No StarForce in HoMM5

The official "I'm happy no sf post" on the Ubisoft Forums (thanks Tiscali Games) has word from Heroes of Might and Magic V producer Fabrice Cambournet (A.K.A. MuadDib) that StarForce copy protection will not be used in the upcoming fantasy-themed strategy sequel.
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123.
 
Re: ...
Apr 18, 2006, 06:28
Re: ... Apr 18, 2006, 06:28
Apr 18, 2006, 06:28
 
In general, they aren't bad for dialup users because dialup users don't tend to be constantly connected. It is much easier for them to simply disconnect when trying to play, and then not needing to worry about updating.
What you are forgetting though is that playing offline is NOT an option for users (including those on dial-up) who don't save their Steam login credentials on their PC. That is exactly why I mentioned it below regarding dial-up users and forced updates. Saving that login information is a stupid idea from a security standpoint especially for users who have purchased anything via Steam, and Valve should remove that requirement to play offline.

This comment was edited on Apr 18, 06:30.
122.
 
Re: ...
Apr 18, 2006, 06:24
Re: ... Apr 18, 2006, 06:24
Apr 18, 2006, 06:24
 


121.
 
...
Apr 18, 2006, 00:46
... Apr 18, 2006, 00:46
Apr 18, 2006, 00:46
 
Personally, I find there are often reasons that I don't want to apply a patch to a game immediately when it comes out. Being denied that option (without going through annoyances to prevent it) strikes me as a step in the wrong direction.

I can understand that, particularly when patches can bork parts of a game that were functioning fine beforehand, though that is pretty rare. Perhaps a better system would be to make updates optional for all but more serious issues.

But as you seem to agree with that, at least in some mild degree, it would appear we aren't actually disgreeing much anyway (in fact, the original disagreement was mainly over the suitability of your example).

Yeah.

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120.
 
Re: ...
Apr 17, 2006, 13:10
Re: ... Apr 17, 2006, 13:10
Apr 17, 2006, 13:10
 
That was based on a quote of yours from earlier, which I took to be the "anti-Valve shit" I mentioned:

Right, but as I said, you read into that a lot more than was actually there.

I suppose my main point is that whilst great for multiplayer games, forced updates for singleplayer games are not necessary (besides initial activation) but aren't that bad, even for dialup users (though certainly not pleasant or enjoyable).

In general, they aren't bad for dialup users because dialup users don't tend to be constantly connected. It is much easier for them to simply disconnect when trying to play, and then not needing to worry about updating.

Really, however, I wouldn't say that dialup users tend to be inconvenienced by the forced updates more than high-speed users are. Personally, I find there are often reasons that I don't want to apply a patch to a game immediately when it comes out. Being denied that option (without going through annoyances to prevent it) strikes me as a step in the wrong direction.

But as you seem to agree with that, at least in some mild degree, it would appear we aren't actually disgreeing much anyway (in fact, the original disagreement was mainly over the suitability of your example).

119.
 
...
Apr 17, 2006, 12:39
... Apr 17, 2006, 12:39
Apr 17, 2006, 12:39
 
What general anti-Valve shit? Please, by all means, point it out. Actual stuff that is, not stuff in your head.

That was based on a quote of yours from earlier, which I took to be the "anti-Valve shit" I mentioned:

I see you're no longer talking about Valve... Unless you're making one hell of a stretch.

...

That's your "choice"? For a choice to be viable, it has to be reasonable.

Being reasonable has nothing to do with it being a "choice" - I never claimed they were, just that they were options. I don't want to continue this area of discussion as it's not getting anywhere and I accept it wasn't the best point in the first place.

...

There are plenty including some on this forum who do claim that.

I know that. I'm not a Valve suck up - I hate their lies about the original HL2 release date, the delays (for HDR, VAC, player models, the missing maps from CS, Episode 1, Lost Coast,) the time it's taking them to add HDR to all maps, how long it took to first activate HL2, how short it was, how poor the AI was, etc.

My opinion is that the forced updates aren't really a problem. They are a fraction of the size of the updates released for CS:S, an online game. However, like I stated earlier, for singleplayer games they are unnecessary and "a bit shit".

I don't know how we got worked up into this. I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be unreasonable... I can be a bit stubborn at times. I wasn't trying to annoy other people. I suppose my main point is that whilst great for multiplayer games, forced updates for singleplayer games are not necessary (besides initial activation) but aren't that bad, even for dialup users (though certainly not pleasant or enjoyable).

