Again, straight from Brad Wardell's mouth.

Cool stuff. I'll definitely be sure to support them if there's a game that interests me. I still don't think that method will take off though the happy medium being somewhere between TG and Steam.

20 years ago, copy protection was a rarity, and it amounted to nothing more just checking pages in your game manual for key phrases or a silly cardboard dial with runes on it. now we have cd-keys and activation and more and more ridiculous methods. You're wishing for those simpler days right now, arent you. Too late!

Are you kidding me? No, really, are you kidding me? You'd rather have to look up the third word of the second paragraph on the 5th page of the manual than enter a CD key written on the jewel case during installation?

I'd much rather what we have today.

You can argue that we did it to ourselves, too. Back in the "simpler days" sharing something with friends was common, but it ended there. You bought something, maybe 1-5 people would grab it off of you.
Today, with the internet, one person buys something and tens or even hundreds of thousands grab it off of them.


It's absolutely true that all these copyright protections only screw the legitimate user. On the flip side, CD keys have worked fairly well in some instances. While they can't do much to stop single player piracy, they've done their job with multiplayer. It's getting worked around, but slower. Look at the original HL. I knew plenty of kids that just installed from someone else's CD, but eventually bought it for online.


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Doomriders: the first new band worth a signature - http://www.deathwishinc.com/

Does StarDock let you download/install the game online?

Yup, it does:

TotalGaming.net [(TG)] refers to our overall gaming network. You can buy our games inpidually at the store directly, or you can just pay $69.95[US] and get 10 tokens that you can use to get specific games at a steep discount. So even years from now, TotalGaming members may have their tokens that they can use to get a new game instead of getting titles they may not want.

To steal an analogy I saw online, it’s like iTunes for games. Except you can re-download our games at any time. Let’s say you lose your GalCiv CD, no problem, you can download the whole game from us as long as you have a valid serial number. Plus once you’ve registered once with us, you can lose your serial number too because we can resend it to you forever after. So even five years from now, you can get a new PC, put in your serial number (or have it emailed to you automatically if you’ve lost that) and install the latest/greatest version of our games.

The biggest advantage of [TG] is that there’s no hassle. There’s no digital rights management (DRM) or anything like that. You install the game on as many of your own computers as you want. We do keep track to make sure it’s not being installed from say California and New York at the same time, but if you want to put our games on your PC and laptop, knock yourself out.

Again, straight from Brad Wardell's mouth.

Does StarDock let you download/install the game online? I haven't had experience with them. Otherwise, I really do like the idea behind their system. A bit too liberal for most companies to use though. I think the market that their games cater to (at least games like the Political Machine) are less likely to be pirated. I don't know, knowing fo rsure would require numbers we really don't have access to have.

Traditional CD-keys tied in with cd-key protected content is hopefully the future of DD for the most part, though I'm sure Draconian measures and applications we'll have to go through.

I think the moral of the story is:

you can't stop piracy...but if you keep your customers happy, they'll be less inclined to. treat your customers like criminals, and they'll pirate just to spite you.

legit customers shouldn't have to pay the price for anti-piracy schemes either. That's like saying we're responsible.

Anyone willing to go to that effort to pirate a game isn't going to buy it anyway. That was his point, and one I agree with. The only real purpose of anti-piracy is to stop casual copying.

The incentive to upgrade is in the fact that the patches don't merely fix bugs, they improve the game (new content, etc).

Just an FYI, every game that attempted to limit access to updates has had the updates on bit torrent usually the same day of their release. I don't really buy that it changes much of anything.

Furthermore, most warez games you can't play online, so unless the pirate is having some trouble from some significant bugs, where's the incentive to want the update in the first place, and therefor buy the game?

This comment was edited on Oct 15, 13:38.

Our primary concern is our customers –- the people who pay my salary. They’re my overlord and I don’t want to inconvenience them. Moreover, piracy is really about how many sales are actually lost. What we do is put out free updates after release. We got "Editor’s Choice Awards" from most of the major game magazines for the original Galactic Civilizations, and that was on the 1.0 version in the box. However, we put out tons of updates after release that greatly enhanced that experience.

So let’s say someone got a "warez" copy. If they like the game, they’re going to want the updates, and to do that, they have to have a valid serial number that is verified on the server side (i.e. no cracks). So at that point, we’re going to get that sale. Or we would have never gotten the sale.

