BF2 Patch Tomorrow

This Battlefield 2 Preview on IGN outlines more of what to expect from the version 1.03 patch for DICE's multiplayer shooter, saying the patch is to be released tomorrow. The preview doesn't really say much that wasn't revealed in the recent update about the patch (story), so there are no further details about point-farming changes and such, but there is a little on the Wake Island 2007 map and word that the patch will weigh in at around 175 MB.
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28.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 12:48
28.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 12:48
Oct 4, 2005, 12:48
 
But there are a maximum number of squads for each team. So not everyone can be a squad leader.

I think you managed to completely miss his point. The next patch should have some way to pick squad leaders like we pick commanders. Instead of a mutiny button, I think a challenge button would work better. Someone with higher rank can challenge a squad leader, and if more than half the squad members vote yes, he gets replaced.

there is no incentive to defend them.

Hopefully easy kills for snipers will be some incentive, cause we all know how much snipers just love to camp a spot where they know enemies will turn up.

-B

This comment was edited on Oct 4, 12:49.
27.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 12:29
27.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 12:29
Oct 4, 2005, 12:29
 
Overon...

I know this. The point is, people who wouldn't (AND SHOULDN'T) normally become squad leaders will now, and it will quickly fill up all the slots. You will have dipshit players who don't know how to command, becoming squad leaders just to keep from getting auto-balanced. It's bad enough already, this will pretty much kills squads on public servers.

---
BF2 Player Name: "MindTrigger"
"...We're gonna string you up, You've got balls but..... We got the whip, we got a better bomb..." -Audioslave
--
He cut the possum's face off then cut around the eye socket. In the center of the belt buckle, where the possum's eye would be, he has placed a small piece of wood from his old '52 Ford's home made railroad tie bumper. Damn, he misses that truck.
26.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 12:19
26.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 12:19
Oct 4, 2005, 12:19
 
Expect players to quickly fill up the max number of squads, because it will prevent them from being changed to the other team. This will be a particular problem on the USMC team. I fully expect squads to be fucked from this. Even more cock gobblers who are too stupid too be REAL squad leaders will start squads because of it. These command positions should be performance based.
But there are a maximum number of squads for each team. So not everyone can be a squad leader.
I would also like to add that DICE needs to put in DEFENSE points for commander assets just like they do for the flag. Commanders are going to find that their stuff is CONSTANTLY down because there will be a new influx of spec ops players now that there are points to be made. Problem is, asset defense will stay at the minimum it already is because there is no incentive to defend them.
I agree with this. There should be points for defending assets since you get points for destroying them.

25.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 12:09
25.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 12:09
Oct 4, 2005, 12:09
 
Do you ever wonder if the people who makes these games actually play them? I mean sure I've been gaming (online fps) for like a decade now, but the things I posted below seem like common sense. It's like people don't completely think through a feature/fix.


---
BF2 Player Name: "MindTrigger"
"...We're gonna string you up, You've got balls but..... We got the whip, we got a better bomb..." -Audioslave

This comment was edited on Oct 4, 12:11.
--
He cut the possum's face off then cut around the eye socket. In the center of the belt buckle, where the possum's eye would be, he has placed a small piece of wood from his old '52 Ford's home made railroad tie bumper. Damn, he misses that truck.
24.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 12:06
24.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 12:06
Oct 4, 2005, 12:06
 
That's a hell of a patch. LOTS of fixes/changes in there. This one is going to become a problem for those of you, like me, who are actually GOOD squad leaders....

- Auto team balance no longer moves players to the other team if they
are a team commander or a squad leader.

Expect players to quickly fill up the max number of squads, because it will prevent them from being changed to the other team. This will be a particular problem on the USMC team. I fully expect squads to be fucked from this. Even more cock gobblers who are too stupid too be REAL squad leaders will start squads because of it. These command positions should be performance based.


I would also like to add that DICE needs to put in DEFENSE points for commander assets just like they do for the flag. Commanders are going to find that their stuff is CONSTANTLY down because there will be a new influx of spec ops players now that there are points to be made. Problem is, asset defense will stay at the minimum it already is because there is no incentive to defend them.

