Let's put it this way. There was a flaw in a game, right? Flaws in games are the fault of developers. And the flaw made me bored, right? Therefore the developers made me bored.

I agree with everything except the "flaw made me bored" part. A flaw cannot make you bored. Especially a flaw that you can avoid. You might be able to get away with "My preoccupation with the flaw made me bored". Of course, then you are back to you, because it would be your preoccupation that lead to the problem.

Look, I don't think anyone is denying that it's a flaw. However, if can only be a problem if it's unavoidable. In this case, it most certainly is not. And you have never answered - exactly what would be a problem with playing the game without going to 130% Chameleon? Put some other enchantments on your armour, and play away. Unless there's some inner need you have for full invisibility, I'm not sure why that wouldn't be fun. Unless you're just bored with the game in general.

I think we are going to have to assume he turned up the difficulty.

That would be a logical assumption but it would also be logical to stop doing something (in this case, using 130% Chameleon) that's making the game too easy. Keep in mind that Chameleon is a spell, not a stat. You don't have to create a new character to turn it off. You just have to stop wearing armor that's enchanted with the spell.

I'm not sure how you can "flesh out" a character that's constantly invisible. Obviously, if you are constantly invisible, nobody will be able to see you. Common sense. There is a reason why most games don't let you be constantly invisible. Beamer seems to be angry that Oblivion lets you be constantly invisible even though he very obviously went out of his way to do so.

I believe the main reason why Bethesda created Invisiblity/Chameleon spells in the first place is so that people could easily avoid unwanted battles. In game of this size and length, having to wade through the same enemies over and over again while traveling can grow tiresome. However, I doubt they intended for players to use these spells constantly or during battle, otherwise there would have been no point in even having enemy AI at all.

If you want the best stealth experience, don't use spells that make you completely invisible. Instead, sneak around, stick the shadows, operate at night, wait until enemies turn their backs to you, wear light armor, etc. Actually play like a stealthy character. Oblivion is an RPG, which means you actually have to play a role. If you want a game where you have no responsibility over your playing experience, stick to linear games without choice, like a rail shooter. Remember, with great choice comes great responsibility.

Videogames are not passive entertainment. What you put into a game affects what you get out of it.

I think we are going to have to assume he turned up the difficulty. He prolly even started up an alternate character(s) to play the game how it was intended. He may have even started up an uber-speechcraft character determined to talk his way thru the game. I think Beamer loves the game but is very disappointed that the character he took the time to create (uber -invisible) wasn't "fleshed" out by the devs/playtesters.

It's amazing that everyone here is quick to defend a flaw in a game, or quick to tell me I'm not allowed to find something boring due to a flaw in a game.

It's not so much that we're defending the unbalanced Chameleon spell as it is us criticizing you for exploiting it (at 130%, no less) and then proceeding to complain about the game being too easy.

But let's look at "balancing" the spell. As it stands, the spell renders you completely invisible at 100% while still being able to interact with objects and characters. So, how do we balance this out?

1) Make the player visible when he interacts with something.
2) Make the spell non-enchantable for constant effect.
3) Not let the spell stack up so players can't enchant multiple pieces of armor/items to reach 100%+ Chameleon.

Options 1 and 2 already apply to Invisibility. Option 3 would indeed solve your dilemma but tons of powerplayers would cry out and petition against Bethesda. So it seems like there is no plausible way to balance Chameleon. It is simply an inherently unbalanced spell (as it was in Morrowind). Thus, according to your logic, the developers should have never included it in the first place. That way, you wouldn't have been tempted to use it and wouldn't have ruined the game experience for yourself.

Okay. So, the developers included the spell and it's too late to change that. What can you do? Hmm... oh wait, I've got it! DON'T USE IT. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem like an option to you, since your exclusive responsibility is to be entertained regardless of what you do.

"Man, this movie sucks. I can't understand the plot while posting on Bluesnews, chatting with my friend on the phone and playing loud country music. Damn those filmmakers!"