I don’t like game companies treating me like a criminal. If I’m paying $50[US] for a game then I better well be able to put it on my laptop and PC and not have to futz around with keeping track of the CD. Besides, I end up losing my CDs anyway.

BINGO!

that's how you fight piracy. copy protection just eggs crackers on cuz its a challenge to tear down the latest greatest protection scheme. take away the thrill of it and that severely puts a dent in the reasons why people do it in the first place.

fight the motivation to pirate, not the action of pirating. you can't fight pirates with technology, cuz they'll just eventually crack it. what gets built, gets torn down. So the answer, in my opinion, is to fight piracy with psychology.

I don't know why so many people dislike Steam. I find it very useful and unintrusive... the worst thing about it is the interface and that's hardly the end of the world.

I like the way it updates games automatically... sure it is potentially problematic, but the extra features, security and unity of the community [no 1.5 vs 1.6 debates] outweigh the cons; I like the idea of buying games online and having them tied to a central account, it's just a shame that Valve assume everyone to have credit cards (certainly not the case in the UK). Sure it requires you to have an internet connection and it can be a lot data for dialup but it was always intended for broadband, which is becoming ever more popular and ever faster.

I, and many others, feel that Steam is a positive move. Valve could have used it to just fuck over the average user but instead have used it to deliver extra content, extra security and as a system to rival manipulative publishers (that have become more common recently) - by positioning itself as an online distrubitor (with the likes of Rag Doll Kung Fu) they are hoping to change the gaming industry and help small developers (something that so many people wish for).

It's not as if Steam stops people that want to pirate the game. You can always pirate singleplayer games like Half-Life 2 with cracks and online games have always been protected by serial keys (infact the holes in Steam have allowed for more pirates that have managed to bypass the system).

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Emotinomicon: Emoticons of the Dead

How would I implement it? Probably the way Stardock did:

Our primary concern is our customers –- the people who pay my salary. They’re my overlord and I don’t want to inconvenience them. Moreover, piracy is really about how many sales are actually lost. What we do is put out free updates after release. We got "Editor’s Choice Awards" from most of the major game magazines for the original Galactic Civilizations, and that was on the 1.0 version in the box. However, we put out tons of updates after release that greatly enhanced that experience.

So let’s say someone got a "warez" copy. If they like the game, they’re going to want the updates, and to do that, they have to have a valid serial number that is verified on the server side (i.e. no cracks). So at that point, we’re going to get that sale. Or we would have never gotten the sale.

I don’t like game companies treating me like a criminal. If I’m paying $50[US] for a game then I better well be able to put it on my laptop and PC and not have to futz around with keeping track of the CD. Besides, I end up losing my CDs anyway.

Me and Brad Wardell have had our differences, but I agree with him 100% on this one.

I have to agree, the Friends system is complete insanity. XFire's been doing it for years, yet a company infinitely bigger can't work out a simple IM protocol?

Steam may be copy protection, along with DD, but I don't see how you can mark the DD aspect as irrelevant, when it's ability to well, delivery digitally, is still intact, and considering it's relative new territory, not doing too bad.

I don't even believe Valve went for the copy protection part in planning. If their honest-to-God goals were just allowing people access to their games anywhere, how would you go about implementing this system? You start off with accounts, and a listing of what games you have. But you'd have to store account data on their servers, otherwise people would just crack it locally, and have access to every Steam game ever released. That would not be good.

Anyway, how would YOU implement such a system, with the goals being that you could play your games anytime, anywhere? Failing that, how would you go about implementing a DD system in general? You obviously can't do dongles or manuals, that kinda ruins the point of digital, but leaving the games out in the open is just as silly. The only solution I can think of is a traditional CD-Key, but that only helps multiplayer games.

I, as a hypothetical developer, would be pretty pissed that not only if my games were being warezed, but if they were being warezed with my bandwidth, with a simple 3k crack released on some BitTorrent site.

I just don't see a way around it, which is why I don't have any problems, especially with something as ultimately non-invasive as Steam. It's moderately fair, but if the drivers and services start getting installed, then I complain.

It would be great if they just sent it raw, no authentication, or anything, but as people have said (but with different reasoning) they have to make money too. Like I said at the top, Valve may have been planning for digital delivery, but the copy protection just comes as a natural extension thinking it through.

This comment was edited on Oct 15, 03:15.

just as long as you realize that I wasn't specifically referring to *you* I'm just making an argument. I'm not Riley. I'm not going to pretend that I'm better than you, or that I have the answers, or that I have to convince you. I'm just talkin' here.

