Heck, it's even right there in the "Hail Mary" -- http://www.catholicplanet.com/catholic/hail.htm. That's all that you're asking for -- prayers.

Yes, but where in the Bible does it say to pray to Mary to ask for her intercession? That's what I want to know - what "powers" are prescribed to Mary that she is supposed to pray on our behalf? She's been dead for about 2,000 years and although she was considered "Blessed ... among women" (1:42), where does it say "Oh, and BTW, pray to her, because I won't hear you on your own?" I do not recall any verse saying that you should pray to the dead so they can pray on your behalf....

From your link: "The Hail Mary is based on these passages from the Bible: Luke 1:28-35, 42-48."

Here it is:

1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

1:29 And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

1:43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

1:45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

http://www.godrules.net/library/kjv/kjvluk1.htm

Edit: Please see this: http://www.catholicconcerns.com/MaryWorship.html


Jeremy, I am so ready to take it to the next level.
Really?
Yeah. Do you want to watch me with another girl? How about those Brazilian twins we met at the ball game?


This comment was edited on Feb 9, 00:05.

I seem to remember the whole point of prayers dedicated to saints was to ask for them to speak with 'the big guy' and not to perform any act on their own

Yup. It's not really any different from asking others to pray for you, or a priest, etc.

I've been sick all day, otherwise I would've rebutted FourPak's idiocy and ignorance already. Maybe if he'd heard Mass in English instead of Latin then he would've figured it out himself.

Heck, it's even right there in the "Hail Mary" -- http://www.catholicplanet.com/catholic/hail.htm. That's all that you're asking for -- prayers. It's in plain English (or simple Latin if you prefer -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary .

People consider Chuck Norris badass? Do these people realise that Chuck Norris is, in fact, older than Harrison Ford and Sean Connery COMBINED?

I thought that part of the humor was that he's really not that badass, and thus folks are making fun of that.

This comment was edited on Feb 8, 09:59.

In fact when I first saw Raiders of the Lost Ark I didn't even know about the whole 'Ark of the Covenant' thing so I just considered it as some sort of mystical non-existent artifact without any religious connotation. And even now I still do, having never been brainwashed about that particular magic box in my youth..

I wonder if it might be more of a Catholic thing? I was raised Protestant and never heard of it until the movie, either. Don't assume that all Christians think the same things about these "artifacts".

Really?
It is implied (the ark - not Moses) that when someone touched the ark they perished - have to check one my King James when I get home.

/edit: Damn Z, I should have logged on last night. You beat me to it. Should have known if anyone would do it......it be you. [As a curious young lad, I read the Bible a few times....tried to figure all that crap out - still not impressed]

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This comment was edited on Feb 8, 09:59.

…anyone….anyone…buller?

At what age do people not know that?
I ran into the problem this past week.

Damn kids these days.
Also had a comment from another individual at the same time (that is a couple years older than I am) that voiced the same thing. He is a teacher and used it....just got blank stares.

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Looking to add BF2 members to our clan. Drop a line if interested.

Sigh yes they do.

Thank you. I have a friend who is Catholic and I know he could never answer it for me, because he really didn't know why he did, either.

I said I was raised Protestant, I never said I have read the whole Bible.

While I can't say I believe in anything but myself at this point I would argue that people of the Catholic faith pray through the saints to get to God not to them.

I had a similar upbringing and 'education' as a previous poster and I seem to remember the whole point of prayers dedicated to saints was to ask for them to speak with 'the big guy' and not to perform any act on their own. I think that may have been the point Zathrus was trying to make.

Minor point? Maybe. I find it funny that virtually every other denomination of christianity points fingers at the Roman Catholics as if they are some sort of Darth Vader of religion. I'm not saying that organized religion is a good or bad thing - just an observation.


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teh m4y0r ownz a GabeN b4ckp4k
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- WoW Guild / Board
This comment was edited on Feb 8, 07:31.

Why does bluesnews.com have such old meta content Keywords?