"Yawn... this game is ssooooooo boring. If I get enemies to chase me and then I hop into this remote, hard to reach corner and use a clipping bug to hide behind a large crate, they won't be able to reach me. Then I can just shoot the edge of the hit boxes of their feet and kill them with ease. Damn those developers!"

"Bah! This is the worst racing game ever made! The first tier cars can't even keep up with me when I'm using the fastest car in the game! Horrible design!"

By the way, did you try turning up the difficulty in Oblivion?

My responsibility is not to "pay attention." My responsibility is to be entertained.

um, how can you be entertained if you're not paying attention?.....

It's hardly fair to go to the premiere of a box office hit, spend the entire time zoning out looking at your shoes/examining jr mints and thus not seeing Any of the movie, then say, "this movie didn't entertain me at all! Stupid directors! Stupid producers! Worthless actors!!!!!! And I PAID FOR THIS!!!!"

The sad thing is, based on your logic, or perhaps lack thereof, I foresee you playing the next oblivion expansion/next elder scrolls game and knowing what you know now (that using 130% chameleon ruins the game and makes it gay), you will still use 130% chameleon (or higher), then bash that game too. If you KNOW something ruins the game, DON'T DO IT! Period.


Further, if you knowingly exploit the game and purposely ruin the experience just to be an ass, why bother even buying the game? why not just have a friend buy it, ruin it, then bitch about it later, at least then you wouldn't waste any money.

It sounds as if you go out of your way to exploit flaws in games. I can imagine that if there was a game that didn't work with the 68.22 nvidia drivers, so you had to upgrade to correct the problem, you'd go out of your way to install the 68.22 drivers, bash nvidia, then bash the game developers for poor compatibility, Just for the sake of doing something you know is problematic/faulty, to point out the obvious.


Regardless, you now Know that using uber chameleon ruins the experience, so I genuinely hope that you Never plan on using it ever again, in any game, for the rest of your life. And if you do, well, then you're just a genuinely bothersome chap.

My responsibility is not to "pay attention." My responsibility is to be entertained. Exclusively. And if something is failing to keep me entertained it would be my own fault if I stuck with it, would it not?

It's the responsibility of the people I am paying to keep me entertained. If they fail they will not get further money from me.


This is not simple-minded. Nor is this remotely similar to turning a game off and reloading if things do not go my way. This is an unbalanced game. Plain and simple. It would have been very easy to fix, but it wasn't properly play tested in this area.

And by the time I realized it I was bored.




It's amazing that everyone here is quick to defend a flaw in a game, or quick to tell me I'm not allowed to find something boring due to a flaw in a game.

Let's put it this way. There was a flaw in a game, right? Flaws in games are the fault of developers. And the flaw made me bored, right? Therefore the developers made me bored.

It's very simple logic. I didn't have to play that way. But I did. Within the rules of the game, unlike EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE GIVEN HERE outside of the CS camping example (which isn't entirely the same, CS campers still have some form of challenge, I had none.)


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Doomriders: the first new band worth a signature - http://www.deathwishinc.com/

And nin, perhaps I should explain my logic to you. As I said before, a game is only great if you make it that way. You can easily ruin the greatest of games by cheating or exploiting bugs and unbalanced features. I know because I used to be a chronic cheater. I would flip on God mode, all weapons, all items, etc, as soon as I started any game and as such, many of my early gameplay experiences were completely ruined. I can never get those experiences back since time has passed, my standards have changed and first impressions are always the most important. Since then, I've made a vow to never cheat, use strategy guides (unless I'm completely stuck) or exploit any bugs or features that would ultimately cheapen the experience. Thanks to these rules, I now enjoy games much more than I used to.

It sounds cheesy as hell, but it's absolutely true.

It's not my job as a gamer to keep interested in a game, it's the developers job to make sure there are no broken features and make sure the gamer stays interested.

You may not realize it, but you have a responsibility for everything you do. When you watch a movie, you have a responsibility to pay attention and watch it in the appropriate setting. When you play a game, you have a responsibility to not cheat/exploit unbalanced aspects of gameplay. It's your job to ensure that you get the most out of your entertainment. Developers can create the greatest game ever made, but if you spoil the experience by playing cheaply, the resulting boredom is completely your fault. No game is perfectly balanced and there are always things you can do to ruin the fun.

