Mark Rein Knocks Intel, Episodes

Epic's Mark Rein Intel is killing PC Gaming on Joystiq reflects the opinion the Epic VP expressed to the Develop Conference in Brighton that moves by Intel, in particular the promotion of integrated graphics on the motherboard, are hurting PC gaming. Epic VP: Intel is killing PC gaming! Ars Not really is an article offering an alternate opinion, which is probably not the last editorial that will be written on this topic. During his keynote address Rein also had an episode about episodic gaming, calling it "a broken business." According to the report, Rein's remarks met with some heckling from the audience, accusing him of being a "dinosaur" and "self-serving."
View : : :
86 Replies. 5 pages. Viewing page 4.
Newer [  1  2  3  4  5  ] Older
26.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 13, 2006, 00:27
26.
Re: Huh? Jul 13, 2006, 00:27
Jul 13, 2006, 00:27
 
I think people need to realise that only well established franchises could be made viable in episodic format (ala HL2) the rabid fanbase will pay through their noses for another 4 hours of gameplay with vague hints of story in something like that - even if like in episode 1 90% of the stuff in there is recycled from HL2 - What sort of FPS add-on of any kind doesn't include any new weapons??!?!?!?!?

Sin on the other hand will fail because it has no coherent story of interest whatsoever and barely anything to connect episodes which is of course why you would want to keep buying episodes one after the other.

A new IP would not work in episodic because who is going to be attached to a game enough after 4 hours to want to keep shelling out for it every 8 months or so - especially FPS where they are very very similar.

I have bought both Sin and HL:1 and I regret both of them and won't be buying any more as the 4-5 hours gameplay wasn't worth $20 to me. Sin felt better value because I subsantially felt they did more new stuff for my dollar. No repeated textures, no repeated weapons etc, and a few more fun things like the stat system etc,.. and yeh the combat is like 20 times more fun than half-life (and prey coincidently).

It's interesting about people thinking UT's are episodic, but they have a hell of a lot more design resources and play time than Sin and HL1 combined, and thus I can see the larger price, and they come out less regularly. Zelda is a stretch to call episodic - most of them have been fairly different from eachother.

I don't think Episodic gaming will progress unless the average consumer is dumber than I recognise.

When it boils down to it... I see episodic gaming as a nice meeting point for publishers between demos and full retail as they cant demo a 4hr game... (seriously who would release an episodic game demo before you can buy it for people to try??) They conveniently avoid people actually trying the product before they buy, but entice them with a cheaper price.

Again, much like steam I feel episodic gaming is a huge plus for developers/publishers that does virtually nothing positive for the gamer.

Games on steam are not cheaper than on the shelves (except on pre-release)

anyway thats for another day.

I think pc gaming is going down the gurgler now as well and the only thing that can save it is perhaps vista and moreover some clever developers wanting more than just $$$$ from the gamer.

I don't want to be a part of the bullshit in the pc gaming world anymore when I could buy a console, pay a flat fee and have a game that is full length... not very buggy and heaven forbid I can sell it when I want to get some cash back.

That saddens me but is more and more true as this year goes on.

25.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 13, 2006, 00:24
25.
Re: Huh? Jul 13, 2006, 00:24
Jul 13, 2006, 00:24
 
Lol....the pc is pretty much the original gaming platform

Ok, the mainframe is...or the ol' oscilator, really. Pong is the first console game, but that wasn't the first computer game.

Amiga, Atari, Sinclair etc etc...all 'personal computers'...

All MS is doing with Vista is trying to get a hell of a lot of people to buy their ME2.0...and they're enticing people with such musthaves as Halo2

But yeah, D3D10 is going to be a problem once some cool games go D3D10 only. I'm still warming the futile hope that more dev's will realise people don't need MS, don't like the MS tax and don't want DRM so they'll recode their games for Linux. But I think we'll have to look at the game dev's from India, Africa and parts of the far east for that push. Linux is growing there quite fast, and has been taken up by lots of businesses...which'll help spread it to the homes, making for an attractive install base for the devs.

