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26.
 
There's meaning to the message.
Mar 9, 2007, 13:23
26.
There's meaning to the message. Mar 9, 2007, 13:23
Mar 9, 2007, 13:23
 
What I really don't like about Chris Hecker's statement is the tone, it sounds more like fan boyish quote rather than a reasoned well though discussion about the Wii/Next Gen Capabilities
Hecker is simply calling a spade, a spade from his point of view, and his real experience as a game developer is certainly a more reasonable basis for those comments than you would get from some rabid fan even if the resulting message is similar. You may not like the message, but it's hardly a baseless sentiment.

25.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 9, 2007, 10:24
25.
Re: No subject Mar 9, 2007, 10:24
Mar 9, 2007, 10:24
 
How exactly the ILLUSION of good AI different from good AI? What, can you fake AI or something? In the end, AI is a very very very long series of what/if statements. The Illusion of some would be a series of what/if statements as well. Right?
I'm willing to be proven wrong on this tho.

The main difference, and this me putting on my Game Researchers hat on is that good AI will actually reason, come to a decision and then even learn from mistakes. Essentially have a cognitive process like us(Humans). Illusion of Good AI is what we have been doing in games for the last 25 -30 years.

Also I may point out that do we want our Game AI to reason?

If you think about it what would happen in FEAR if instead of engaging you in combat the AI decided to run away and hide. It would make for a very boring game, you would need to tread a fine line between decision making and pre-defined behaviours.

What I really don't like about Chris Hecker's statement is the tone, it sounds more like fan boyish quote rather than a reasoned well though discussion about the Wii/Next Gen Capabilities. If I wanted an uninformed rant on the Wii or any other Hardware I would just carry out a quick google search.





24.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 22:56
nin
24.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 22:56
Mar 8, 2007, 22:56
nin
 
http://kotaku.com/gaming/wii/spore-developer-chris-hecker-apologizes-for-calling-the-wii-a-piece-of-shit-242822.php

Looks like someone got smacked around a bit, and was urged to clarify...

"When I'm on stage, I'm me. I'm talking talk from me. From me. I'm not representing EA or Maxis."



-----------------------------------------------------
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23.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 22:03
23.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 22:03
Mar 8, 2007, 22:03
 
I have a High End PC, a Xbox 360, Wii, PSP and DS.
I play Wii and DS the more often as those systems have games that I actually have fun playing rather than drool over eye candy.

I play Wii Sports way more than I play Gears of War.


The only thing that that says is that the Wii and DS currently have games you like better. It doesn't say anything of the respective qualities of the machines.

I think the point that Hecker is trying to make is that the Wii is too underpowered to really take its games beyond what it's currently doing.

Then again, I doubt anyone could have predicted God of War II on the PS2 five years ago, so time will tell if he's right.

Not all games need great AI, the illusion of good AI is good enough for most games

How exactly the ILLUSION of good AI different from good AI? What, can you fake AI or something? In the end, AI is a very very very long series of what/if statements. The Illusion of some would be a series of what/if statements as well. Right?
I'm willing to be proven wrong on this tho.

Can I ask when was the last time you played a game and said the AI was amazing and led to greater enjoyment of a game

Fear and Galciv2 come fairly easily to mind.

good AI is very difficult to get right.

Absolutely. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't TRY
Or, build a machine that probably won't be able to do it anyways. (speculation, I have no idea how powerful or not the Wii is.)


Creston

This comment was edited on Mar 8, 22:04.
Avatar 15604
22.
 
Re: GT HD
Mar 8, 2007, 22:00
22.
Re: GT HD Mar 8, 2007, 22:00
Mar 8, 2007, 22:00
 
Because the graphics guys would otherwise be working on the story? Or the coders would be?

I can see a company not choosing to emphasize the story, but to claim that it automatically translates into less time spent on stories is just a cop-out.


Well, you could say that Dev A has enough funding to hire 20 guys to work on this game.

With AAA next gen graphics, 15 of those guys would need to be graphics guys, leaving 5 guys for all the rest.

If you decide to take slightly less Crysis like graphics, you could probably hire 10 guys for the graphics, and have ten guys to do all the other requirements.

So in a way what he says does make sense. Ofcourse, ever since Ex Deus, Warren has been talking a lot, mostly out of his ass, and has no game to show whatsoever. Soon he'll be known as 3dRealms Spector.

Creston


Avatar 15604
21.
 
Re: GT HD
Mar 8, 2007, 19:50
21.
Re: GT HD Mar 8, 2007, 19:50
Mar 8, 2007, 19:50
 
Spector believes that next-gen graphics require more attention, thus more time. That's time less spent on stories he says.

Because the graphics guys would otherwise be working on the story? Or the coders would be?