And nin, perhaps I should explain my logic to you. As I said before, a game is only great if you make it that way. You can easily ruin the greatest of games by cheating or exploiting bugs and unbalanced features. I know because I used to be a chronic cheater. I would flip on God mode, all weapons, all items, etc, as soon as I started any game and as such, many of my early gameplay experiences were completely ruined. I can never get those experiences back since time has passed, my standards have changed and first impressions are always the most important. Since then, I've made a vow to never cheat, use strategy guides (unless I'm completely stuck) or exploit any bugs or features that would ultimately cheapen the experience. Thanks to these rules, I now enjoy games much more than I used to.

It was a hypothetical question, based on the comment:

So yeah, you can't justifiably complain about a game being too easy when you make it easy for yourself.

Not unlike how your comment:

If you're allergic to watermelon (and eating it will kill you) and somebody offers you a plate of sliced watermelon, it doesn't mean that you HAVE to eat it. Whereas if you're being held captive in Guantanamo Bay and they're shoving watermelon down your throat, you don't really have a choice.


...had nothing to do with Oblivion or Counter Strike.


Slight difference, you were comparing games with unbalanced weapons, which was inherently flawed, since Oblivion doesn't have any Überweapons. In my watermelon point, however, I was pointing out that in Oblivion, as in any game, there is always choice. Granted, if you're given a gravity gun/tommy gun with infinite ammo and there are no other weapons, then that's just gay and the developers should be executed in the streets. However, if you can switch between weapons, logic would dictate that you not use the cheapest one All the time. It really just comes back to responsibility.

If you don't have the responsibility to play the game right, you certainly don't have the responsibility to bitch. Like using 130% chameleon, nobody is forcing you to to defend it here to a bunch of anonymous internet weirdos.

Everybody has their own gaming preferences, just like everybody has their own opinions. That's fine, that's Freedom in action. However, if you Choose to play a certain way, you shouldn't come out and bash that style of play, especially if you continue to do so.

Playing CS:

*hides in a corner and headshots everybody with an AWP 10 times in a row*
"damn, awping people while hiding makes the game boring."
*hides and awps 50 more people*
"yawn...."


Playing Oblivion:

*puts on 130% chameleon and doesn't take it off. Quickly closes first gate.*
"wow, this game is really boring when you use 130% chameleon to close the gates"
*closes 3 more using 130% chameleon and skipping all enemy encounters*
"yawn."
*skips remaining gates*
"wow, this game sucks."

Logic dictates that in both cases, that if something is boring, that you should change. Does it not? Does boredom not make an incentive for you to change your ways?

Beamer: I gather that you played Morrowind, yes? Why aren't you still playing it? Why did you move to Oblivion? Because you got bored of Morrowind? Because it was the same thing over and over and you ultimately did everything? Bordem promotes change. Thus, if you're 10% into Oblivion and you get bored, you should likely change your ways of doing things, since you haven't even completed 90% of the game. And if you're 90% in and you're bored, you should either stop playing the game and move to another game or you should have changed your methods of playing as soon as it got bored.


When I played through Morrowind, I spent most of the time using longswords and chopping people to pieces (well, killing them at least. Elder Scrolls really needs to add dismemberment/gore, it would make it more entertaining), it got bored, so I began using bows and arrows, that got bored, so I began using spells. Then once I had completed about 95% of the game and used every spell/weapon/etc. and after I had killed all the hard enemies/gods, there was no reason to continue playing, so I stopped. Occassionally, I go back and look at the landscape, but that's about it.


Really though, based on the statements you've made, you're the fodder that Democrats like Hillary Clinton and Republicans like Jack Thompson use to "prove" that gamers are unoriginal, uncreative, and simple individuals, whose minds and abilities to think have been rotted away by video games.


If you get bored, DO something to change it, don't just stare mindlessly at the screen and zone out. You're a Gamer, for God's Sake! Act!


~Versailles

And how can people keep comparing a part of the main game to an easter egg reward for beatng the game?