Other than these issues, I'm pretty stoked about this patch. Good job DICE. Better late than shitty.


---
BF2 Player Name: "MindTrigger"
"...We're gonna string you up, You've got balls but..... We got the whip, we got a better bomb..." -Audioslave

This comment was edited on Oct 4, 12:16.
--
He cut the possum's face off then cut around the eye socket. In the center of the belt buckle, where the possum's eye would be, he has placed a small piece of wood from his old '52 Ford's home made railroad tie bumper. Damn, he misses that truck.
23.
 
Patch 1.03 official notes - from EA
Oct 4, 2005, 11:55
23.
Patch 1.03 official notes - from EA Oct 4, 2005, 11:55
Oct 4, 2005, 11:55
 
Taken from: http://largedownloads.ea.com/pub/patches/patch_103_changelog.txt


========================================================================
Patch v1.03
========================================================================


NEW FEATURES

- Wake Island Map

Included a remade version of this popular BF1942 map.
Battlefield 2 version includes a 64 player layout and is
configured for multiplayer only.

- Server Favorites / History

There is a new tab in the MULTIPLAYER menu that holds a list of
the last 20 internet servers you have connected to, plus a list
of servers you have selected as favorites.

* Added a button to the other multiplayer tabs that adds the
currently highlighted server to your favorites list.
* Added buttons in the in-game server info menu (press TAB to
access) that will add or remove the server you are currently
playing on to / from your favorites list.

- Account Login Welcome Screen

After you login to an online account, a message appears that
contains BF2 news and information which updates periodically.

- Stat Compare

By clicking the COMPARE button in BFHQ, you can search for another
players name and load their current stats into BFHQ. Using the
arrow buttons next to the name in the top-left corner of the menu,
you can toggle between your stats and their stats.

You can also load a player's stats by double-clicking on their
name in any leaderboard.

- Nickname Prefix

You can add a 6-character prefix (such as a clan tag) to your
account nickname which will be displayed in-game next to your
nametag in the score menu, in game messages, and above your player
in the game world.

* This prefix does not change your account name or statistic
information (e.g. the prefix does not appear next to your name
on the leaderboards).
* You can change this prefix at any time at the account login
menu.

- Server Reserved Slots

You can define a list of player nicknames that will act as a
"reservation list" for your server.

* The list is located in mods\bf2\settings\ReservedSlots.con
* You can add player names to the list by editing the file and
adding the following text for each player :

reservedSlots.addNick <account name>

where <account name> is the player's registered account name,
not including a nickname prefix (see above).
* You can define the number of slots to set aside for reserved
players in the dedicated server launcher, or with the setting
sv.numReservedSlots <number> in your serverSettings.con file.
* The number of players on the list and the number of reserved
slots does not necessarily have to be the same.

- Mod Support

There are several new changes that improve support for mods.

* When connecting to a server that is running a mod that you have
installed but not activated, it will be automatically activated
and you will load into the server.
* Added a filter on the server browser for servers running the
currently activated mod.
* Fixed dedicated server launcher to properly handle launching mods.
* Improved support for mods sharing archives with bf2

- Improvements to in-game HUD / Map

* The viewable area of the spawn menu / commander map is now scaled
based on the out-of-bounds area so that only the playable area
takes up the majority of viewable map space.
* The names of CPs are now displayed on the spawn menu / commander
map and minimap
* The minimap zoom level now changes dynamically depending on the
type of vehicle you are in. If you zoom in or out manually, that
zoom level is remembered for that vehicle type next time you use
it.
* The names of players in your vehicle are displayed in the HUD
when someone enters the vehicle or switches positions.
* There is a new element in vehicle HUDs that displays the reload
time for countermeasures (smoke and flares).
* Flags for each team are now displayed below their ticket count
on the minimap to make it easier to tell what team you are assigned to.