PS - @Riley Pizt: I know we often have our disagreements but your points have been a lot better recently and are less confrontational. It's actually interesting to read what you have to say now.

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Emotinomicon: Emoticons of the Dead
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118.
 
Re: ...
Apr 17, 2006, 11:57
Re: ... Apr 17, 2006, 11:57
Apr 17, 2006, 11:57
 
And there we have it... confirmation that dialup is just being used as an excuse for anti-Valve trolls to have a go at them.

WTF are you smoking? My point was that I don't agree that Valve is "trying to push the boundary with new concepts that do actually benefit the majority." I mean, forced game updates? Yeah, that's such a novel concept.

If you want to go nit-picking then satellite is always an option, it's just costly, so they do have a choice, or they could even move to an area with broadband - so people DO have a choice.

Well, I certainly don't want to nit-pick, but apparently you do. Moving? That's your "choice"? For a choice to be viable, it has to be reasonable. Your examples are far from reasonable.

Stop using dialup as an excuse to attack Valve.

Yeah, I'll stop... Right after I start. Dear god, you're so defensive over this, you're inventing attacks that don't even exist.

Your point that for singleplayer games Steam forced updates are a pain-in-the-ass is perfectly valid but then you combine it with general anti-Valve shit.

What general anti-Valve shit? Please, by all means, point it out. Actual stuff that is, not stuff in your head.

Why do you have to be so opposed to them? You act like Valve has offended you personally.

Dude. Take your meds. Skipping them has seriously hampered your ability to have a rational debate.

This comment was edited on Apr 17, 11:58.
117.
 
Re: ...
Apr 17, 2006, 09:23
Re: ... Apr 17, 2006, 09:23
Apr 17, 2006, 09:23
 
Just to make it clear Steam is far from perfect, no-one is trying to imply that.
There are plenty including some on this forum who do claim that.


116.
 
Re: ...
Apr 17, 2006, 09:21
Re: ... Apr 17, 2006, 09:21
Apr 17, 2006, 09:21
 
The people on dialup should be complaining to their service providers about it, not at game developers trying to push the boundary with new concepts that do actually benefit the majority.
Forced automatic updates does NOT benefit the majority at least not always. Steam is not always "available" even though the user may have plenty of bandwidth to download updates. The bottom line is that updates should not be forced upon the customer if he does not want them, and there are plenty of situations such as dial-up Internet users which illustrate just how bad forced updates are.

This comment was edited on Apr 17, 09:24.
115.
 
Re: ...
Apr 17, 2006, 09:18
Re: ... Apr 17, 2006, 09:18
Apr 17, 2006, 09:18
 
The advantage of the forced update system for online play is that users don't have to trawl around the net looking for half a dozen patch that must be installed in a particular order
For the overwhleming majority of games, the manual update process is NOT nearly that complicated. You simply download one file from one of dozens or hundreds of available sites, and then install it. For those who need something simpler, it would be much better to do as some games do and offer optional automatic updates. Valve could and should do that as well.

However, if you want to play a game like CS:S...
I am talking about single-player games on Steam. Steam does not make exception for such a scenario, and it should. It would cost nothing extra to implement that, but Valve doesn't want to concede that control and flexibility to its customers.

This comment was edited on Apr 17, 09:26.
114.
 
...
Apr 16, 2006, 22:04
... Apr 16, 2006, 22:04
Apr 16, 2006, 22:04
 
I see you're no longer talking about Valve... Unless you're making one hell of a stretch.

And there we have it... confirmation that dialup is just being used as an excuse for anti-Valve trolls to have a go at them.

How can it be valid if one group of people have a choice and another doesn't?

If you want to go nit-picking then satellite is always an option, it's just costly, so they do have a choice, or they could even move to an area with broadband - so people DO have a choice. The comparison was meant to illustrate a small minority affecting the service offered to the majority, and as such it is valid. Also, the ability to upgrade isn't a factor in the comparison because people on dialup can still download the updates via-Steam, just not as fast. Stop using dialup as an excuse to attack Valve.

Just to make it clear Steam is far from perfect, no-one is trying to imply that. Your point that for singleplayer games Steam forced updates are a pain-in-the-ass is perfectly valid but then you combine it with general anti-Valve shit. Why do you have to be so opposed to them? You act like Valve has offended you personally.

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113.
 
Re: ...
Apr 16, 2006, 18:57
Re: ... Apr 16, 2006, 18:57
Apr 16, 2006, 18:57
 
How can it be valid if one group of people have a choice and another doesn't? There's no reason not to switch to using DVDs, because you aren't leaving anyone behind. Yes, some people may not currently have DVD drives, but they are all capable of getting them.