Fairly Easily, mainly because both are "parts" of the game. And just like you don't HAVE to use the tommygun, you also don't HAVE to run around with 130% chameleon on all of the time. Now if your goal is to beat RE4 as quickly as possible, yeah, use the tommygun, you can then beat the game in about 4 hours or less, provided you skip all the cinematics and blow everything to shit. And yeah, using 130% chameleon to skip past all the gates also speeds the game along. But when you consider that closing the gates is part of the MAIN QUEST, it would make sense to play it as the developeres intended you on playing it. And chances are, the developers didn't intend you on putting on 5000% chameleon, 5000% speed, then running to the end of the map and closing the gate in 10 seconds. If they had, they wouldn't have strategically placed enemies all over the map.

Granted, I wouldn't have minded 130% chameleon for one of the gates I closed, but that was due to the fact that when I closed the first gate, I was a level 2 character, had NO WEAPONS (they all broke), and I had to defeat the enemies in the main room with the orb by running around backwards in circles shooting the default fireball spell at them. But what resulted from that? An actual challenge. So in the end, the victory was all the more sweet. Especially since the second I finished, I thought, "F*CCCCCKKKK!!!!!...That was a B!tch."

So again, if your main issue is being bored, use your brain (the same one that strategically thought out what amount of chameleon each piece of armor would need to fully shield yourself from the view of enemies) and do something to decrease your boredom. Raise the slider difficulty, don't use chameleon (or at least don't use it until you're on the verge of dying, then use it to recover), etc.

It's not my job as a gamer to keep interested in a game

Yes, it is. that's your duty as a gamer: to play games. And if YOU yourself personally ruin the game so much by making the game a chore rather than a pleasure, then you're obviously not playing the game. you're working. and working isn't fun. Unless you're a workaholic.

But it's the devs fault for making me sit there thinking about how cool it would be to do this, then making the game unappealing afterwards.

It's the devs fault for making you think that being completely invisible would be cool? How so? If you didn't understand that the concept of being completely invisible would mean that no one could see you, that's hardly anyone else's fault. Nor can you make any rational claim that using 130% Chameleon is a "part of the main game". As numerous people have pointed out, yes, you might be able to claim that enchanting is a major game feature, but there are plenty of enchantments to use that don't leave you with total invisibility.

Really, I'd compare it to the initial bug where you could end up with unlimited amounts of any item. Yes, that should have been caught and dealt with. But if you decided to take advantage of that, then you've lost all justification to claiming that the game is too easy.

If Oblivion is too easy, why not just move up the Difficulty slider to hard. That's why it's there.

My favorite is when people complaint that they are bored of Oblivion after playing it for 200 hours. WTF? You played the game for 200 hours!!! I'd say that's a pretty good value. Even if you never pick the game up again.

I'm not saying that it's not the developers fault if a game isn't properly balanced. I'm just saying that you got what you asked for when you played that way.

I came across a similar problem with GTA: San Andreas -- from out of the gate you could bet on the highest stake horse at the horse races, keep reloading until you won, rinse, and repeat. Did they intend for people to do this? Surely not, because it made the rest of the game boring when you then had infinite ammo, the best weaponry money could buy you, and access to everything else you could buy.

If you play cheap then you get a cheap thrill in return.

If a game isn't properly balanced it's the fault of the developer.


How can anyone deny this?
And how can people keep comparing a part of the main game to an easter egg reward for beatng the game?


Some of you keep saying it's my fault for playing that way. But it's the devs fault for making me sit there thinking about how cool it would be to do this, then making the game unappealing afterwards.

You're saying I need to take responsibility for my actions, but it's the devs that wanted me to get to that point. And had they balanced that point I wouldn't have lost interest. It's not my job as a gamer to keep interested in a game, it's the developers job to make sure there are no broken features and make sure the gamer stays interested.
Gamers don't really have any responsibility here, other than to pay for what they enjoy.
This comment was edited on Sep 14, 09:59.

nin: you used an example, which Beamer praised, about buff items being provided by the devs. Mind you we're talking about Oblivion here, not Counter-Strike. And from what I've played of Oblivion in my spare time, I don't seem to recall any particularly cheap weapons and certainly no items lying around with more than 100% Chameleon constant effect. So it's not exactly fair or even relevant to draw a comparison between oblivion and cheesier games.

