Absolutely. Although I don't count user made levels, because what the fanbase does with it isn't a reflection of the company that made the game (assuming they both provided roughly the same level of tools). How can you suggest that Warcraft 3 wasn't better in that respect?

However, I don't know why you brought playing time into it. What does playing time have to do with additional game content?

Because the time that needs to be invested into a War3 level is minimal compared to the time needed to design a level in 3D for Q4. Blizzard have released MORE than id or Raven in Q3 or Q4, but I'm not going to neccecarily commend them on that because you can't compare the two.

[edit] Sorry for the double posts folks-- I'm writing a report in between messages, and by the time I hit post, 5 more posts have popped up and one is usually directed at me
This comment was edited on Apr 7, 12:39.

So, you feel that releasing a game that mentions and includes a door to a place that you can't even get to (the Orrery), and then makes people who want to GET to that area pay $2 is fair?

Is that place required for the game to be beaten? Does that place pop up a shareware message PLEASE BUY THE ADDON TO ACCESS THIS AREA? Was the game shipped incomplete, or below expectations?

The answer to all three of those questions is "no" and I think most people would agree with me, although they still might not like the idea of selling the addons.

Please. How about this - in TES5, you'll only be able to get Fur, Leather, and Steel armor sets. If you want any other armor set, you have to pay three bucks for each one. Would you support that?

I don't support silly hyperbole and conjecture in order to try and prove a point. Your argument there is absolutely meaningless, as I could turn right around and say "you don't support 30 hours of gameplay for $5?" based on some non-existant addon.

After seeing the success of the horse armor mod, I wouldn't be surprised if they're asking themselves, "why did we just kill ourselves adding all that content if we could have broken it all up and made $200 on average per copy selling it piece meal?". Now that the bean counters have this market data, Elder Scrolls V can be a basic environment with a few weapons. The rest can be purchased separately, now that they know you'll buy it. I suppose it won't be much different than a MMOPRG, except now there will be a monthly revenue stream for single player RPG games.

This comment was edited on Apr 7, 12:35.

I'm claiming that Bethesda don't benefit when releasing free content for Oblivion, being as it's a single player game that has already been a massive success, and requires a lot of work in order to develop for.

Well, I don't agree, but as it's a matter of pure opinion, guess we'll have to just disagree. Although just from the anecdotal evidence in this thread, we have at least 2 people saying they won't be getting the game after seeing Bethesda selling horse armour for $2. Whether or not there are enough people who will decide that to offset the cost of making the armour, I couldn't say.

And I AM suggesting that the cost of extra content should be based on the genre. How come we don't have FPSes that can take 40-50 hours to beat. War3 had more maps on launch & more free levels & user made levels than Quake4 does, does that make War3 better in that respect?

Absolutely. Although I don't count user made levels, because what the fanbase does with it isn't a reflection of the company that made the game (assuming they both provided roughly the same level of tools). How can you suggest that Warcraft 3 wasn't better in that respect?

However, I don't know why you brought playing time into it. What does playing time have to do with additional game content?

Bethesda releases a game with more content than any 5 other games, plus the editor, and people bitch about them selling mods for 2 bucks a pop?

So, you feel that releasing a game that mentions and includes a door to a place that you can't even get to (the Orrery), and then makes people who want to GET to that area pay $2 is fair?

Please. How about this - in TES5, you'll only be able to get Fur, Leather, and Steel armor sets. If you want any other armor set, you have to pay three bucks for each one. Would you support that?

This comment was edited on Apr 7, 12:32.

Epic benefit when releasing free content for UT2k4.

StarDock benefit when releasing free content for GalCiv2.

I'm claiming that Bethesda don't benefit when releasing free content for Oblivion, being as it's a single player game that has already been a massive success, and requires a lot of work in order to develop for.

And I AM suggesting that the cost of extra content should be based on the genre. How come we don't have FPSes that can take 40-50 hours to beat. War3 had more maps on launch & more free levels & user made levels than Quake4 does, does that make War3 better in that respect?

Re-posted from the other Oblivion thread...

An overheard conversation at Bethesda a few months prior to the game's release...