GAMEPLAY CHANGES

- Many criteria for ranks and awards have changed. If you are immediately
eligible for a new promotion, unlock, badge, award, or ribbon, it will
be awarded the next time you receive points on a ranked server.
- Only 1 player in a vehicle will get credit for or speed up capturing
a flag at a CP. The other passengers must exit the vehicle to increase
the speed of capture or receive capture score.
- Commanders no longer accrue a TK when artillery hits
teammates.
- The commander's supply drop now has an icon on the minimap and a 3D-
map icon in the world.
- Auto team balance no longer moves players to the other team if they
are a team commander or a squad leader.
- The wrench repair rate on helicopters has been decreased.
- You now receive 1 support point for destroying an enemy commander's
artillery, UAV or Radar station.
- If you have received a point for healing, repairing, or resupplying
a teammate, you will not receive another point from them for the same
action for a set period of time.
- Singleplayer enemies use the knife more effectively.
- New engine sounds for the T98 tank.
- New engine sounds for the China/MEC light jeep.
- New cannon sounds on APCs.


BUG FIXES

- Fixed physics of vehicles against soldiers so that soldiers are not
killed so easily by moving vehicles.
- Fixed a physics issue that can cause you to be stuck when falling into
shallow water
- Fixed an issue with soldier armor when spawning on a squad leader in a
vehicle
- Fixed some objects that caused vehicles to take massive collision damage
- Fixed erroneous message stating that you punished a TK when auto-
punish is OFF on the server.
- When a vehicle explodes due to external forces, the driver is no longer
mis-credited for the kills.
- Added turret movement sounds to several vehicles.
- Fixed an issue that caused crosshairs to stay on the screen when
switching camera views.
- Fixed an issue that caused the time limit status of the server not to be
sent to clients when it is changed by the server.
- Fixed server setting sv.allowExternalViews. Setting this to 0 will
disallow external views.
- Added setting for interfaceIP to the server launcher
- Changed automatic TK banning to ban by cd-key instead of IP address
- Improved the stability of secondary position turrets to reduce jerkiness
during movement.
- Fixed spawning on squad leaders to prevent players from spawning where
they should not.
- Fixed issue with auto team balance not sending new players to the team
with less players.
- Set T90 top hatch armor to "Front Armor".
- Set some wheels on jets and helpcopters to stronger armor to prevent
them from being destroyed instantly by AT missiles.
- Adjusted wheeled vehicle engines on hills to improve climbing.
- Changed the Commo-rose behavior so that player does not leave crouch
when using it.
- Passwords entered to join password protected servers are now cleared
after use.
- Improved PLAY NOW functionality.
- Fixed some memory usage issues in the front end.
- Fixed an issue allowing color changes in player name text.
- When you click on a server in the server browser, the information
from that server is updated to be more accurate.
- Fixed a crash in the Ranked Linux server when communication with stats
back-end ceased.
- Improved the behavior of AA missiles when locked on an enemy.
- Fixed an issue where parachuting soldiers could not be healed.
- Added the server port to the SERVER INFO tab.
- Removed the SERVER INFO tab when playing singleplayer
- Fixed an issue causing some soldier & vehicle control keys to be used
for in-game menus.
- Added new soldier artwork in BFHQ
- Added name of video director to credits

22.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 11:55
22.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 11:55
Oct 4, 2005, 11:55
 
They should just call this the e-penis feature. I can hear the fucking dorks who play the game 8+ hours a day already...

-------------------------

- Stat Compare

By clicking the COMPARE button in BFHQ, you can search for another
players name and load their current stats into BFHQ. Using the
arrow buttons next to the name in the top-left corner of the menu,
you can toggle between your stats and their stats.

You can also load a player's stats by double-clicking on their
name in any leaderboard.



---
BF2 Player Name: "MindTrigger"
"...We're gonna string you up, You've got balls but..... We got the whip, we got a better bomb..." -Audioslave
--
He cut the possum's face off then cut around the eye socket. In the center of the belt buckle, where the possum's eye would be, he has placed a small piece of wood from his old '52 Ford's home made railroad tie bumper. Damn, he misses that truck.
21.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 11:43
21.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 11:43
Oct 4, 2005, 11:43
 
Yes patch is out. I'm using an ftp client to get it.