All people are not capable of getting high speed. Complaining to their ISP isn't going to do anything. There are many rural areas who don't have an ISP that offers high speed. Nor is it currently economically viable for them to do so. So people in that position are screwed.

game developers trying to push the boundary with new concepts that do actually benefit the majority.

I see you're no longer talking about Valve... Unless you're making one hell of a stretch.

112.
 
...
Apr 16, 2006, 18:47
... Apr 16, 2006, 18:47
Apr 16, 2006, 18:47
 
I don't think that's a very good comparison. I don't think that people are in a circumstance where they aren't able to get a dvd-rom. They might choose not to, but that's their choice. There are, however, large segments that just can't get high speed.

I think it's valid... the people with dialup are like the people that only have a CD drive, holding back the rest of the community / industry. Don't get me wrong, I know that most of the people on dialup do not have a choice in the matter. More investment needs to be made in that area but because there is little profit to be made it's right on the back-burner. The people on dialup should be complaining to their service providers about it, not at game developers trying to push the boundary with new concepts that do actually benefit the majority.

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Emotinomicon: Emoticons of the Dead
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111.
 
Re: ...
Apr 16, 2006, 12:26
Re: ... Apr 16, 2006, 12:26
Apr 16, 2006, 12:26
 
The advantage of the forced update system for online play

I don't think anyone is complaining about forced updates for online play. They make sense. Forced updates whether you are doing online play or not, however, are not so good. Just because a system uses online authentication doesn't mean it should force an update on me for a single player game.

It's like the whole situation with CD/DVD games

I don't think that's a very good comparison. I don't think that people are in a circumstance where they aren't able to get a dvd-rom. They might choose not to, but that's their choice. There are, however, large segments that just can't get high speed.

110.
 
...
Apr 16, 2006, 11:45
... Apr 16, 2006, 11:45
Apr 16, 2006, 11:45
 
I have known several people with dial-up Internet who had to wait hours before they could play due to those damned forced updates. I put a considerable amount of time looking into a way to disable them when I was testing out Steam, and if there were a way to do it without hacking Steam, I would have found it. Steam forces updates even upon dedicated servers. If Steam detects a server is out of date, it delists it and sends a message to tell the admin to restart it where it will automatically update when restarted.

Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of the forced update system for online play is that users don't have to trawl around the net looking for half a dozen patch that must be installed in a particular order; all users are up-to-date meaning that any bugs they would have experienced on older versions are not present; new features can be sent to users automatically, like HDR, etc; it also keeps the userbase united, rather than having thousands of people running different versions of the game - that means there are more people to play against and any server running has to be running the latest version.

Downloading hundreds of megabytes on dialup is going to be painful, there is no way around that. However, if you want to play a game like CS:S then you are expected to download the updates and have a better connection anyway. If you only want to play HL2, however, then the Steam system is mostly a hindrance and a bit shit... activating takes quite a while and updates are forced upon you. For people on broadband it doesn't take long and the patches fix bugs and improve performance, so it's quite painless - most gamers are on broadband (look at the Valve survey) and the game uses the system instead of a CD-check, improving the gaming experience.

The reality is that people should have moved on from dialup already... I know not everyone has access to broadband but penetration has increase dramatically and it is only a minority that can't (here in the UK at least). It's like the whole situation with CD/DVD games... a tiny minority are still using CD drives and games makers inconenience the majority with multiple-CD games rather than lose a few sales - it was worse in the US, as Europe has been on DVD releases for years, with retailers refusing to stock the CD versions.

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Emotinomicon: Emoticons of the Dead
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109.
 
Re: ...
Apr 14, 2006, 17:13
Re: ... Apr 14, 2006, 17:13
Apr 14, 2006, 17:13
 
They are as described. I'm definitely not a regular Steam user, but you might still be right about HL2 being up to date already -- the last time I fired up Steam was the day Lost Coast was released, and May 23 sounds about right.
Actually Lost Coast came out on November 2nd of last year, so you were already well up to date. That is exactly why you were able to run the game without updating even though you were online. I have known several people with dial-up Internet who had to wait hours before they could play due to those damned forced updates. I put a considerable amount of time looking into a way to disable them when I was testing out Steam, and if there were a way to do it without hacking Steam, I would have found it. Steam forces updates even upon dedicated servers. If Steam detects a server is out of date, it delists it and sends a message to tell the admin to restart it where it will automatically update when restarted.

