SiN Episodes Q&A

Tom Mustaine Talks SiN on 1UP talks with the recently departed Ritual tribesman about what he's up to, and what's going on with the second installment in SiN Episodes:
But he did express a feeling that the world hadn't been quite as ready for episodic content and digital delivery as they had banked on it being. The problems of being able to sell in stores also came up with him adding "we would have been better off selling it at $35 than $19. At 19 bucks it went straight to the shit bin in many places."

Along with marketing struggles, the team ran into new challenges once they got the first episode out the door. Mustaine explained, "we could have done episode 2 in 6 months, but we'd have needed double the team size just to keep up with the Half-Life 2 engine." As it turns out, hitching their wagon to Valve became as much a curse as blessing. Besides having to merge the code every time the engine was updated, it also drew inevitable comparisons to Half-Life 2. So, the lack of a gravity gun, for instance, stood out as something "missing" from SiN to some gamers. And then there were the distractions. With Original SiN -- the remake of SiN using the Source engine -- up and running, and the pull of doing multiplayer with the new episodic game Mustaine said that it was hard to keep focused on just cranking out the next episode.
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54.
 
Re: Episodic content already exsists...
Dec 23, 2006, 01:57
54.
Re: Episodic content already exsists... Dec 23, 2006, 01:57
Dec 23, 2006, 01:57
 
It's the amount of NEW content that people are paying for in either case...it's still a small amount that people are paying for (be it in an espisodic or yearly sequal format).
That is why even EA admits that most of its customers don't buy the new version each year. There is simply not enough new content and features to warrant it for most of them.

There is NO WAY that I believe the yearly released sports titles are only purchased by a "hardcore minority".
I don't believe it either because it is not what I wrote. What is true is that only the hardcore minority of sports game players buy the new release EVERY year. Most will at least skip a year or two.

Those games are very often in top sales slots for good periods of time. That means a lot of people, not just a small miniorty, are purchasing these titles.
You are literally missing the big picture. Sports games have a MUCH broader appeal than the typical video game so there are simply multiple times more consumers who purchase these games than other types. So, even if only a quarter of these sports game players purchase the new verson in a given year, that number will still dwarf the sales of most other games. EA marketing representatives have publicly commented before that only a relatively small percentage of its customers purchase each new release of a given sports title.

If SiN Episodes had been released for $35 instead of episodic format, it still would have been the same game...gameplay, in game assests, etc. That is what hurt what was released, not just how it was released.
The reason why the Sin Episode was not a full game is because Ritual didn't take the time to make a full game. That is the reason it did not sell well. The word-of-mouth on the game was poor due to its lack of content and mediocre gameplay.

This comment was edited on Dec 23, 02:07.
53.
 
Re: What a shame
Dec 23, 2006, 01:47
53.
Re: What a shame Dec 23, 2006, 01:47
Dec 23, 2006, 01:47
 
People perceive lower priced products to be of inferior quality, and will therefore specifically choose not to buy them because of the perceived lower quality.
That is bullshit when it comes to entertainment products. All movies in a theater usually cost the same price. Most movies and music sold at retail are all about the same price. And in many cases, the most successful or largest budget movies cost a little less on DVD than more obscure or less popular ones.

The overwhelming majority of consumers buy entertainment products based upon impulse, word-of-mouth, and marketing buzz not based upon which ones cost more. Video games are no different.

This comment was edited on Dec 29, 00:22.
52.
 
Re: Episodic content already exsists...
Dec 23, 2006, 01:30
52.
Re: Episodic content already exsists... Dec 23, 2006, 01:30
Dec 23, 2006, 01:30
 
But Mustaine is also full of shit on that. Every major retailer in the U.S. that I visited like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Target, CompUSA, and Circuit City had the Sin Episode sitting on the shelf right next to the $50 games. It wasn't relegated into some hidden bin with other less expensive games. And, if anything that created a perception that the Sin Episode was a real, full-length game when it was not.

Perception. That's the key. People perceive things differently. Me, I go into a store and see a cheap game setting on a shelf beside a higher priced one and I think 'hmm, low price probably means low budget and shoddy gameplay,' which I think a lot of people think also, whether or not it's right or wrong. Just as many other people will see a cheap game by a more expensive one and think 'wow, if it's beside the expensive games it must be good.'
All in all, I just usually wait for expensive games to become cheap games and then buy them.