But it's going at like 1.8 KB/s
This comment was edited on Oct 4, 11:46.
20.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 11:05
20.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 11:05
Oct 4, 2005, 11:05
 
Note the patch is now available at http://159.153.197.74/pub/patches/bf2_patch_103.exe
19.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 11:00
19.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 11:00
Oct 4, 2005, 11:00
 
That changelog that was posted in readme and translated is very good. Though I would like to see more details about some of the changes.

18.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 10:56
18.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 10:56
Oct 4, 2005, 10:56
 
I agree they should do a better job, but a change log? It's not going to happen.

I don't know what you're talking about. Plenty of patch releases have changelogs. Search bluesnews.com for "changelog."
17.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 10:49
17.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 10:49
Oct 4, 2005, 10:49
 
That's not accurate

Hrm, that's pretty damn accurate for all the companies I've worked for.

Even the QA turnover docs generally referenced "bug #x" and all the info on replication, environment, etc. were in the bug database. The turnover docs were never something that would be given to customers, even if they were more explicit in the changes and fixes.

I agree they should do a better job, but a change log? It's not going to happen.

And, actually, the patch list from the Taiwanese site seems fairly comprehensive -- at least it includes pretty much everything we've heard to date (which the info a few days ago did not have).

16.
 
Re: Readme
Oct 4, 2005, 10:40
16.
Re: Readme Oct 4, 2005, 10:40
Oct 4, 2005, 10:40
 
Oh great! Now they nerfed the Blackhawk capping even though a Blackhawk is quite easy to take out with a jeep's 50 cal or an APC's cannon.

Also, now when all of my squad is getting injured and I revive them, if I do it too fast I'm getting jipped out of points?! That has to be the most ridiculous fix for an 'exploit' I've ever seen. I don't care if people are exploiting the medic/support personal, as long as I'm not doing it or my team isn't doing it, whatever, I'll report them. They need to focus on catching people doing it rather than fvcking up everyone else's chance of getting points legitimately.

Also, about exploits, they've just created a new, easier way! Now that the Spec Ops gets 1 point for destroying arty, uav, etc, all you need to do is this: 2 teams, each consisting of 1 Support, 1 Spec Ops, and 1 Engineer. The Spec Ops blows the arty, the Engineer on the other team heals, and the Support supplies the spec ops with more ammo to do it again! Wonderful! I'll be Supreme Commander of the Universe in no time! :\

GG EA.
This comment was edited on Oct 4, 10:45.
15.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 10:06
15.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 10:06
Oct 4, 2005, 10:06
 
Um, because things like "fixed bug #60123", "changed someFunction() to not do x when y", or "merged from bf2_alt branch" are utterly useless?

If you're a developer you'd know that those kind of version control comments are par for the course. And that presumes that they're using a VCS that requires comments on commit (many don't).

Plus there's the potential for leaking information on current bugs/security holes or even potential ones ("fixed xyz, but possible bug if you do y -- too hard to fix, leaving for now").

So it becomes the job of a PR flak to figure out what the hell changed, what's "relevant", and put it in a doc. And in that process there is always stuff that gets dropped on the floor, either due to miscommunication or misunderstanding.
That's not accurate. When you give something to beta testers and QA testers, you give them a log of what's changed and what needs testing. You use relevant language that's relevant to the beta testers and QA testers and "changed someFunction()" is not relevant to them.

14.
 
Re: ok then..
Oct 4, 2005, 09:53
14.
Re: ok then.. Oct 4, 2005, 09:53
Oct 4, 2005, 09:53
 
175 MB Patch. I would LOVE to go talk to the guy that was in charge of QA with the QA video they showed on the website before the game was released, and knock him on his ass and say 'WTF WERE YOU THINKING?!?'

Using a steering wheel on a Burnout game is like using the Space Shuttle controls to fly a kite.
https://www.twitch.tv/the_half_elf
Avatar 12670
13.
 
ok then..
Oct 4, 2005, 09:40
13.
ok then.. Oct 4, 2005, 09:40
Oct 4, 2005, 09:40
 
It is tomorrow......waiting.....waiting.....waiting.....

Actually, we have 3 matches this week, so I guess I won't be loading the new patch until TWL gives the thumbs up.