There is obviously going to be a difference in opinion in that regard of what is tolerable copy protection. I disagree though, I don't think there is a hard-set line of what is (in)tolerable. If someone makes some drastic changes. people complain, but if you do it over time. slowly convince people bit by bit that certain things are acceptable...tolerance then changes.

I'll take physical copy protection (dongle, code phrases, whatever) over apps that phone home for approval *any* day. That's just me, I'm not trying to make the argument that one is better than the other. Just trying to show that we've been dealing with various forms of copy protection for a long time now, and its been sold to us as part of the "war against piracy" I sincerely question if that is the true motive at work here. copy protection is no longer just some program tacked onto a game at the last minute by a clever programmer so that little Billy doesn't make illegal copies for the rest of the clubhouse. Its a business.

And relating this back to Steam, it just seems to me that Steam is more of a copy protection device than it is a digital delivery device. It doesn't matter if you buy HL2 in the store, or through DD, you still have to authenticate through Steam. And so when people focus on "Steam as DD" I consider that an irrelevant issue when compared to the rest of what Steam is.

Tangent: I'm told that steam's friend list still doesn't work even in this new client. Seems like fucked up priorities to me.

Valve: "Yeah yeah yeah, we'll get to the friends list thing later, but damnit, we gotta push out this new GUI!!"

I wouldn't say it's too much a strech, it's a critique of an ideology that you may or may not carry over into the real world.

I'll try and read/respond the rest of the post later, a bit under the weather right now I'm afraid...

This comment was edited on Oct 14, 22:50.

bottom line is that clearly, the only one who gets the shaft because of copy protection is the legitimate user. So common sense says copy protection is not the answer. Copy Protection is a business by itself now, so by definition, someone is legitimately making money because of someone's illegal actions. So eliminating piracy really isn't in the business's best interest in the long run.

The system is broke

Very nicely stated. That's an angle not usually mentioned or even thought of.

I hope you don't apply this thinking to life: you'll never be 100% successful, so don't even bother.

you're comparing life to fighting or not fighting piracy? no seriously, are you? cuz thats a stretch

I can see why someone would think calling Steam a slippery slope is an overreacting 'doom and gloom' statement. But ask yourself, why is there copy protection in the first place? So that pirates can't make illegal copies that threaten profitability. OK fine, but first you have to buy into the business's 'doom and gloom' argument of their own where they convince you of hypothetical situation where no one can make any money and businesses go bankrupt and people lose their livelyhood if everyone pirates stuff. That is the great myth if you ask me. There is always going to be someone to make something, there will always be someone to buy it, and there will always be someone to steal it. Show me a case where someone made something and not one person bought it cuz everyone pirated it instead It's a ridiculous scenario. But that is exactly what the copy protection pundits would have you believe.

I would even go as far as to argue that businesses profit more from piracy than they are hurt from it. If someone makes an illegal copy of something and gets caught..the business gets compensated for it right? they aren't recovering lost profits cuz nothing was actually stolen (stealing and copy infringement are NOT the same thing!)...they're profiting from the pirate's illegal actions, Which in my opinion, is wrong. Yes, if someone physically takes something, the business deserves to be compensated. But if someone merely copies something illegally, yes throw the pirate in jail, but the company should not be compensated.

bottom line is that clearly, the only one who gets the shaft because of copy protection is the legitimate user. So common sense says copy protection is not the answer. Copy Protection is a business by itself now, so by definition, someone is legitimately making money because of someone's illegal actions. So eliminating piracy really isn't in the business's best interest in the long run.

The system is broke

I agree completely with your last part about twisting the English language. They would have you believe that stealing and copy infringement are synonymous in order to fit their inflammatory needs.

thats why its done over time, so people aren't outraged.

Except people have long term memories too, and their thresholds are set absolutely, not relatively. I'm not wishing for your simpler days, please don't infer that about me.

I'd take Steam or Starforce over having to look up manual words and dials anyday. But what do I know, I'm just a corporate schill.

I hope you don't apply this thinking to life: you'll never be 100% successful, so don't even bother.

I'm not concerned about the future of piracy, nor am I the future of copyright protection. I am not hassled by any scheme yet, besides when I'm trying to warez something with no demo. When someone is released that I FEEL is rediculous, then I shall say so. Until then, I don't need to cut off every single move because it may or may not lead to a grim future.