As for the sports game being episodic, I consider them seasonal not episodic. But, if you want to play the teams with the newest rosters, stats, and rankings you have to buy the new game. In that respect they are somewhat comparable to episodic games, in that I don't think I've ever seen a game company offer a roster/stat update to a year old game. So, for someone who just has to have the latest teams with their players the sport game is only a complete game until the next season of that sport. Then it's complete for last season, not this season, and it's time to buy this years complete game.
Personally, I don't give a leaping lizard about sports games. I don't own any, don't plan to. Sure, I'll play one with someone else but that's about as far as it goes.

51.
 
Re: Episodic content already exsists...
Dec 22, 2006, 23:51
51.
Re: Episodic content already exsists... Dec 22, 2006, 23:51
Dec 22, 2006, 23:51
 
Riley Pizt,

You are missing what I am saying. It's the amount of NEW content that people are paying for in either case. Otherwise, especially for the sports titles, there would be no reason to purchase the new version as gameplay doesn't usually change. So, whether there is a small amount of new content or story, it's still a small amount that people are paying for (be it in an espisodic or yearly sequal format). EA has just convinced people (or they have convinced themselves) that it is worth paying full price for that small amount of new content.

There is NO WAY that I believe the yearly released sports titles are only purchased by a "hardcore minority". Those games are very often in top sales slots for good periods of time. That means a lot of people, not just a small miniorty, are purchasing these titles. Even if some people are skipping a year or two, the sales figures don't seem to be affected greatly by those few.

If SiN Episodes had been released for $35 instead of episodic format, it still would have been the same game...gameplay, in game assests, etc. That is what hurt what was released, not just how it was released.

50.
 
Re: What a shame
Dec 22, 2006, 22:21
50.
Re: What a shame Dec 22, 2006, 22:21
Dec 22, 2006, 22:21
 
I can because his real thinking is "I wish we could have squeezed another $15 out of each idiot who bought our game. Those hard-core fans idiots would have bought the game anyway."

People perceive lower priced products to be of inferior quality, and will therefore specifically choose not to buy them because of the perceived lower quality.

49.
 
Re: What a shame
Dec 22, 2006, 21:18
49.
Re: What a shame Dec 22, 2006, 21:18
Dec 22, 2006, 21:18
 
Maybe selling it at 35 bucks would have helped?

I can't believe he even said that.
I can because his real thinking is "I wish we could have squeezed another $15 out of each idiot who bought our game. Those hard-core fans idiots would have bought the game anyway."


48.
 
Re: Episodic content already exsists...
Dec 22, 2006, 21:11
48.
Re: Episodic content already exsists... Dec 22, 2006, 21:11
Dec 22, 2006, 21:11
 
Whether the "new" content is related to story or in-game assets, my point was that for what "new" stuff people get, in sports titles or episodic releases, it is basically the same amount overall.
It's NOT the same amount. Sports titles are complete games in their own right. Even if successive releases don't have a great deal of changes from previous ones, each sports release is still a complete game with a complete game's worth of content as well. With episodic releases that is NOT the case. Episodes aren't complete games, and the amount of content in each one is not complete either.

Yet, EA has been able to rake in the bucks by getting people to purchase a new game each year using this model (which is basically episodic content/releases).
No it doesn't. People who purchase new sports games every year are a very hardcore minority. By EA's own admission, most of its sports title customers will skip one or two years between purchases.

You missed what I was saying about SiN Episodes being episodic not hurting it.
I didn't miss it. It is simply wrong.

What I meant was that it wasn't the fact that it was episodic that hurt it, but, the gameplay/conent of that episode that hurt it (basically as you said).
It was both. The content was both too scarce and too mediocre.

This comment was edited on Dec 29, 00:23.
47.
 
Re: What a shame
Dec 22, 2006, 18:39
47.
Re: What a shame Dec 22, 2006, 18:39
Dec 22, 2006, 18:39
 
OpFor and Blue Shift, right? Each about 6-8 hours for $20?

OpFor retailed for 39.99 when it first came out. In fact that was the big mark against in reviews, that it was so fucking expensive. Same deal with Blue Shift although it's retail release included OpFor with it.

Also play through them again, I think you'll be hard pressed to get more than 5 hours out of OpFor, and BlueShift is all of about 2 1/2 hours long.

46.
 
Re: What a shame
Dec 22, 2006, 17:25
46.
Re: What a shame Dec 22, 2006, 17:25
Dec 22, 2006, 17:25
 
Sadly, Valve has too many monkeys/fanboys who will keep buying their episodic drivel for it to die out completely.

Disagreed. I think Valve sees the writing on the walls, hence the massive E2 pack.

I'm sure they're still trying it, to see what works, as it does help them make stronger gameplay, but so many other aspects are sacrificed.


