Okay, I'll say this again. I disapprove of "piggybacking."

But. Um. That's still not theft. It's trespassing, and a far better analogy to what's going on in these cases. Except for, like folks have been saying, that these routers are broadcasting the fact that they exist and that they are open to anyone with a wireless card.

And I'll say it again, in case three times isn't enough: I don't think it's okay. It's just not theft. Breach of privacy? Maybe. Electronic trespassing? Kinda. Theft? Not so much.

Actually, I guess the cops would call that breaking and entering, though there's no actual breaking or an intent to commit a crime. Whatever. This is still more like trespassing, I think.
This comment was edited on Mar 7, 22:39.

Again, I think it's not too cool to do to someone, but it's certainly not theft.

So if I come into your house, through a window you left open, as long as I don't take anything, it's ok?



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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Tolyl Nor, lvl 20 E/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 13 W/Mo

http://www.goldfrapp.co.uk/

Taking an apple from a store is theft. You now have an apple, and they do not. They lost something.

You take a car from someone, that is theft. You now have a car, and they do not.

You use someone's bandwidth. They download a webpage slightly more slowly. You have taken, well, someone else's time. And only if you were actually using it at the same time they were trying to, and enough to impact their connection.

Okay, so you have stolen time. However, I can stand in the line at a grocery store and pay in change while a very busy person is waiting behind me, and steal even more time. But I wouldn't be accused of theft in that case.

Again, I think it's not too cool to do to someone, but it's certainly not theft.

Should I stop broadcasting my SSID? Would my DS still be able to find the network and connect online?

You can, and it would still work, but it won't really add to your security.

Here's the deal -- broadcasting the SSID just tells the router whether or not to let the world know it's there. If you turn it off, then it just quietly exists and responds to any packets meant for it (which, of course, contain the SSID, so anyone who's trying to discover wireless networks will know about it if you're using it). Again, it only keeps people out who want to be kept out.

I still recommend disabling it. The only reason SSID broadcast should be enabled is if you want random people using your network. It's essentially a public/private flag that never got used properly.

I wish my DS supported WPA. I bought a router specifically for WiFi play but I only have security with 128-bit WEP and I have MAC addresses restricted. I know it's not too hard to break all that but what are my options? This is my first wireless network so I'm not sure what else I can do. Should I stop broadcasting my SSID? Would my DS still be able to find the network and connect online?

Mayor Dan
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http://www.last.fm/user/danorama/
Mario Kart DS Friend Code: 137498-739291
Animal Crossing DS Friend Code: 536936-348405

But, realize -- unless someone wants to crack it they probably won't. There are too many unsecured networks out there to bother with the secured ones.

Exactly...I secure mine (WPA-PSK), yet I can see 4 others around me that are wide open. Given someone that wants to get to the internet, which one are they going to hit?

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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Tolyl Nor, lvl 20 E/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 13 W/Mo

http://www.goldfrapp.co.uk/

I understand I'm not in the cool camp here..but you are completely wrong.

Sigh. You're correct with your examples, but there's other issues at work here.

First, there are perfectly valid unsecured wireless networks out there. Ones that want you to use them. Some people even run them out of their houses. So it's rather difficult to tell whether or not you're supposed to use the network or not (and by use, I mean just connect to and surf normally; not try and break into any machines, or use it as a dupe network for spam/pirating/child porn/etc).

Optimally you'd contact the owner of the network beforehand, or there would be some flag on the network indicating that it was for free use -- but there really isn't. You could accomplish the former with sufficient triangulation, but it's rather difficult to do. As for the latter, well, that's what broadcasting the SSID is supposed to be for, but it's enabled by default on virtually every router out there, so it's useless as well. And there's no convention for SSID naming to indicate open use.

On top of that, there's some FCC regulations on broadcasts, even low power ones such as wireless networks, which make it difficult to claim theft-of-service if you don't take even rudimentary procedures to secure the broadcast station (just turning off SSID broadcast would be sufficient; adding a key, even if crackable, is better).

This is a different situation from leaving your door unlocked, or money laying around, etc. It's like putting up an "Open House" sign on Sunday and then complaining about people wandering through your house the next week because you forgot to take the sign down.

I run a netgear router with 128 bit WPA passphrase which turns into the key

WPA? Are you sure? There are two different encryption standards out there -- WEP (the common one, but utterly useless in reality except to say "hey, look, this is not an open network") and WPA (which is fairly secure, assuming you use a good key. My key is 64-chars, randomly generated, mixed-case, with symbols and numbers. I wish someone luck. Hell, I wish myself luck when I have to type it in).

The XBox Wireless Adaptor sold by MS has no WPA support. I suspect you're using 128-bit WEP, which is very simple to crack. But, realize -- unless someone wants to crack it they probably won't. There are too many unsecured networks out there to bother with the secured ones.

should I consider moving the Xbox into the same room as the router and going with the higher WPA-PSK encryption?

You are using WPA-PSK if you're using WPA at all... otherwise you'd know it (non -PSK generally uses a separate hardware key). And being in the same room doesn't matter a bit as far as encryption goes. The only reason to move the two nearby is for better wireless strength (marginally) or to go wired (which solves every issue listed -- it's faster and it's secure).

Unless Ms. Ramirez (where'd that name come from?) is paying by the byte, they're not really _stealing_ anything from her, per se. Just inconveniencing.