Yeah, there are two FireWire ports on my motherboard that show up under Network Connections. They've never connected to anything for the purpose of networking, however, so I didn't see any reason to disable them.
That's why you didn't get the error. Steam requires network and Winsock functionality to work at all. Its so-called "offline mode" is a real misnomer.

also-- sorry for calling you an asshole. Just didn't like that thick head comment.
I apologize for the thick head comment, but I was so tired of someone always responding with "uncheck the automatic updates setting" when that does not fix the problem.


This comment was edited on Apr 14, 17:25.
108.
 
Re: ...
Apr 14, 2006, 13:10
Re: ... Apr 14, 2006, 13:10
Apr 14, 2006, 13:10
 
I seriously doubt your results are as you described since Half-Life 2 has not been updated since May 23, 2005 ( see http://www.steampowered.com/platform/update_history/Half-Life%202.html ) so surely if you are a regular Steam user you were already up to date for that game.

They are as described. I'm definitely not a regular Steam user, but you might still be right about HL2 being up to date already -- the last time I fired up Steam was the day Lost Coast was released, and May 23 sounds about right.

Still says there are updates available though, plain as can be..

*shrug*

You must have at least one other network connection available on that PC because if you don't, you will get the Winsock error. Every time I disabled the network connection and launched Steam I got that error. I had to pull the network cable or turn off the router on PC's with wireless connections to get offline mode to run.

Yeah, there are two FireWire ports on my motherboard that show up under Network Connections. They've never connected to anything for the purpose of networking, however, so I didn't see any reason to disable them.



EDIT: also-- sorry for calling you an asshole. Just didn't like that thick head comment.
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It may be that one day a young man will adore a Pinata.
This comment was edited on Apr 14, 13:15.
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I'm not even angry. I'm being so sincere right now, even though you broke my heart and killed me.
107.
 
Re: ...
Apr 14, 2006, 10:32
Re: ... Apr 14, 2006, 10:32
Apr 14, 2006, 10:32
 
What happens if you redirect the valve servers to 127.0.0.1? Would it barf, or would it try to contact them, not be able to, and meekly offer up single player?
You can block Steam using firewall rules (it takes more than just blocking a single domain name), but offline mode will only work if you have stored your Steam login credentials.


106.
 
Re: ...
Apr 14, 2006, 10:26
Re: ... Apr 14, 2006, 10:26
Apr 14, 2006, 10:26
 
MeatForce, are you able to tell steam not to contact valve servers at all, even if you are still online?
No you cannot.

If authentication became a preferred method (I have one game that works that way - Mount & Blade), I would want it to be like, "here's your authentication, now go away and NEVER bother me again unless I choose to" - and then contact is controlled by me from that point forward. Completely shut off if I choose. Can steam do that without being hacked?
No.



105.
 
Re: ...
Apr 14, 2006, 10:25
Re: ... Apr 14, 2006, 10:25
Apr 14, 2006, 10:25
 
I'm sitting here looking at Steam - in online mode - telling me that HL2 STILL has an update available.

This is AFTER I launched the game and played through the opening few minutes.
Every Steam game I tested including Half-Life 2 always checked its GCF files and updated them before running the game if Steam was in online mode regardless of that automatic updates setting. That setting only affects the updates which Steam will do in the background when idle. That is how Valve forces all online clients and servers to only run the latest versions of its games. I seriously doubt your results are as you described since Half-Life 2 has not been updated since May 23, 2005 ( see http://www.steampowered.com/platform/update_history/Half-Life%202.html ) so surely if you are a regular Steam user you were already up to date for that game.

went into Network Connections and disabled my internet connection by right clicking on it and selecting "Disable". Then I fired up Steam.

Did I get a Winsock error? Nope.
You must have at least one other network connection available on that PC because if you don't, you will get the Winsock error. Every time I disabled the network connection and launched Steam I got that error. I had to pull the network cable or turn off the router on PC's with wireless connections to get offline mode to run.

This comment was edited on Apr 14, 10:40.
104.
 
Re: ...
Apr 13, 2006, 21:52
Re: ... Apr 13, 2006, 21:52
Apr 13, 2006, 21:52
 
The birth of steam reform! Wow, could it be this simple?

Add a line to your hosts file (found at \WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc in winXP) like,

127.0.0.1 steam.valve.com (or whatever steam tries to connect to)

That works for ads... could it work for HL2?

Boycott Starforce - http://www.glop.org/starforce/
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