I'm fine with one big game, then three episodes to expand it. I'd prefer three actual expansions, but I can deal with three episodes.
But when Gabe started saying there would be no HL3, and the expansions were, in fact, HL3... yeah... no way would I care about Valve if they stuck to that.

Lastly, what were the HL expansions? OpFor and Blue Shift, right? Each about 6-8 hours for $20? Even there we had a better deal than episodes.

-------------
Doomriders: the first new band worth a signature - http://www.deathwishinc.com/
45.
 
What a shame
Dec 22, 2006, 16:13
45.
What a shame Dec 22, 2006, 16:13
Dec 22, 2006, 16:13
 
Episodic content not what it seemed to be : A cashcow for developers.

Gee, imagine that, people not feeling comfortable splashing 20 bucks on the table for four hours of "gameplay" with the exact same assets as the previous episode. It's crazy!

Maybe selling it at 35 bucks would have helped?

I can't believe he even said that. Are all game developers so far removed from reality that they really think that that would make a difference? Sin Ep1 was on the shelf at Best Buy for about two months, and during that two months, the stack remained exactly the same. So I doubt anyone bought it. It had nothing to do with it being in the shitbin. Unless you consider Best Buy's entire PC lineup to be a shitbin, which is probably true.

Sadly, Valve has too many monkeys/fanboys who will keep buying their episodic drivel for it to die out completely. But I'm very pleased that the other dev's attempt to do has failed spectacularly. No offense against Ritual, I have nothing against them, but episodic content will be PC gaming's tombstone if it continues.

Creston


Avatar 15604
44.
 
Re: ...
Dec 22, 2006, 14:59
44.
Re: ... Dec 22, 2006, 14:59
Dec 22, 2006, 14:59
 
It's just because I enjoy the HL universe way more than I do the Sin one. It seems many gamers felt the same.

I think a very important part is that there ISN'T much of a Sin Universe to enjoy. Looking back at the time when I played Sin and HL, I realize it has been pretty different back then. After HL I didn't really want to know how the story continued, that only came with the HL2 hype. Meanwhile Sin made me want to play on.

HL set up a story with the original game, explored the catastrophe at Black Mesa from two more angles in expansions, disappeared for a few years and came back strong with HL2 and then the first episode to continue the story. HL2 added a lot of substance to the HL "universe", and because of the rather subtle storytelling, people want more episodes/games to play.

Sin on the other hand does not have this game that adds significantly more story to become a "universe" because Emergence is so far only "more of the same". It's not an universe at all, although it could have been. Everything is focused on "chase Elexis" during the first game, the expansion added a more or less independent plot with a twist. Everything evolves around Elexis, about how she disappears and about if she's coming back. With only Emergence, nothing makes sense anymore. Elexis is back, period. How? Why? When? No idea, I prolly have to play 1337 episodes to find out (this post might imply I don't like Emergence but I enjoyed it quite a bit, and I really want them to finish what they had in mind with the story). Freeport is a completely different city now, same questions, no answers here. There's the "mysterious" sidekick - but in fact she's just rather annoying and doesn't contribute much besides being a meatshield for the rather unfair end levels. There we have a confused and mute Blade and we have no idea WTF he's up to. I wanted to know more about what happened after the first game but now I hardly care anymore. "Throw player into new world and slowly uncover the changes since the last game" simply doesn't work in an episodic sequel to a several-years old game without some people losing interest and others not being interested to begin with.

IMO they tried to mimic Valve's approach and failed because there was no "HL2" version of Sin. And to be honest, would we actually be as psyched about HL2 if after 6 years there was nothing but a 4hr episode with a story that seems to make no sense, explains nothing and offers little new? Say, if instead of HL2 we would had gotten the part from waking up in the train till reaching Dr Vance, with only the crowbar, pistol and SMG for weapons and nothing but the initial combine troopers and headcrabs as enemies, plowing through some backyards and then an extended sewer sequence - what would we have thought of the game (also ignoring that the fanbase of HL is a lot larger to begin with)? Sin needed a whole game to introduce the player to the new Freeport and the returned Elexis, uncover parts of the story development and THEN it could have jumped to episodes, explaining what was going on in detail.

Besides, although partially fun Emergence suffered from several bad design decisions. The limited variety overall (few badguys to fight, only three guns, scenery) and the overall look and feel more often than not made me think I'm playing a watered down version of HL2, cut to sell in several parts, instead of a unique game. Add to that after Sin vs. HL, they should have known that launching Emergence only shortly before the much more hyped/coveted HL2-Ep1 was going to be a bad idea. It all came down to Emergence being directly compared to "Aftermath" (which to me felt more like a short expansion than a real "Episode" with the features of the original FULL game + some) and falling short of the latter in almost every aspect.