Bethesda Executive: So, update me. How’s Oblivion coming?
Oblivion Lead Designer: So far, so good. Unfortunately, though, we’re over budget.
Executive: Over budget? Well, we’re gonna have to see about cutting some corners then.
Designer: I agree. We pretty much got everything in, though. Graphics, most of the quests, housing, horses, the towns, horse armor, guilds, the works. We’re just finishing up now.
Executive: Great! Anything else?
Designer: Yeah, we just brought in our PC Optimization Team. Right now we’re still using the UI of the X-box version, along with some really bad LOD textures we had to throw in there that we actually got from Quake 1. But don’t worry, the team is going to fix all of that.
Executive: Excellent! Fire them.
Designer: What? Why?
Executive: Well, you said we’re overbudget. We can do without them. Trust me, they did this with that second Deus Ex game. And no one even noticed!
Designer: Sir, that game was pretty bad-
Executive: Nonsense! It’ll be fine. Next?
Designer: Uh… the Radiant AI. Yeah, heh, it’s a little bit harder than we thought.
Executive: Oh man. What can the AI do right now?
Designer: Well… they can walk around and stuff. But nothing we really promised. But we’re working on it!
Executive: Forget it. Trust me, the players won’t even be looking at the AI. They’ll be so fascinated with the graphics that they’ll forget they’re even in a game! You have the deer in already, right?
Designer: Yeah, the deer are in right now.
Executive: Good! We’ll just make a huge deal about that and everything will think our AI is great. “Look, we have DEER!” We can also script up some video and make everyone think that our AI is tremendous.
Designer: Well, if you say so. Now, about the voice actors.
Executive: Yes! We did get Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean, right?
Designer: Yes sir, we did. Two of our designers had to sell their first born children, and one of our sound artists actually had to sell his soul, but we got them!
Executive: That’s so cool. Imagine, you’re in the game, and you go talk to Patrick Stewart anytime you want-
Designer: Ten minutes.
Executive: Ten minutes? What?
Designer: Yeah, he’s only in the game for about ten minutes. Maybe twenty, if you stretch it enough.
Executive: Oh, man. I guess we can still make a big deal of him being in it though. Well, we still got Bean, right?
Designer: Yeah, him we managed to get for the whole game. That’s why the guy had to sell his soul. Agents are a [censored], you know.
Executive: Right on. Now, I noticed we got a lot of NPCs in the game, so I figure we have about thirty actors, right?
Designer: Kinda. More like five.
Executive: Five actors?
Designer: Yeah. But don’t worry, they can do different accents. It’ll be fine. We think the player would never actually notice it.
Executive: Well, as long as you say so. Now, what about patches?
Designer: Patches?
Executive: Good answer. So, anything else?
Designer: Not really. But we’re still heavily over budget. We have to get a lot more money for this game.
Executive: Really? Wow. Well… wait, you said horse armor was already in the game?
Designer: Yep, it’s fully functional.
Executive: I think I have an idea…

Epic have a vested interest in releasing content free for UT2k4-- for adoption into gaming leagues such as the CPL and GGL, and to a lesser extent TWL and CAL. They aren't doing it out of the kindness of their heart.

I don't think I ever implied it was the kindness of their heart. I was pointing out that their statement that they couldn't do it for free is misleading. They could do it for free, they choose not to.

Just like the comparisons of HL2 and SiN to Oblivion, comparing content creation for Oblivion to games like UT2k4 and GalCiv2 is also unfair.

In what way? Are you suggesting that the cost of extra content should be based the on the genre? I don't think that follows. Epic and Stardock had to pay people to make the content. They chose to give that content to their customers for free. Bethesda chooses to charge people for it. Seems like a fair comparison.

Go to Gamasutra...Stardock just posted an interesting post-mortem on GalCiv2; including the nugget that (duh!) their post release addons and care really dont come from the kindness of their hearts, but just make good business sense.

I'll have to check it out. I assume it's something to do with customer service, and the brand image. SD can really afford to do that, being an independant company IMO.

Plus, GalCiv2 is 3D, not 2D.

My bad-- I've never even played the game, not even from the StarForce torrent

Erm...no. On second thought, that depends exactly on what you're trying to code and/or how large that dungeon is. But in basic terms, the coding is easier to implement (cause it's just code and compile, not plan layout, create mesh and textures, export/convert, do voices, script).

When I was flipping through the changelogs from other discussions here, I think almost all, if not all changes would've been less complex than crafting a quest for Oblivion with new custom content.

It seems Bethesda are experiementing though, first the horse armor, and then something bigger at the same size. I think they're working their way up to NWN-like modules, and selling them for a good price that most of us here would agree is a good deal. At least if they continue their trend of raising amount of content with only no/small increase in price. Who knows, maybe Bethesda has a different set of people working on these addons, and have to get used to the tools.