So get used to gaming in Hindi or Korean for your linux gaming

24.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 13, 2006, 00:18
24.
Re: Huh? Jul 13, 2006, 00:18
Jul 13, 2006, 00:18
 
You underestimate the significance of onslaught mode. It is radically different from anything in UT2003, and the fact that it was and still is by far the most popular of UT2004's modes played online demonstrates that. It's no mere team deathmatch addition to deathmatch or even something like instagib.

Onslaught is pretty badass.


Episodic games are all about reusing game content to deliver a shorter game experience for a lower price. Game developers like it because it allows them to have more products to sell to the consumer over the same period of time than if they were developing a traditional full length title. What Marc is saying is that because these episodic titles are competing against full length games for the consumer's attention, they don't stand a chance. At the episodic games' current price point I agree with him because the consumer can find plenty of full length games selling at the same or lower ptices than the episodic ones.

I'm not sure I agree with the reusing game content comment, but we'll have to see how different it is when HL2:EP2 and Sin episodes 2 come out. HL2:EP2 is supposed to be pretty different from HL2 and HL2:EP1 (since EP1 is pretty similar to Half Life 2). Sin episodes, we'll see. Then again, Sin episodes had the tagline "and everything... EXPLODES!" so what can you expect there.

23.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 13, 2006, 00:12
23.
Re: Huh? Jul 13, 2006, 00:12
Jul 13, 2006, 00:12
 
He also says that most people won't want to wait 6 months between 6 hour episodes. I'll agree with him that it's a little long for episodes that are a little short. I don't agree with him that gamers are unwilling to wait for any amount of time between episodes and won't go back to play the next episodes, but that's difference of opinion I guess.
I think Marc is right that players won't go back to a game many months down the road if it is essentially the same experience with reused content as the previous one. There are plenty of games in the market competing for the player's attention. If given the choice between something with new content and something with substantially reused content, the consumer will most likely choose the new content unless the episodic game has a really compelling story which he must continue to follow. For all but the most ardent fan, the episodic game will not be compelling.

Assault was in original UT.
But it wasn't in UT2003 which was my point. UT2004 is substantially expanded from UT2003.

i don't include the bonus packs
I include them because they are official content and some of them are even on the second retail release of the game.

extra game modes
You underestimate the significance of onslaught mode. It is radically different from anything in UT2003, and the fact that it was and still is by far the most popular of UT2004's modes played online demonstrates that. It's no mere team deathmatch addition to deathmatch or even something like instagib.

It reuses the engine and tries to come out with more smaller games than if they did full on sequels, which require substantial time and investment due to the fast-changing graphics in the genre.
Episodic games are all about reusing game content to deliver a shorter game experience for a lower price. Game developers like it because it allows them to have more products to sell to the consumer over the same period of time than if they were developing a traditional full length title. What Marc is saying is that because these episodic titles are competing against full length games for the consumer's attention, they don't stand a chance. At the episodic games' current price point I agree with him because the consumer can find plenty of full length games selling at the same or lower prices than the episodic ones.

This comment was edited on Jul 13, 08:05.
22.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 13, 2006, 00:06
22.
Re: Huh? Jul 13, 2006, 00:06
Jul 13, 2006, 00:06
 
Not to mention that with Vista, Microsoft is going to be doing a big marketing push to try to get people more used to the idea the PC as a gaming platform.

21.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:52
21.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:52
Jul 12, 2006, 23:52
 
it's the idiot developers that don't support the largest install base (aka Intel integrated graphics). DX 7 or 8 graphics level is plenty of eye candy for folks with shitty rigs.
Amen. If PC gaming is going to thrive, the market needs more games which run on more machines. I like eye candy in games as much as most players, but I would rather that more games were created to run well on the hardware I already have than for them to be developed primarily for the next advancement in graphics. As a game platform, a PC should have a lifespan at least as long as that of a game console without needing a major hardware upgrade.

Another thing that will help kill PC gaming is Microsoft and Vista Windows ME 2.0.
Actually Vista will likely boost PC gaming in terms of both game development and sales because Vista's Aero interface will force the low-end PC's sold at retail to finally have video which supports at least shader model 2.0. That will significantly raise the minimum bar and provide a base of more PC's which can run games that require shader support.