I can see a company not choosing to emphasize the story, but to claim that it automatically translates into less time spent on stories is just a cop-out.

20.
 
Re: GT HD
Mar 8, 2007, 19:40
TB
20.
Re: GT HD Mar 8, 2007, 19:40
Mar 8, 2007, 19:40
TB
 
You got it wrong Xenopulse, GTHDs engine is just GT4s modified for the PS3, GT5 uses its own engine.

And yes LittleBigPlent does own, but then try putting that on the wii.... yeah that aint gunna work. I 100% agree with the guy, the wii is crap. I mean giving devs new halfassed platforms is one thing but one made from last gens tech is just plain pathetic.

19.
 
Big Graphics make Small Stories
Mar 8, 2007, 19:27
19.
Big Graphics make Small Stories Mar 8, 2007, 19:27
Mar 8, 2007, 19:27
 
Since someone said basically "These are Spore developers so they should be taken seriously and I believe that this echoes all developers feelings that they hate the Wii"

Here is a rebuttle from another person in the "Gaming Industry"

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/03/08/can-next-gen-graphics-hinder-storylines/

This comment was edited on Mar 8, 19:28.
18.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 17:46
18.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 17:46
Mar 8, 2007, 17:46
 
It's easy to see that the Wii is popular now, but I'm more interested in the playing field a year from now. Once some of the so-called "next gen" titles come out - on PS3 and Xbox360, how many people will still be flocking to the Wii? Maybe they'll continue to want the latest Mario/Zelda games, but I doubt that'll be satisfying long-term.

I suppose they might lose the Hardcore gamers like ourselves, but it seems the target market of the Wii is the casual gamer. Just look at most of the (good)games so far, the party games dominate.

Just to give you an example, usually when I get my friends over for a few beers we play a sports game like Pro Evolution Soccer, last time they came around I stuck on Wii Sports and we played it for hours while drinking beers. Even some of other wives and girlfriends started playing. Everyone of the non-gamers(or casual gamers) who played thought it was amazing and instantly wanted to buy the Wii. That is Nintendo’s target market, and I bet they make up more of the population than the Hardcore Gamers.

The last thing you want to hear when implementing a design is "ok so what do we have to cut".

That happens in every game even those on the Xbox360 and the PS3, they have to cut something. It is maybe because of time constraints, money, man-power or even technical limitations of the Hardware.

My view is that for too long devs have been focusing on making shinier graphics and they have neglected gameplay. I wish we could go back to the days when gameplay was king, but that is the retro gamer in me speaking. I still have enormous fun when I fire up one of my older games on the Spectrum.

If you look at those old games and compare them to the latest games you realise how much the graphics have evolved but the gameplay has pretty much stayed static.
This comment was edited on Mar 8, 17:56.
17.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 16:45
17.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 16:45
Mar 8, 2007, 16:45
 
"ok so what do we have to cut".

It wasn't long ago that devs were saying this when porting from the PC to consoles. And it won't be long before the PC video and processing power make the PS3 and 360 look like a piece of shit. Of course, they'll be porting from the 360 to the PC and the devs should be saying "damn, we could have done so much more with this".

That's why I find it funny Hecker is getting all snooty about how the 360 and PS3 consoles are so uber. Sorry dude, being all high and mighty about bleeding edge hardware tech is still reserved for us PC gamers. Besides, the console market is filled with mostly standard definition TVs. The masses can't see a difference anyways. Hence, the cheaper wii does well.

16.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 16:31
16.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 16:31
Mar 8, 2007, 16:31
 
As for warhawk it hasnt been chopped up, the devs decided ages ago that there was no point splitting up the team into single and multiplayer so they put all effort into multiplayer to get the most out of it.

Hmm, I wondered if I was imagining things so yesterday I went and downloaded a bunch of older Warhawk videos compared to the most recent footage we see showing the multiplayer gameplay and the differences are obvious. The ground in older videos was a lot more detailed and the environments you flew around in were taller and more complex.

The new footage of Warhawk is a major step down, so when I say they gutted the game I mean the game I was expecting is no longer there, the graphics have changed, the environments have changed, the experience is different. It's a different game altogether now. I'm really dissapointed.

15.
 
Re: talkin bout SPORE team here
Mar 8, 2007, 16:26
15.
Re: talkin bout SPORE team here Mar 8, 2007, 16:26
Mar 8, 2007, 16:26
 
not some graphics tech demo shooter clone, but a 5-Star triple-A innovative product and studio. i know Chris Hecker is a human flame thrower but if the Spore guys are grumbling there's at least some amount of credibility.

I would love to have been at the GDC and seen the audience reaction to his statements.
I suspect the outburst revelas a dirty little industry secret - that privately most commercial devs don't really like working with the wii all that much due to it's limitations.