<meta content="Quake III Arena, Computer, Games, news, Quake II, Sin, Doom, Duke Nukem, Half-Life, Unreal, Jedi Knight, Starsiege Tribes, The Sims, Heretic, First Person Shooters, 3D, Action Gaming, Delta Force, Hardware, Deathmatch, Multiplayer, Information, Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, Carmack, Red Alert, Baldur's Gate, riboflavin, thiamin, niacin, folic acid, zinc, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, caffeine, chilli, dopefish"
name="Keywords">

http://profiles.lazygirls.info/sambeckett

6:12 - I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became as blood.
6:13 - The stars of the sky fell to the earth, like a fig tree dropping its unripe figs when it is shaken by a great wind.
6:14 - The sky was removed like a scroll when it is rolled up. Every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
6:15 - The kings of the earth, the princes, the commanding officers, the rich, the strong, and every slave and free person, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains.
6:16 - They told the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
6:17 - for the great day of his wrath has come; and who is able to stand?"
6:18- After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.
6:19 - I saw another angel ascend from the sunrise, having the seal of the living God. He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to harm the earth and the sea,
6:20 - saying, "Don't harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!"

________________________
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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/errantways_music.htm
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/invisibleacropolis_music.htm

Sigh yes they do.

Thank you. I have a friend who is Catholic and I know he could never answer it for me, because he really didn't know why he did, either.

I said I was raised Protestant, I never said I have read the whole Bible.



Jeremy, I am so ready to take it to the next level.
Really?
Yeah. Do you want to watch me with another girl? How about those Brazilian twins we met at the ball game?

People consider Chuck Norris badass? Do these people realise that Chuck Norris is, in fact, older than Harrison Ford and Sean Connery COMBINED

Yeah, but he still works out and is in great shape for his age. And all of his movies before 1992, he was playing the badass...soo....yeah sure why not. Besides, in a recent cartoon song/music thing Blue post Chuck Norris crushed Batmans head between his thighs...if that is not badass I do not know what is!


Behold…this land. And we shall call it [pause] this land. Maybe we should call it your grave!. Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal! -Wash
http://www.frappr.com/bluesnewsmembers

And I still have no idea why Catholics worshoip/pray to the Virgin Mary
Sigh. They don't. Nor do they to saints.

*bounces a communion wafer off Z's head*
Sigh yes they do.
Google "catholic doctrine mariology" and be amazed at the plethora of contradiction.

I grew up in a staunchly old-school traditional conservative mid-western Catholic home (mass in Latin baybee, priest facing Away from parishoners, no devil guitar music allowed!), for 18 years went to church every sunday (mostly the full length High Mass, not the quickie Low Mass for slackers) + every freakin holy day in the calendar cuz Mom forced me to, did all the sacraments and rituals and confession and Palm Sunday smudges and rosaries and this/that/theother saints days, went to Catholic Grade School for 8 years with full-black-habit nuns doing the teaching (i forget which Order they were, but no, not Our Lady of Perpetual Torment), went to Confraternity of Catholic Doctrine classes thru high school, and ima tellin ya...

while official Holy Roman Catholic Church doctrine waffles and obfuscates on what exactly IS the official position from one Vatican Council to the next, rank and file Catholics DO indeed Worship and Pray To Mary and the Saints.

Of course as with most western religious folks, protestant or catholic or jewish or islamic, if you press them on Why they believe, and to explain to you in detail -precisely- What it is they actually believe, they are unAble to provide an answer beyond "well I was raised that way" or "well we always belived that way", meaning their belief and practice is little more than cultural conditioning, a desire to be part of a social community, and a strong emotional desire to believe in 'something' beyond themselves.
---
edit: oh and the Ark of the Covenant is a purely Jewish thing pre-dating Christianity by many many centuries. It was a literal gilded wooden box that was lugged around by the Israelites thru the desert during the Exodus from Egypt led by Moses. It was built to contain the 10 Commandment rock tablets that God gave to Moses and it symbolically represented God's 'Covenant' (promise) that He made with His chosen people never to abandon them.

Most of the magical mystical movie stuff about the Ark was cooked up during medieval roman catholic times, though the Old Testament does mention instances where God's power was demonstrated to His people thru the Ark, and it was thru the Ark that God somehow or another manifested Himself and gave instructions to Moses.

Extraordinarliy detailed instructions on it's construction are found in Exodus 25:10-22

Have them make a chest of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the chest to carry it. The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed. Then put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you.

"Make an atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.
-Exodus 25:10-22

This comment was edited on Feb 7, 21:36.