20.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:50
20.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:50
Jul 12, 2006, 23:50
 
Episodic games reuse all or most of the content from the previous release

Half-Life 2:ep2 looks to have a lot of different and new assets from the last, but I get where you are going. I would say that Episodic as a definition would be closer to "smaller chunks of a continous game made to allow earlier release for a lower price point with money from early episodes helping fund the game for a more immediate return of investment."

Seasonal and episodic as a view of games like EA sport's line are pretty close. I wouldn't really consider UT2k# to be episodic, although it recycles playmodes and map designs (although not the maps themselves which are remade for each iteration, except from 2k3->2k4).

He just mentions that marketing is a problem because the low wholesale price of episodic games doesn't entice retailers to market them.

He also says that most people won't want to wait 6 months between 6 hour episodes. I'll agree with him that it's a little long for episodes that are a little short. I don't agree with him that gamers are unwilling to wait for any amount of time between episodes and won't go back to play the next episodes, but that's difference of opinion I guess.

What the hell game are you talking about? Surely not UT2004 because not only is it not that similar to the original UT, it has substantially more content (including its official bonus packs) than UT2003. It is not just a few maps that were added, and onslaught and assault modes are major additions especially onslaught mode which adds driveable and flyable vehicles to the game.

Assault was in original UT. I wouldn't consider it new, although the maps are new, obviously. It's exclusion from ut2k3 is why i never got into 2k3.

Yes, UT2k4 has substantially more content than 2k3, and no, i don't include the bonus packs (although it's one thing Epic does right). It still is more of UT2k3 + extra game modes + extra maps with some graphics touchups. Unless I'm remembering wrong. I don't own 2k3. I do own 2k4.

NO! What Episodic content does is reuse the same god damn content NOT just reuse concepts. Hell most games from various developers in the same genre reuse concepts. That doesn't make the games "episodic content."

It reuses the engine and tries to come out with more smaller games than if they did full on sequels, which require substantial time and investment due to the fast-changing graphics in the genre.

19.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:43
19.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:43
Jul 12, 2006, 23:43
 
I hate each and every one of you for making Riley mostly make sense.

Mostly.

-------------
Doomriders: the first new band worth a signature - http://www.deathwishinc.com/
18.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:30
18.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:30
Jul 12, 2006, 23:30
 
Seasonal and episodic are just two different ways to describe the same thing. What's the difference to a game that is shorter and sells for a lower price with episodes coming out every 6 months and a full game that has 12 hours of content with a sequel coming out that features new levels with the same characters a year later?
This is not just a semantics argument. The difference is the game's content. Episodic games reuse all or most of the content from the previous release. Sequels do not. If UT2007 were nothing more than UT2004's content with some additional maps, then yes it would be an episodic game like HL2:EP1 is to Half Life 2.

In the end, Rein bitches about episodic failing because of "lack of marketing". Ok.
Actually he mentions a number of reasons, and marketing isn't the main problem. He just mentions that marketing is a problem because the low wholesale price of episodic games doesn't entice retailers to market them.

Each new revision has the old maps plus a few new ones and a new game mode. You play one until the next one then you switch over. How is that not episodic?
What the hell game are you talking about? Surely not UT2004 because not only is it not that similar to the original UT, it has substantially more content (including its official bonus packs) than UT2003. It is not just a few maps that were added, and onslaught and assault modes are major additions to UT2004 versus UT2003 especially onslaught mode which adds driveable and flyable vehicles to the game. It's certainly no mere HL2:EP1.

It's a product that has been developed and uses similar concepts in it's next iteration in order to save time and money. That's exactly what the new "episodic content" format is trying to do.
NO! What these new episodic games do is reuse the same god damn content NOT just reuse concepts. Hell most games from various developers in the same genre reuse concepts. That doesn't make the games episodic content.

This comment was edited on Jul 13, 11:51.
17.
 
Confusion
Jul 12, 2006, 23:26
Kxmode
 
17.
Confusion Jul 12, 2006, 23:26
Jul 12, 2006, 23:26
 Kxmode
 
Full game = 'nuff said

Seasonal = All sports games, UT2X... full games that have consistent annual/bi-annual release dates. Seasonal games usually recycle the core engine with updates to data, stats, graphics, and in some cases controls, and UI.