{ There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt }
|[ Jesus is coming. Look busy! ]|
43.
 
Re: No subject
Dec 22, 2006, 12:06
43.
Re: No subject Dec 22, 2006, 12:06
Dec 22, 2006, 12:06
 
it seems the modding community of old isn't as huge as it was with the Half Life/Unreal/UT/Quake Days.

I've been yelled at here when I point this out. But it's very true. There are far fewer mods, as they take many more resources, and interest in them is extremely low. Whenever I say this people link me to Doom 3 mods, or UT mods... but is anyone actually playing them?

But Mustaine is also full of shit on that. Every major retailer in the U.S. that I visited like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Target, CompUSA, and Circuit City had the Sin Episode sitting on the shelf right next to the $50 games. It wasn't relegated into some hidden bin with other less expensive games. And, if anything that created a perception that the Sin Episode was a real, full-length game when it was not.

I hate when I have to agree with you.
Hell, I remember SiN:E1 being featured in Best Buy and Circuit City flyers the week it came out. It was in both's ads at least one other time, most likely more.

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Doomriders: the first new band worth a signature - http://www.deathwishinc.com/
42.
 
Re: Episodic content already exsists...
Dec 22, 2006, 11:35
42.
Re: Episodic content already exsists... Dec 22, 2006, 11:35
Dec 22, 2006, 11:35
 
Oh. Damn right. Blood? IF they remade Blood and Blood 2 in Source, kept the humor and gore? I'd DEFINITELY buy it again.

Apr 14, 2022, 12:31
Sempai
"i hope this ones good. I'm ready for the farts and dildos! "
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41.
 
Re: No subject
Dec 22, 2006, 10:39
41.
Re: No subject Dec 22, 2006, 10:39
Dec 22, 2006, 10:39
 

Honestly if I was Ritual I'd head over to CBS and make a few more Star Trek Elite Forces games.

Yes! And talk them into allowing gibbage in their universe!

BTW - I enjoyed Emergence as well. No, it wasn't a great game, but to me it was worth the $19 they charged.

Every time I read a comment like "Game X was a crappy game, and if you liked it you have no taste in games, blah blah", I think "Who the fuck died and left you in charge?" Who is *anybody* who can tell someone else what they should or should not like? If you didn't like it, fine, but don't tell me what's good and what's not. As the saying goes, beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder, and *nobody* has the right to tell someone their taste in *anything* is bad.

Oops, seems like this turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry about that ....



-----------------------------------
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There's no place like 127.0.0.1
40.
 
Re: Episodic content already exsists...
Dec 22, 2006, 10:24
40.
Re: Episodic content already exsists... Dec 22, 2006, 10:24
Dec 22, 2006, 10:24
 
Riley Pizt,

I wasn't conveniently overlooking the difference. Whether the "new" content is related to story or in-game assets, my point was that for what "new" stuff people get, in sports titles or episodic releases, it is basically the same amount overall. Yet, EA has been able to rake in the bucks by getting people to purchase a new game each year using this model (which is basically episodic content/releases).

You missed what I was saying about SiN Episodes being episodic not hurting it. What I meant was that it wasn't the fact that it was episodic that hurt it, but, the gameplay/conent of that episode that hurt it (basically as you said).

Eye 4N Eye,

True about sports games being the SAME game. I'm still suprised people are willing to pay full price for what could effectively be an update patch. Pretty sad...lol.

*****

I think another one of the things that hurt SiN Episodes was similar to what happened with Blood and Blood 2. Blood has LOTS of humor and a "fun" feel to it. They basically did what they could to include a lot of humor in the game (ala Duke Nukem, Shadow Warrior). However, when they made Blood 2, they tried to "grow up" and make a more realistic type of game. For that series, it just didn't work (i.e. lost the feel of the original) EVEN thou it followed the same gameplay type/style of the original where you kill lots of the same type of enemy over and over (hmmm...just like F.E.A.R. which was also from Monolith).

In the same way, SiN had lots of (tongue in cheek) humor and over the top aspects to the gameplay. SiN Episodes basically had Blade on mute mode which affected the tone/feel of the game. And, like Blood 2, SiN Episodes had less of an over the top (comic book) tone as well. It would be like making a sequal to Big Trouble in Little China without the humor/fun. It just doesn't work when people expect a certain "feel" too it. Again, this is something that affects every developer that tries to meet the expectations of gamers when they release a sequal.