People consider Chuck Norris badass? Do these people realise that Chuck Norris is, in fact, older than Harrison Ford and Sean Connery COMBINED?

As for Indy 4, not 100% sure where I read it, but Connery is 99% certainly out. Seeing as how he retired and all.

I hope the movie will be cool, but after Lucas' thorough rape of the Star Wars franchise, I can only whimper softly in the dark when I think of all the horrible things he could to to Indy

Creston

Alright...I think another "bet you a Popeye's biscuit you're wrong" bet is in order.

Man...this is the easiest most sure bet ever.
How about a 3 chicken strip dinner (spicy of course)?

"Schwartz created a slight breach of etiquette by skipping the triple dare and going right for the throat!"



--------------------------------------------------------------
GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Tolyl Nor, lvl 20 E/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 13 W/Mo

http://www.goldfrapp.co.uk/

Feb 15th

Creston

Edit : and at the end of the first week of baseball, my Royals are usually never more than 5 games out of first place

Lol. Excellent optimism!

Edit 2 : The Pro Bowl....although it is like watching an NBA game, no defense and all posturing. I predict record levels of scoring this year

Peyton has been breathlessly awaiting the Pro Bowl (again) so that he can prove he's still The Man.

This comment was edited on Feb 7, 20:44.

hello? you all suck cocks.. but relativity of a ticks life makes parasitism GOOD enough to make a fine feast

but then again what would a stupid kid rebelling against his mama + papa think about book lernins - anyone can run they mouth but it takes a wild wind to shut him up for GOOD

YOU EVIL BASTARDS!!!! die

________________________
music from space captain:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/errantways_music.htm
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/invisibleacropolis_music.htm

http://ridiculousjobpostings.com/blogs/blog/archive/2006/01/23/3.aspx

Alright...I think another "bet you a Popeye's biscuit you're wrong" bet is in order.

Man...this is the easiest most sure bet ever.
How about a 3 chicken strip dinner (spicy of course)?

Behold…this land. And we shall call it [pause] this land. Maybe we should call it your grave!. Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal! -Wash
http://www.frappr.com/bluesnewsmembers

I wonder if it might be more of a Catholic thing?

No. It's a Judeo-Christian thing. The Ark of the Covenant is very clearly spelled out in the Old Testament (in Christian parlance), primarily in Numbers and Deuteronomy. Raiders is actually pretty accurate on the story of the ark, the look (which is spelled out very explicity), and so forth.

If you're not familiar with it, it's just because you haven't read the Bible (or the Judaic equivalent of its Old Testament).

And I still have no idea why Catholics worshoip/pray to the Virgin Mary

Sigh. They don't. Nor do they to saints. I'm not going to try and explain the Catholic faith though, but why not read their own sites instead? http://www.catholic.org and http://www.oncecatholic.org . I personally think the Roman Catholic Church has some serious issues, but these misconceptions are so minor it's not even funny.

Anyway -- Raiders rocked, I thought Lost Crusade was very good too (nearly as good IMO), but Temple was pretty "eh". Not because I didn't buy into the "hocus pocus" (and, uh, you're fine with the "hocus pocus" in Raiders and LC? Please...) or the SFX, but because it just wasn't as good of a movie. The dialogue wasn't as good, the acting wasn't as good, and it just generally "lacked".

And yeah, the principals are just too old at this point to hope for much with Indy4.

The Catholics also elevate their saints to the level of gods, and of course the Catholic church came up with the whole trifecta of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit being three separate entities, or whatever they are.

If one were to believe in the whole idea of Satan vs God, the Catholic church would seem altogether Satanic (the Pope basically *is* God), with magical spells, secret ceremonies, selling 'blessed' water, etc. etc.

How about this though, if Satan were really clever, couldn't he convince you that he was God and then make you do all sorts of things that he said were good but really weren't? And isn't the whole idea of Christianity to keep you away from Satan because he's so very clever and you just can't do it on your own?

Once you introduce the idea of pure 'good' and pure 'evil', you're boned. Have fun..

This comment was edited on Feb 7, 18:38.

But the next one will suck...

Alright...I think another "bet you a Popeye's biscuit you're wrong" bet is in order.



--------------------------------------------------------------
GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Tolyl Nor, lvl 20 E/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 13 W/Mo

http://www.goldfrapp.co.uk/