Sequels = HL/HL2, HALO/HALO2/HALO3... continues the story. New or used engine is irrelevant.

Episodic = HL2:E1, SIN: E1... a form of sequel whose story arc is told in small snippets.

Expansion = EQ: Prophecy of Ro, AO: Shadowlands WOW: Burning Crusade... major additions to existing games. Generically expansions contain small story additions but usually are limited to lots of extras.


Equating this to television and film...

Full game = Star Trek: TNG (whole series)
Seasonal = ST: TNG, season 4 (whole season)
Episodic = ST: TNG, season 4, episode 175 (Best Both Worlds 2)
Sequels = Star Trek: Wrath of KKKAAAHHHNNN! (different than ST: Motion Picture, thank god!)
Expansions = Star Trek Online (not even a show or film... something different that will add to the Trek franchise)


-----
latest track: http://www.kxmode.com/media/music/kxmode_-_asylum_-_05-10-2006.mp3
more free music: http://music.download.com/kxmode


This comment was edited on Jul 12, 23:41.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
Avatar 18786
16.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:23
16.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:23
Jul 12, 2006, 23:23
 
Well... I disagree that Intel is killing PC Gaming... if anything... it's the idiot developers that don't support the largest install base (aka Intel integrated graphics). DX 7 or 8 graphics level is plenty of eye candy for folks with shitty rigs.

There's a ton of pc illiterate folks that buy games at Wal-Mart or Costco... and what are they buying??? The Sims and other $10 crap casino games that will run on their shitty rigs... and they refuse to buy something that will cost them a ton of money, or force them into constant upgrades.

Another thing that will help kill PC gaming is Microsoft and Vista Windows ME 2.0. Once games go "DX10 only"... I won't be buying any new PC games, because I'll never load that bloated piece of shit on any of my machines (Even newly built rigs). Years of constantly upgrading just to play a fucking game at good FPS has taken it's toll on me... and I'm not going to spend another dime on uneccessary upgrades for fucking gaming, when I can do 90% of the shit windows does, in Linux (Without BS intrusions from MS)... and boot Windows XP when I want to play one of my many games from a very large collection. (And probably better games than most of the 'shit games' that will get released in the future)

Once someone invents a mouse and programmable keyboard that works with every game, on a console... I'll switch to console gaming.

/shrug

Get your games from GOG DAMMIT!
Avatar 19499
15.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:20
15.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:20
Jul 12, 2006, 23:20
 
I posted a lot in both those joystiq threads while bored at work.


He's pretty right about episodic content.
He's really, really, really wrong about Intel and integrated graphics.

-------------
Doomriders: the first new band worth a signature - http://www.deathwishinc.com/
14.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:02
14.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:02
Jul 12, 2006, 23:02
 
sequels aren't episodic content just because he said we already have an episodic content 'model' through sequels.

13.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 23:01
Kxmode
 
13.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 23:01
Jul 12, 2006, 23:01
 Kxmode
 
If UT is episodic content then every sports game must be an episode, and every medal of honor, and hl2 itself, and sin episodes, and call of duty, and doom 2 and doom 3. What a bunch of bullshit. UT200X, is in no way episodic content.

Full games that come out annually or bi-annually are "seasonal" games. Sports title are mostly seasonals. UT can also qualify as a seasonal. Heck you could consider Harry Potter a seasonal movie.

-----
latest track: http://www.kxmode.com/media/music/kxmode_-_asylum_-_05-10-2006.mp3
more free music: http://music.download.com/kxmode
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
Avatar 18786
12.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 22:59
12.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 22:59
Jul 12, 2006, 22:59
 
Seasonal and episodic are just two different ways to describe the same thing. What's the difference to a game that is shorter and sells for a lower price with episodes coming out every 6 months and a full game that has 12 hours of content with a sequel coming out that features new levels with the same characters a year later?

In the end, Rein bitches about episodic failing because of "lack of marketing". Ok.