It was a hypothetical question, based on the comment:

So yeah, you can't justifiably complain about a game being too easy when you make it easy for yourself.

Not unlike how your comment:

If you're allergic to watermelon (and eating it will kill you) and somebody offers you a plate of sliced watermelon, it doesn't mean that you HAVE to eat it. Whereas if you're being held captive in Guantanamo Bay and they're shoving watermelon down your throat, you don't really have a choice.

...had nothing to do with Oblivion or Counter Strike.


If Jerykk wants to believe "Something is only great if you make it that way.", he's welcome to. I, on the other hand, expect devs to provide a challenge and fix obvious loop holes. And most of them do.

And with that, I'm done.





edit: Fuck it. I'll be nice.

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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Tolyl Nor, lvl 20 E/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 16 W/Mo

http://www.richardcheese.com/ http://www.myspace.com/richardcheese
This comment was edited on Sep 14, 09:36.

I've got to agree with the fellows who say you're asking for boredom and monotony by using 130% chameleon.

Oh, and I guess item enchantment wasn't "key" to my gameplay. I played the game for >70 hours, and I never even started the mage guild quests...much less enchanted obscenely unbalanced items for myself. I've been doing what others have suggested in this thread for years...either making guidelines for myself to make the game more challenging (in stealth games, for example) or playing on the hardest difficulty from the outset to get the most challenge/stimulation out of a game. No matter what game you're playing, cheating (yes, this might as well be using a cheatcode...you're basically using a 'notarget' cheatcode) will always ruin the gaming experience and make it shortlived for you.

Edit: Oh, and I had an archer build -- primarily because my system specs wouldn't have allowed me to have done a melee character as I would have died during most intense melee battles from system lag.
This comment was edited on Sep 14, 07:04.

hmm, well, the tommy gun is a weapon available from the merchant. And purchasing and using weapons from the merchants is a key gameplay fundamental.

But the key is that while it is an aspect of gameplay, it is not necessary. You can easily beat Resident Evil 4 around 400 times+ without ever having to use it. Likewise, you can also beat Oblivion 400+ times without ever having to go out of your way to enchant several items to obtain 130% chameleon. I have a friend who beat it and never even used chameleon except for like one quest, and even then it was a temporary 80% chameleon potion to sneak past a guy.


Let's be honest here, clearly you like using Chameleon and like walking around the game like a God, otherwise you wouldn't use it. Fair enough. But it's really pointless to bash the game or its developers because of how you choose to play the game, especially since it seems contradictory to lambast the game for the one aspect that you like/take advantage of.

Ultimately you can be cheap in any games to keep off the pressure if you like, but if you choose to employ cheap tactics and then it's your fault if the experience seems shallow/hallow, nobody else's. It's all about choice, Freedom. So to attack Oblivion for its open-ended gameplay is really just attacking its Freedom, which in a post 9/11 world, simply cannot be tolerated. On the contrary, the vast majority of Oblivion players love Oblivion because of its Freedom.


Thank you very much and may God continue to Bless America.

Item enchantment is key to gameplay? How so? Yes, it's a feature, but not a mandatory one that you absolutely have to use. As I've said about a million times, if a game is too easy, stop making it so. Did you try turning up the difficulty bar? Or how about not using invisibility or Chameleon at all? Or, as I recommended before, stick to only non-enchanted items? Hell, since you went out of your way to enchant items and give yourself a constant 130 Chameleon, I'm guessing you like stealth. In that case, you'd probably find stealth more satisfying if you didn't use any spells for it, since it would actually require a modicum of skill.

Of course, to all this you will simply say "No. The game's rules are broken. It's not my fault that the game is too easy. If I'm allowed to enchant all my armor to give myself ultra stats and use unbalanced constant effect spells, I must do so. Because the developers allowed it." I simply can't understand your train of logic. If I find that something in a game is too easy, I try to remedy the situation instead of just complaining and deleting the game. You, on the other hand, continue to exploit these unbalanced elements and then are disappointed when the experience is not challenging enough. You reap what you sow.