Batman... Batman... Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in, where a man dressed up as a BAT gets all of my press?
This comment was edited on Oct 4, 09:41.
12.
 
Re: HELL YES
Oct 4, 2005, 09:17
12.
Re: HELL YES Oct 4, 2005, 09:17
Oct 4, 2005, 09:17
 
Furthermore why is it so fucking hard for EA/DICE TO GIVE US A GOD DAMN CHANGELOG?

Um, because things like "fixed bug #60123", "changed someFunction() to not do x when y", or "merged from bf2_alt branch" are utterly useless?

If you're a developer you'd know that those kind of version control comments are par for the course. And that presumes that they're using a VCS that requires comments on commit (many don't).

Plus there's the potential for leaking information on current bugs/security holes or even potential ones ("fixed xyz, but possible bug if you do y -- too hard to fix, leaving for now").

So it becomes the job of a PR flak to figure out what the hell changed, what's "relevant", and put it in a doc. And in that process there is always stuff that gets dropped on the floor, either due to miscommunication or misunderstanding.

11.
 
Re: Readme
Oct 4, 2005, 05:43
11.
Re: Readme Oct 4, 2005, 05:43
Oct 4, 2005, 05:43
 
here the english translation of the changelog.


========================================================================
Patch v1.03
========================================================================


NEW FEATURES

- Wake Island Map

Included a remade version of this popular BF1942 map.
Battlefield 2 version includes a 64 player layout and is
configured for multiplayer only.

- Server Favorites / History

There is a new tab in the MULTIPLAYER menu that holds a list of
the last 20 internet servers you have connected to, plus a list
of servers you have selected as favorites.

* Added a button to the other multiplayer tabs that adds the
currently highlighted server to your favorites list.
* Added buttons in the in-game server info menu (press TAB to
access) that will add or remove the server you are currently
playing on to / from your favorites list.

- Account Login Welcome Screen

After you login to an online account, a message appears that
contains BF2 news and information which updates periodically.

- Stat Compare

By clicking the COMPARE button in BFHQ, you can search for another
players name and load their current stats into BFHQ. Using the
arrow buttons next to the name in the top-left corner of the menu,
you can toggle between your stats and their stats.

You can also load a player's stats by double-clicking on their
name in any leaderboard.

- Nickname Prefix

You can add a 6-character prefix (such as a clan tag) to your
account nickname which will be displayed in-game next to your
nametag in the score menu, in game messages, and above your player
in the game world.

* This prefix does not change your account name or statistic
information (e.g. the prefix does not appear next to your name
on the leaderboards).
* You can change this prefix at any time at the account login
menu.

- Server Reserved Slots

You can define a list of player nicknames that will act as a
"reservation list" for your server.

* The list is located in mods\bf2\settings\ReservedSlots.con
* You can add player names to the list by editing the file and
adding the following text for each player :

reservedSlots.addNick

where is the player's registered account name,
not including a nickname prefix (see above).
* You can define the number of slots to set aside for reserved
players in the dedicated server launcher, or with the setting
sv.numReservedSlots in your serverSettings.con file.
* The number of players on the list and the number of reserved
slots does not necessarily have to be the same.

- Mod Support

There are several new changes that improve support for mods.

* When connecting to a server that is running a mod that you have
installed but not activated, it will be automatically activated
and you will load into the server.
* Added a filter on the server browser for servers running the
currently activated mod.
* Fixed dedicated server launcher to properly handle launching mods.
* Improved support for mods sharing archives with bf2

- Improvements to in-game HUD / Map

* The viewable area of the spawn menu / commander map is now scaled
based on the out-of-bounds area so that only the playable area
takes up the majority of viewable map space.
* The names of CPs are now displayed on the spawn menu / commander
map and minimap
* The minimap zoom level now changes dynamically depending on the
type of vehicle you are in. If you zoom in or out manually, that
zoom level is remembered for that vehicle type next time you use
it.
* The names of players in your vehicle are displayed in the HUD
when someone enters the vehicle or switches positions.
* There is a new element in vehicle HUDs that displays the reload
time for countermeasures (smoke and flares).
* Flags for each team are now displayed below their ticket count
on the minimap to make it easier to tell what team you are assigned to.