Here's an example: It's to the point now that in the newer online FPSes, only official maps get played. Each new revision has the old maps plus a few new ones and a new game mode. You play one until the next one then you switch over. How is that not episodic? It's a product that has been developed and uses similar concepts in it's next iteration in order to save time and money. That's exactly what the new "episodic content" format is trying to do. Whether you think it is worth it, don't like it, or don't like the amount you get for it doesn't change the fact that it's pretty much the same fucking thing. Mark Rein even admitted that.


Whatever though. We can argue semantics all day. And no, it's not "exactly" the same (although UT2k4 was not the leap that UT2k3 was over UT, and was probably as close to episodic as it's going to get).


This comment was edited on Jul 12, 23:05.
11.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 22:52
nin
 
11.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 22:52
Jul 12, 2006, 22:52
 nin
 
If UT is episodic content then every sports game must be an episode, and every medal of honor, and hl2 itself, and sin episodes, and call of duty, and doom 2 and doom 3.


Which is exactly what Rein said:
Rein acknowledged that the game industry already has an episodic model through game sequels, such as Madden, Zelda and Final Fantasy. He said these work because they are full-price and backed by marketing.





--------------------------------------------------------------
GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Tolyl Nor, lvl 20 E/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 16 W/Mo

http://www.muse.mu/
10.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 22:49
10.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 22:49
Jul 12, 2006, 22:49
 
If UT is episodic content then every sports game must be an episode, and every medal of honor, and hl2 itself, and sin episodes, and call of duty, and doom 2 and doom 3. What a bunch of bullshit. UT200X, is in no way episodic content.

9.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 22:43
Kxmode
 
9.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 22:43
Jul 12, 2006, 22:43
 Kxmode
 
Funny that a company who's main product is UT2k3/UT2k4/UT2k7 is knocking episodic content...

It's not episodic or expansion content if it sells for $50. The examples you cite are "seasonal" games. These are full games that are normally released every year (in UTs case every two years). While not as frequent in the FPS genre this generally happens every year for major sports franchise titles.


-----
latest track: http://www.kxmode.com/media/music/kxmode_-_asylum_-_05-10-2006.mp3
more free music: http://music.download.com/kxmode


This comment was edited on Jul 12, 22:48.
"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
Avatar 18786
8.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 22:20
8.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 22:20
Jul 12, 2006, 22:20
 
And what is UT2k#? It's the same game with better graphics than the last one and one more game mode. Pot. Kettle.
LOL! If it is "better graphics," then it's not recycled content now is it? If UT2007 contained nothing more than the identical art and media assets of UT2004, then yes Marc's statement would be hypocritical. As for the gameplay, UT2004 was certainly different in many aspects from UT and UT2003 much to the chagrin of many players, and I bet that UT2007 will be significantly different in a number of ways from UT2004.

And UT2k3/UT2k4/UT2k7 isn't episodic and anyone who thinks so is an imbecile? That's funny, because Mark Rein thinks it is.

Rein acknowledged that the game industry already has an episodic model through game sequels, such as Madden, Zelda and Final Fantasy. He said these work because they are full-price and backed by marketing.
You need to learn how to read. Game sequels are NOT "episodic content" even though the subject matter of the game may be episodic or derivative. UT2007 will certainly NOT be episodic content of UT2004 in the way that HL2:EP1 is of Half Life 2.

This comment was edited on Jul 12, 22:37.
7.
 
Re: Huh?
Jul 12, 2006, 22:14
7.
Re: Huh? Jul 12, 2006, 22:14
Jul 12, 2006, 22:14
 
Riley said that I'm an imbecile. OH NO

Look, Rein is complaining that episodic content will be "inevitably be using a lot of recycled content, walking through the same environments and shooting the same enemies with the same weapons.”

And what is UT2k#? It's the same game with better graphics than the last one and one more game mode. Pot. Kettle.

And UT2k3/UT2k4/UT2k7 isn't episodic and anyone who thinks so is an imbecile? That's funny, because Mark Rein thinks it is.

Rein acknowledged that the game industry already has an episodic model through game sequels, such as Madden, Zelda and Final Fantasy. He said these work because they are full-price and backed by marketing.




edit: I'll probably buy ut2k7 so don't accuse me of being a valve fanboy.
This comment was edited on Jul 12, 22:15.
86 Replies. 5 pages. Viewing page 4.
Newer [  1  2  3  4  5  ] Older