And, more importantly, I will stand up for myself, so I don't need asshats like Riley doing it for me, as inflammatory and insulting and name-calling as he will be to this sentence right here (in addition to taking it out of context I'm sure)

On a side note, people need to look up the definition of the word renting, as it has always been defined as something where you pay in regular intervals. Gotta love people twisting the English language to fit their inflammatory needs ("stealing" music)
This comment was edited on Oct 14, 03:53.

Well, I'm not sure that dongles and such really qualify as the "simpler days".

But yeah, the "over time" thing just reminds me of the frog in the pot. Heat it up slowly, and the frog'll just sit there and boil to death.

I have a problem with the slippery slope argument, all it does is give justifcation for panic and despair prematurely. We're talking about software here, if people are really pissed, and the slope does go downhill, public outrage will make it go back up.

thats why its done over time, so people aren't outraged.

20 years ago, copy protection was a rarity, and it amounted to nothing more just checking pages in your game manual for key phrases or a silly cardboard dial with runes on it. now we have cd-keys and activation and more and more ridiculous methods. You're wishing for those simpler days right now, arent you. Too late!

tell me, are we really better off? has piracy been significantly hampered at all during all this time with these idiotic anti-piracy schemes....or is there some video game equivalent of Dick Cheney telling you that software pirates are in the last throes of their cracking insurgency?

we're already on the slope

PS and damnit, Riley won't draw your ire if you'd start ignoring him for christs sake! No wonder steam is a success, gamers are so easy to bait! See the pretty graphics? you like the pretty graphics dont you?

This comment was edited on Oct 14, 01:45.

You've accepted XP and its activation. You've accepted that you "must" have pay TV or you are lame. Hell, in a few years, you won't get TV (or radio) at all because free broadcasting is going away. You've accepted starforce, steam, and soon to be every other Has-Nothing-To-Do-With-Buying-And-Playing-A-Game type of addon software. Do you want every game to require a net dependent authorization? Support this and it will be that way soon. You accept everything, it seems. Where do you stop conceding your rights and your interests?

Your points will not lead to you being ganged up on, I can assure you. It's not Riley's opinion that draws the ire of the bluesnews crowd as much his attitude and his maniaclly obsessive infatuation with bashing something he never uses.

As far as the point of your post, I can only say I disagree with what you stated. Yes, Steam sucks a mountain of rancid ass imo, but the need to play HL2 outweighed Steam's suckitude in my case. A lesser game I would have passed right over. It's all about personal rationalization and level of tolerance. We all have varying degrees of how much frustration/disappointment that we can stand when it involves something we like to do. And for each one of us, the day might come when we reach that breaking point where the good no longer outweighs the bad and scream, "ENOUGH!', and cease partaking in what we used to enjoy.

The problem is, Riley expects that everyone degree of tolerance must match his exactly or you are an idiot. This is absolutely ludicrous, and any grief he gets for it is ultimately due to his own silliness. Or, 'douchebaggery'(tm).

Dammit, pay attention! He said he used it on some of his friends computers!

Riley has friends?

I have not read every single post in this thread so please forgive me if this has been covered. There seems to be no "proof" that those of us who play HL2 and other Valve games will be able to continue to access those games if/when Valve/Steam go under. Is there any "proof" that we will NOT be able to play those games if/when Valve/Steam go under? Has there been any statements that tell us sorry you are just shit outta luck?

I started playing HL2 over again, and on occasion I will play CS:S against the bots. As long as I don't have an active net connection, I can start Steam in offline mode and play as long as I want.
[edit] Whoops, I guess my point is that Valve could go belly-up tomorrow, but ss long as I don't connect to anything I can still play the game I paid for. Now my stuff isn't backed up, so I'm shit outta luck if my hard drive takes a dirt nap.

Like someone else has mentioned. I think steam is a slippery slope, and if you accept it. warts and all without protest. things will get worse over time. companies need to conform to our wishes...voting with your wallet isn't the best way to look at it either, cuz too many people buy stuff without knowing what they're actually getting, so sales shouldn't really be interpreted as approval/votes of support

People have to put up with high gasoline prices because they don't have a choice. But this is video games we're talking about. I can take my disposable income elsewhere if things get "bad enough". If other sheeple want to put up with the crap, that's their perogative I guess.
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This comment was edited on Oct 13, 23:53.