the topic specifically....but you brought the shit up, not me.

The TPM module is a dongle, just built into the motherboard, making dongles relavent to the disucssion.

Thirdly, why on earth should I be paying for a chip that brings me absolutely no benefit whatsoever?

Why do you buy DVDs with CSS protection? Why do you buy HDCP chips in modern monitors (you'll be hard pushed to find monitors without them soon)? The point is that they facilitate the use of purchased content. Ideally nobody should need them but ideally people aren't cunts that choose to pirate things instead of paying for them. Feel free to boycott them though - my point wasn't to tell you to use them.

Lastly, piss off arrogant prick.

I don't understand why you'd bother to pick apart my post and then tell me to piss off. If you don't want a discussion then why are you perpetuating one? NEway, I think you need to take some chill pills or at least show some restraint - it's not like I skull fucked your dead-mother.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Founder of the "I Hate Smiley Fitz" society

Remember: Riley has autism. He has trouble communicating, and in an overstimulating
environment, he can get frightened and run away, leaving his parents frantic. - Auburn

What a waste of time. They should put their resources into making it super easy for me to buy stuff.

I've told this to my Dad a million times. Make it so anyone in the world can go into a Seven Eleven or wherever, buy a coffee, an internet card and be done with it.

Make it so it is an impulse buy on the net, one click and I'm done.

Right now the process sucks.

An example is I heard a tune awhile ago that I liked so I downloaded the guitar tab for free but didn't have the CD anymore.

I pirated the song. Yes I have it on CD, or did somewhere.

Why not make it so I can just buy stuff with a click or two instead of having to go get a prepaid credit card, loading money on it (with a twenty dollar surcharge), logging online to verify it and wasting my time?

In three clicks I can torrent any game or movie. Why not make it two clicks to just buy the shit? I've got the cash but the process is broken.

Maybe instead of building all of these DRM schemes they should just make it easier to take my money.

THIS SHOULD BE USED. Why? Because the 'hardcore' pirates are only a small minority, the majority are casual pirates who want the easy free download they wont delve into hard core code hacking and this is why it'll be effective.

Downloading or using the supplied crack then is "hard core code hacking"? Your arguments are as bad as the ones from the idiot companies who have no clue about whats going on whatsoever.
Or, I hope it was sarcasm.

I used to be like you guys...but I had the money...and I still rarely bought the game even if I liked it because why would I pay for it after I already had it and enjoyed it?

It's probably a good thing your personal experience isn't representative of everyone else in the world.

I find it funny that pro-piracy advocates use the argument that hardly anyone pirating would have bought the game. Or the argument that they only pirate if they don't have the money. I used to be like you guys...but I had the money...and I still rarely bought the game even if I liked it because why would I pay for it after I already had it and enjoyed it? Hey, it was free so I was able to spend my money on other things and still enjoy the game. That was my way until I saw studio after studio fold - you know, the ones that made the games I was enjoying.

Pretend all you want that piracy doesn't affect things but deep down you know it does. How much? That's up for debate, but all of you screaming for proof how about you show some proof it doesn't hurt? It's like trying to prove or disprove the existence of God. Good luck...unless you can get everyone who ever plays a game to report whether they stole it or not you're not going to prove anything - but you can look at the trends. Consoles make more money. Yes you can pirate console games, but most people I know who play consoles don't have a clue how you'd even start to pirate a game unless it's as easy as buying a mod chip. On the other hand, almost everyone I know who uses a PC, even those who are about as ignorant as possible, know how to use some P2P/torrent system to get free games. It's just 100 times easier on PC to pirate. Actually I think it would be fun to see how many people on this forum know how to pirate PC vs. console games. And then see how many of each they've pirated. How much do you want to be the console pirates are a much rarer breed?

My only beef with anti-piracy methods these days are things which interfere with my ability to use something I own. If it's non-invasive, and doesn't ask me to verify every time, or put in a CD or login to some stupid site to verify I'm legit then I'm pretty darn happy. Show me that and I'll be a happy gamer. But I'm done making lame excuses for pirating. It's human nature...why pay for something if you can get it for free.

It makes me laugh - I've lived all over the world and everywhere I've been people are the same. They pirate any game that's easy to find. The others they buy. All other arguments fall short in my experience.

This comment was edited on May 24, 18:33.

You are NOT entitled to use pirated software as a "demo", even if doing so leads you to buy it.

So if someone doesn't pirate something and doesn't buy it as a result, that helps the industry how?

I don't really see how piracy leading to a sale can be seen as bad. Then again, I don't care about the morality or legality of the issue. If pirating something leads to a sale, then that's good for business.

I see it constantly on Bluesnews. People claim that by pirating it they can decide what games they like and then buy them; it happens in most topics that discuss piracy.

You see it constantly from a small, vocal minority, as is the case with every issue.

"NO it doesn't hurt anybody financially 99% of the time."

OMG!! ROFLMAO!!! You are SOOOO clueless, it's like... OMG... wow. I didn't think that anyone on this board was honestly that fucking dumb. LOL!!!

It would be really sad if it wasn't so funny.

Apparently, this is the mentality you need to have in order to "justify" all that pirated software you have, jackass. LOL!!!

Your name is Porn-O-Matic so I can only assume that you get a majority of your porn from the internet. Let me ask you this, are you aware that somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of internet porn is comprised of unauthorized copies distributed at no cost by unauthorized sites (aka most porn is pirated).

So, caller of names, art thou a hypocrite? Or do you only view legally purchased or "freeware" (eg amateur) porn?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Firstly, you already have to put disks in. Secondly, this dongle is built into motherboards.

Obviously this isn't going to come about until it is commonplace, so you're just ranting for the sake of it.

Firstly, no I fucking don't. Every game on my hard drive currently is a legally purchased piece of software that DOES NOT require a CD to be in the drive during play.

Secondly, you were lauding the use of dongles, which is what I despise, which had nothing to do with the topic specifically....but you brought the shit up, not me.

Thirdly, why on earth should I be paying for a chip that brings me absolutely no benefit whatsoever? I don't buy mobos with built in video, cuz I don't fucking need it. So why would I buy a mobo with a TPM chip that I, as a purchaser of legal software, have absolutely no use for? Like I said, if shit like this becomes commonplace, then I have no further use for PC gaming.

Lastly, piss off arrogant prick.
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This comment was edited on May 24, 18:23.

Is it wrong for companies to USE my TAX money to enforce immoral copyright laws they create to protect them self's ?

Who cares about piracy... all I care about is the cheating!!!!!

THIS SHOULD BE USED. Why? Because the 'hardcore' pirates are only a small minority, the majority are casual pirates who want the easy free download they wont delve into hard core code hacking and this is why it'll be effective.

Irrelevant. You don't have the right to use it, therefore any action to stop you doing so is fair. The only concern is whether it impacts genuine users, which is my only concern.

Never said it wasn't fair to put copy protection schemes in place. Its completely within their rights.

However, it just seems illogical to me. Why put in place schemes that only hurt your legit users and not the pirates? Only niche software remains uncracked. For very simple reasons, too:

1) Software that isn't used by very many people isn't on top of crackers list of things to crack.
2) When your program is created for a very small target audience, they will be more tolerant of your bizarre dongle schemes etc, because more than likely your software doesn't have a lot of competitors.

There is no uncrackable scheme, plain and simple. A more complicated protection scheme will take a more complicated crack, but thats it. The only real protection is to use a complicated protection scheme on software that will not draw the attention of crackers.

Any AAA game title however is going to be cracked in short order, regardless of the scheme.

This comment was edited on May 24, 13:40.