Anyway, here's a logical look at your problem:

Problem: Oblivion is too easy.
Cause of Problem: Chameleon/Invisibility.
Objective: Make Oblivion harder.
Solution: Stop using Chameleon/Invisibility.

This comment was edited on Sep 14, 03:05.

Tommy Gun was an easter egg/reward. Item enchantment is a key to gameplay.


And, for the record, Oblivion was insanely easy. One of the easiest games on the 360. It's not just me saying this, we had three Oblivion players on the 360, only one had any difficulty (because he made an archer instead of a melee character) and even then it was only hard until he hit level 20 and had corrected his character.
For the rest of us the game was a breeze. We pretty much only died because we got lazy, never because we hit a hard area. Doesn't mean the game wasn't fun, it just wasn't hard. At all. Run into a hard spot? Cast invisibility, regain your health and go back fighting!

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Doomriders: the first new band worth a signature - http://www.deathwishinc.com/

hmm, interesting debate going on here. Are you guys for real?

Beamer: yeah, you may not be "cheating" but logic dictates that if you're being cheap and ruining the experience, it's probably not how the developers intended you on playing the game. If they had, they likely would have had several 500% Chameleon coats drop every time you killed a rat. But the fact remains: why exactly haven't you stopped using the 130%+ Chameleon itemS (emphasis) if your experience has been so tainted? Is it because without the items you'd be posting here about the game being too unbalanced/gay because it's too hard, due to the fact that you'd be getting pwned instead of running around attacking enemies while entirely hidden like a ghost?

nin: you used an example, which Beamer praised, about buff items being provided by the devs. Mind you we're talking about Oblivion here, not Counter-Strike. And from what I've played of Oblivion in my spare time, I don't seem to recall any particularly cheap weapons and certainly no items lying around with more than 100% Chameleon constant effect. So it's not exactly fair or even relevant to draw a comparison between oblivion and cheesier games.

I mean, if to get 130% chameleon, you have to put in over 50 hours dedicated Just to attaining the items, it's not as if the developers just "put it before you" to take with ease. And even then, it really does come back to self responsibility.

A Great example is Resident Evil 4. When you play through the first couple of times, it's a GREAT game, lots of suspense, lots of intense action, and just overall a great experience. However, once you've beaten it about 2-3 times and you get $1,000,000 (you only get about $500,000 per game completed), then buy the Tommy Gun that has infinite ammo, the experience is pretty much lost. Why? because instead of having to run away from these HUGE mutant mexican giants and shoot and take cover, you can simply stand in place, hold down fire for a few seconds, and beat them. Thus, no skill, whatsoever, involved.

So if you're to replay the game for the 2nd/3rd time (and really no reason to replay the game to begin with unless you're specifically going out of your way to get these uber buff items), use the tommy gun, blow through the entire game in a couple of hours, not dying once, it's not like you're playing for the gameplay or for suspense/horror/whatever. At this point you're just playing the game to mindlessly blow things away. And Yeah, if it starts to seem mindless, that's because it wasn't originally part of the game and it wasn't how the game was meant to be played. If it were meant to be played that way the first time through, they would have given you only an infinite ammo tommy gun as your primary weapon and nothing else throughout the entire game. Needless to say, it would be fairly shitty and would further be just cause for bashing the developers.

But really, if you go out of your way to play cheap, don't go around boasting about how being cheap makes you feel cheap, because it seems rather futile. Unless you're going out of your way to boast about how buff your character is. But even in that case, again, stop using Chameleon and play the game. Trust me, it won't be as easy. They scale enemies in Oblivion for a reason, friend.


Always remember, there is a Big difference between being forced to do something and having the option to do something.

If you're allergic to watermelon (and eating it will kill you) and somebody offers you a plate of sliced watermelon, it doesn't mean that you HAVE to eat it. Whereas if you're being held captive in Guantanamo Bay and they're shoving watermelon down your throat, you don't really have a choice.