The last thing you want to hear when implementing a design is "ok so what do we have to cut".

This comment was edited on Mar 8, 16:34.
14.
 
Re: GDC 2007: The Wii is a Piece of S***
Mar 8, 2007, 16:04
14.
Re: GDC 2007: The Wii is a Piece of S*** Mar 8, 2007, 16:04
Mar 8, 2007, 16:04
 
To me the biggest probs with the Wii are:
-No HD. We PC gamers have been in HD for more than 10 years now. There's not much necessary to make a system compatible with HD resolutions. The Wii should've came with Wii, because right now the gaming community can play their 360/PS3/PC on an HDTV, then they have to go to a different TV (SDTV) to play Wii (unless you tolerate the CRAP!!! res of 480i/p on an HDTV). PCs have been doing HD resolutions for 10 years, and msot of those computers back then were far weaker than the Wii/Gamecube, so it's not an issue of power. Just cuz a game is in 1024x720 doesn't mean it has to have awesome graphics, ya know?
-No true surround sound. The Wii still uses Pro Logic II, no optical audio hookup. Ew!
Adventures of a video game mercenary
http://virtualmerc.blogspot.com
13.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 15:20
13.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 15:20
Mar 8, 2007, 15:20
 
It's easy to see that the Wii is popular now, but I'm more interested in the playing field a year from now. Once some of the so-called "next gen" titles come out - on PS3 and Xbox360, how many people will still be flocking to the Wii? Maybe they'll continue to want the latest Mario/Zelda games, but I doubt that'll be satisfying long-term.

12.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 15:19
Tom
12.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 15:19
Mar 8, 2007, 15:19
Tom
 
It's a simple line of thinking. Developer resources are finite. The more powerful the system, the more pressure there is to disproportionately spend (waste) them on fancy graphics. As for making successful (fun-contributing) AI, I agree with those who say it's less a matter of horsepower and more a matter of clever coding.

I think a lot of people learned something about this stuff with how things turned out between the DS and PSP. Apparently, Chris Hecker is not one of those people.

11.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 14:39
Nox
11.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 14:39
Mar 8, 2007, 14:39
Nox
 
I'll never understand the line of thinking that seems to say that decent graphics / AI are mutually exclusive of "gameplay". If you make a decent system hardware wise, then you can have both, depending on the software that's developed. If you don't have decent hardware, then you've already eliminated the possibility of having decent graphics / AI no matter what the software developer does.

10.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 14:36
10.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 14:36
Mar 8, 2007, 14:36
 
Uh, and last time I checked having a decent CPU that can handle decent AI helps games be FUN and ENTERTAINING.
Sure, and you might have a point if anyone ever bothered to use them for creating a good AI rather than just adding more eye-candy.

This comment was edited on Mar 8, 14:36.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
Avatar 9540
9.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 14:22
9.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 14:22
Mar 8, 2007, 14:22
 
Chris Hecker is a @#$ing idiot. Games are meant to be FUN first and an artform second. Last time I checked we are in the ENTERTAINMENT industry.

I would love to have been at the GDC and seen the audience reaction to his statements.

I think we all can agree that the Wii is the least powerful(graphics + processing power) of all the Consoles, but in the end you can have all the best graphics and AI in the World but if the gameplay is not there then your game will suck.

I have a High End PC, a Xbox 360, Wii, PSP and DS.
I play Wii and DS the more often as those systems have games that I actually have fun playing rather than drool over eye candy.

I play Wii Sports way more than I play Gears of War.

Uh, and last time I checked having a decent CPU that can handle decent AI helps games be FUN and ENTERTAINING.

Or did you miss that part??

Not all games need great AI, the illusion of good AI is good enough for most games. Can I ask when was the last time you played a game and said the AI was amazing and led to greater enjoyment of a game ?

Good AI is very difficult to get right.
This comment was edited on Mar 8, 14:26.
8.
 
Re: No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 14:20
Nox
8.
Re: No subject Mar 8, 2007, 14:20
Mar 8, 2007, 14:20
Nox
 
Chris Hecker is a @#$ing idiot. Games are meant to be FUN first and an artform second. Last time I checked we are in the ENTERTAINMENT industry.

Uh, and last time I checked having a decent CPU that can handle decent AI helps games be FUN and ENTERTAINING.

Or did you miss that part??

7.
 
No subject
Mar 8, 2007, 13:42
7.
No subject Mar 8, 2007, 13:42
Mar 8, 2007, 13:42
 
Chris Hecker is a @#$ing idiot. Games are meant to be FUN first and an artform second. Last time I checked we are in the ENTERTAINMENT industry.

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