39.
 
Re: No subject
Dec 22, 2006, 10:05
39.
Re: No subject Dec 22, 2006, 10:05
Dec 22, 2006, 10:05
 
He's not talking about the length of the game, you twat. He's referring to the idea that games selling for $19.99 are "budget games" that nobody is going to buy, so they send them to a bargain bin/rack away from real products thereby damning a product to poor sales.
But Mustaine is also full of shit on that. Every major retailer in the U.S. that I visited like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Target, CompUSA, and Circuit City had the Sin Episode sitting on the shelf right next to the $50 games. It wasn't relegated into some hidden bin with other less expensive games. And, if anything that created a perception that the Sin Episode was a real, full-length game when it was not.


38.
 
Re: No subject
Dec 22, 2006, 09:19
38.
Re: No subject Dec 22, 2006, 09:19
Dec 22, 2006, 09:19
 
Yeah but when I look at buying games I look at amount of playtime I'll have with the game longterm. Single Player is great but there are a few games that I would play more then twice or three times before I 'shelf it'. Now if a game has multiplayer, modability etc then I also factor that in.

For example: Bridge Commander. Paid 50 bucks for it when it was released. Had solid long singer player and multiplayer. And has/had one hell of a modding community that has taken it above and beyond the boxed game.

Now take Sin Episodes: For 20 bucks I get a 4 hour game. No Multiplayer, and it seems the modding community of old isn't as huge as it was with the Half Life/Unreal/UT/Quake Days. So I think to myself 'how good was Sin and the expansion pack' and I get good feelings but not enough to purchase the new reinteration. Plus I also read your guys reviews cause alot of you have the same tastes in games that I do, and also give some pretty brutal reviews.

I guess it comes down to there is no real reason/draw for me to purchase anything in the Sin Universe. It's like Prey, they have portals, and a really cool opening sequence with the bar being torn up, but after that the demo felt all Doom 3'ish which Human Head reinvented Doom's Monster Closets with Portal Closets. Walking on walls was kinda cool from a tech standpoint, but from a gameplay standpoint it did nothing for me.

Honestly if I was Ritual I'd head over to CBS and make a few more Star Trek Elite Forces games.

Avatar 12670
37.
 
Re: No subject
Dec 22, 2006, 09:01
37.
Re: No subject Dec 22, 2006, 09:01
Dec 22, 2006, 09:01
 
'twat'?

Yeah. That automatically validates your point right there.
Yup.

I buy games when they're cheaper. It's called 'not having enough money'.

However, if you would have actually paid 35 bucks for it? You've really no place to be tossin names around.

Apr 14, 2022, 12:31
Sempai
"i hope this ones good. I'm ready for the farts and dildos! "
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36.
 
Re: No subject
Dec 22, 2006, 08:35
PHJF
 
36.
Re: No subject Dec 22, 2006, 08:35
Dec 22, 2006, 08:35
 PHJF
 
"we would have been better off selling it at $35 than $19. At 19 bucks it went straight to the shit bin in many places."

He's not talking about the length of the game, you twat. He's referring to the idea that games selling for $19.99 are "budget games" that nobody is going to buy, so they send them to a bargain bin/rack away from real products thereby damning a product to poor sales.

Whatever. I liked Emergence.

------
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35.
 
No subject
Dec 22, 2006, 08:17
35.
No subject Dec 22, 2006, 08:17
Dec 22, 2006, 08:17
 
Let's see.. how long was SiN Ep 1?
4 hours? about that...
And he wanted us to pay 35 bucks for a mediocre 4 hour experience?

GB2EA, man.


See.. If it was a mind-blowing 4 hours, like say.. Lord of the Rings good, I'd MAYBE pay 15 bucks. Maybe. [Hell. I pay for WoW, don't I?]

As for original SiN, you don't pull that Source BS. You sit your ass down, and remakes ALL the art assets. All of them. I want shiney, pretty new stuff. If Half Life 1 was redone properly, I might buy it again, because I like the Source engine, and I like the level of detail in HL2. Don't slap the levels together, use the old crap, and say 'Durr.. Done!'. Because it isn't a proper remake.

'Boo hoo.. lack of a gravity gun'.

Was it in the first game? [I forget. I can't really get it to run right anymore on my system, which is why I was hoping for a brand-spankin remake of SiN, not that half-ass.] There's other ideas for guns out there, you know. Gravity an portal might be the 'in' thing right now. Surpass them. Don't copy.

Apr 14, 2022, 12:31
Sempai
"i hope this ones good. I'm ready for the farts and dildos! "
Avatar 22954
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