I understand I'm not in the cool camp here..but you are completely wrong.

Whether you/they inconvenince the owner doesn't determine if it is theft. If someone has 30 cars and you steal 1, it won't inconvience them. If someone has $100 billion dollars and you take $1 from them, it isn't an inconvience, but it is theft.

You have no right to take anything that isn't yours. From a car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, to an apple in the grocery store, regardless of the security, or lack there of, you don't own it, so don't take it.

Go to netgear's site. Im quite sure there is a PDF manual you can download on how to do that.

Go to netgear's site. Im quite sure there is a PDF manual you can download on how to do that.

Well i have some questions, I run a netgear router with 128 bit WPA passphrase which turns into the key, I don't go higher due to xbox live issues, is this enough or should I consider moving the Xbox into the same room as the router and going with the higher WPA-PSK encryption?
There is no manual with the router just a fold out piece of paper (cheesy I know but all I have to work with).

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Yes one must take responsibility for their own security, however, are you saying "it's OK to steal cars if they're not locked."?

No no! Not at all -- and in fact, you'll see that in my imaginary little world, Ms. Ramirez's keys had been left in her ignition for six whole months without being stolen

I just find it hilarious that people can grasp something as basic as "take your car keys with you, or someone might use your car without your permission", and yet are outraged to discover that someone has been fiddling with their unsecured wireless network.


EDIT: And while I should point out that I consider both activities to be forms of theft, I will say that it's becoming more and more common in big cities that one can simply open up their laptop and expect to find a unsecure wireless network to use legitimately. Maybe there's one close to Ms. Ramirez's house.

So I feel the onus is most definitely on the network administrator(s) to determine what level of access to provide.

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GW: Tashen Boke [R/Me]; Rosti The Ninja [Mo/R]; Gort Grimley [W/Ne]
This comment was edited on Mar 5, 22:21.

Yes one must take responsibility for their own security, however, are you saying "it's OK to steal cars if they're not locked."?

Not saying that I really agree with piggybacking, but that's a flawed analogy. Maybe if they were magically acquiring the actual access point and denying the owner actual usage of it period... But no, they're just mooching, and (sometimes) slowing things down. Unless Ms. Ramirez (where'd that name come from?) is paying by the byte, they're not really _stealing_ anything from her, per se. Just inconveniencing.

Give me a break, it is almost a damn switch on the router anymore. WEP on, WEP off. Please.

What she should do is add a proxy that alters webpages people download. "Time to log on to my neighbor's wireless and check what's happening in the news... HOLY LORD WHAT IS THAT MAN DOING?? MY BRAIN IS ON FIRE."

This comment was edited on Mar 5, 18:10.

Yet some six months later, Ms. Ramirez had still not removed the keys from her car's ignition.

Yes one must take responsibility for their own security, however, are you saying "it's OK to steal cars if they're not locked."?

Somehow i don't think that would fly very far with judge judy.

Would it have been OK for Ms. Ramirez to beat the guy senseless and then justify it with "well it's his own fault, he should have been wearing better protection!"

If you don't secure your network then STFU. Simple. Don't know how to secure it or can't be bothered to learn? Then don't buy wireless. I swear to God, you should need to write a goddamn test before you get to buy this stuff. Would you leave your wallet out in the open unprotected?

I'm getting really tired of seeing articles like this pop up. Want me to stop piggybacking on your wireless? Then stop broadcasting radio waves into the skies that allow me free and public access to your network. It's so fucking simple.

Yet somehow the idiots who can't be bothered to understand the expensive and complex technology they're putting into service for them are outraged when people go ahead and use it as it's meant to be used. An unencrypted wireless network that lets any ol' MAC address connect is only doing its job, asshats; it's not up to the machine to decide how your network works.

This is the problem right here:

"Most people just plug the thing in," he said of those who buy wireless routers. "Ninety percent of the time it works. You stop at that point and don't bother to turn on its security."

People really need to stop coming home from the stores laden down with expensive technological gadgetry, AND THEN NOT READING THE MANUAL!!! Fuck. I have so little sympathy for folks who do that in the year 2006 and then are mystified to discover they don't know shit-one about how to use the goddamn things they've bought.

And this:

Last August, Ms. Ramirez, 31, a real estate agent, discovered a man camped outside her condominium with a laptop pointed at her building.

When Ms. Ramirez asked the man what he was doing, he said he was stealing a wireless Internet connection because he did not have one at home. She was amused but later had an unsettling thought: "Oh my God. He could be stealing my signal."

Yet some six months later, Ms. Ramirez still has not secured her network.

WTF??? And you can guarantee the idiot woman would be pissed off to discover he had been stealing it. EVEN THOUGH she's not only completely aware of the possibility, but has demonstrated ZERO interest in rectifying the situation.

Ms. Ramirez later approached a man she had seen skulking next to some parked cars. She asked him what he was doing, and he replied "I'm checking to see if anyone left their keys in their car because I don't have one at home." At first she was amused, but then realized "Oh my God! He could be looking for my carkeys!!"

Yet some six months later, Ms. Ramirez had still not removed the keys from her car's ignition.

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GW: Tashen Boke [R/Me]; Rosti The Ninja [Mo/R]; Gort Grimley [W/Ne]

hey neigboor.. learn to fscking encrypt your wifi.