If it only cost them $300 to make...yes, we'll complain.

And we haven't seen a mesh importer/exporter yet, or heard anything about it coming out of licensing hell. 'Till that time, all people can do is use Bethesda content and script.

Go to Gamasutra...Stardock just posted an interesting post-mortem on GalCiv2; including the nugget that (duh!) their post release addons and care really dont come from the kindness of their hearts, but just make good business sense.

Plus, GalCiv2 is 3D, not 2D.

"Mind you stuff that's done in code is even easier to add than a dungeon"

Erm...no. On second thought, that depends exactly on what you're trying to code and/or how large that dungeon is. But in basic terms, the coding is easier to implement (cause it's just code and compile, not plan layout, create mesh and textures, export/convert, do voices, script).

Bethesda releases a game with more content than any 5 other games, plus the editor, and people bitch about them selling mods for 2 bucks a pop?

"We're not the same, I'm an American, you're a sick a--hole." - William 'D-Fens' Foster

Well the horse armor that was released and pulled was in fact THE official B one. How I know this I won't say, but I have seen the entry for the data file and seen it in game.

Honestly if they want to sell it sell it for a buck. Or have all proceed's go to a charity or something. I'd be more inclined to purchase the content at it's 2 buck range if it was going to some worthwhile charity. Not to say B doesn't deserve the money, I honestly think it's very expensive for 2 pieces of armor... for a horse.

*wanting someone to make a Kodo Mount for Oblivion and a Tauren Model*

Funny how a company like Epic can release a lot of new content for UT2K4, or a company like Stardock can continually add new features to GalCiv2, but Bethesda can't manage to give us free horse armour.

Epic have a vested interest in releasing content free for UT2k4-- for adoption into gaming leagues such as the CPL and GGL, and to a lesser extent TWL and CAL. They aren't doing it out of the kindness of their heart.

Stardock and GalCiv2 probably ARE doing it out of the kindness of their heart if any company, although the hurdles of content creation for a 2D game no matter how complex are always going to be less than a 3D game. Mind you stuff that's done in code is even easier to add than a dungeon, and things like that.

Just like the comparisons of HL2 and SiN to Oblivion, comparing content creation for Oblivion to games like UT2k4 and GalCiv2 is also unfair.

As a nice FYI, Microsoft takes $0.30 from every x360 download of the horse mod. That's actually not too bad.

Get one of the leveling mods...couple that with PlasticFoamMan's equipment rarity mods (bandits etc keep on having fur/steel armour for a long while, sometimes elven/dwarven/orcish later on) and that issue is fixed If you have the pc version, that is

Yea your right about the 360 owners. It would be pretty bad if they were the only ones charged.

I don't feel bad for them in the slightest - they are the reason PC users are getting charged. There's no way Bethesda would be pulling this crap if it was just a PC release. But because the 360 is set up to work on this "paying for crap" system, that's the way they are going to do it. And then they can just use the line that you are going for and say "It wouldn't be fair to just charge the 360 users".

Funny how a company like Epic can release a lot of new content for UT2K4, or a company like Stardock can continually add new features to GalCiv2, but Bethesda can't manage to give us free horse armour.

More likely someone uploaded the official Bethesda horse armour (that's the only oen I've seen floating 'round).

That's even more likely since there aint a decent plugin for exporting from a 3d program to Oblivion; it's only been a day or so that people have been using the Civilisation 4 .nif plugin (civ4 is also Gamebryo engine :)) to get meshes ingame...but there are mayor problems with textures, and havok can't be enabled.

What's to prevent someone from justing torrenting B's horse mod? I saw them do that with NWN's Premium mods.

NWNs premium mods were supposed to phone home every time you saved or loaded a game...sounds like they stripped that out?


No idea how B's stuff works...




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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Tolyl Nor, lvl 20 E/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 16 W/Mo

http://www.placeboworld.co.uk

Well...morrwind was mesh, diffuse texture and scripting. Oblivion is mesh, Havok mesh, diffuse texture, bumpmap, normalmap, specular map, extra difficulty sripting (hookup to RadiantAI, more complex scriptlanguage), voiceovers...

Even so, the horse armour couldn't have taken more than 6 to 8 hours to create, end to end (concept to bsa/esp).