GAMEPLAY CHANGES

- Many criteria for ranks and awards have changed. If you are immediately
eligible for a new promotion, unlock, badge, award, or ribbon, it will
be awarded the next time you receive points on a ranked server.
- Only 1 player in a vehicle will get credit for or speed up capturing
a flag at a CP. The other passengers must exit the vehicle to increase
the speed of capture or receive capture score.
- Commanders no longer accrue a TK when artillery hits
teammates.
- The commander's supply drop now has an icon on the minimap and a 3D-
map icon in the world.
- Auto team balance no longer moves players to the other team if they
are a team commander or a squad leader.
- The wrench repair rate on helicopters has been decreased.
- You now receive 1 support point for destroying an enemy commander's
artillery, UAV or Radar station.
- If you have received a point for healing, repairing, or resupplying
a teammate, you will not receive another point from them for the same
action for a set period of time.
- Singleplayer enemies use the knife more effectively.
- New engine sounds for the T98 tank.
- New engine sounds for the China/MEC light jeep.
- New cannon sounds on APCs.


BUG FIXES

- Fixed physics of vehicles against soldiers so that soldiers are not
killed so easily by moving vehicles.
- Fixed a physics issue that can cause you to be stuck when falling into
shallow water
- Fixed an issue with soldier armor when spawning on a squad leader in a
vehicle
- Fixed some objects that caused vehicles to take massive collision damage
- Fixed erroneous message stating that you punished a TK when auto-
punish is OFF on the server.
- When a vehicle explodes due to external forces, the driver is no longer
mis-credited for the kills.
- Added turret movement sounds to several vehicles.
- Fixed an issue that caused crosshairs to stay on the screen when
switching camera views.
- Fixed an issue that caused the time limit status of the server not to be
sent to clients when it is changed by the server.
- Fixed server setting sv.allowExternalViews. Setting this to 0 will
disallow external views.
- Added setting for interfaceIP to the server launcher
- Changed automatic TK banning to ban by cd-key instead of IP address
- Improved the stability of secondary position turrets to reduce jerkiness
during movement.
- Fixed spawning on squad leaders to prevent players from spawning where
they should not.
- Fixed issue with auto team balance not sending new players to the team
with less players.
- Set T90 top hatch armor to "Front Armor".
- Set some wheels on jets and helpcopters to stronger armor to prevent
them from being destroyed instantly by AT missiles.
- Adjusted wheeled vehicle engines on hills to improve climbing.
- Changed the Commo-rose behavior so that player does not leave crouch
when using it.
- Passwords entered to join password protected servers are now cleared
after use.
- Improved PLAY NOW functionality.
- Fixed some memory usage issues in the front end.
- Fixed an issue allowing color changes in player name text.
- When you click on a server in the server browser, the information
from that server is updated to be more accurate.
- Fixed a crash in the Ranked Linux server when communication with stats
back-end ceased.
- Improved the behavior of AA missiles when locked on an enemy.
- Fixed an issue where parachuting soldiers could not be healed.
- Added the server port to the SERVER INFO tab.
- Removed the SERVER INFO tab when playing singleplayer
- Fixed an issue causing some soldier & vehicle control keys to be used
for in-game menus.
- Added new soldier artwork in BFHQ
- Added name of video director to credits

10.
 
Readme
Oct 4, 2005, 04:25
Ant
 
10.
Readme Oct 4, 2005, 04:25
Oct 4, 2005, 04:25
 Ant
9.
 
No subject
Oct 4, 2005, 03:50
9.
No subject Oct 4, 2005, 03:50
Oct 4, 2005, 03:50
 
What will end up happening is that people are going to start imagining changes in guns and other things when they install the patch, changes that have not been changed and that will stir up all kinds of shit.

I see you're a veteran of past Counter Strike patches...lol

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Both the “left” and the “right” pretend they have the answer, but they are mere flippers on the same thalidomide baby, and the truth is that neither side has a clue."

- Jim
Avatar 10137
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