I was arguing that making a blanket statement that "violence is never the solution, ever" is incorrect.

In regards to speaking to a child, that hardly sounds like a blanket statement. I mean, you'd have to really pull hard to one extreme to assume that "violence is never the solution, ever" is true as a pure pacifist. Kids tend to be a little smarter than that.

WTF? What the hell does that have to do with parenting? I know your point, but's it so extreme as to be ridiculous.

I was arguing that making a blanket statement that "violence is never the solution, ever" is incorrect. (which btw is why I quoted it at the top of my post) It should be the LAST resort true. But it is a needed solution in a few rare cases, which I then proceded to list a few. WW2 was only one of the categories of cases I mentioned.

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 23:59.

Its like telling your kids, "I don't know what to tell you to change your ways, so i'll just beat you to make you cry"


No, it's like not knowing how to disclipline your kids to begin with. Hitting a kid isn't necessarily bad. You whap the tyke on the arse to get his attention, you're not necessarily mashochist about it.

Besides, isn't this thread pertaining to the now severely overblown farse that is Hot Coffee?


Good point. We never should have stopped Hitler with violent war that cost something like half a million American lives. And thats not even counting the untold numbers of enemy and civilian lives. We should have let him conquer Russia and finish taking over Europe.


WTF? What the hell does that have to do with parenting? I know your point, but's it so extreme as to be ridiculous. And we won't begin arguing the real reasons behind World War II, which was hardly centered on Hitler's death machine.


This comment was edited on Jul 26, 22:54.

People who use their hands/Objects to discipline their children are failures as parents. Its like telling your kids, "I don't know what to tell you to change your ways, so i'll just beat you to make you cry"

Well just to throw a little more gasoline on the (completely unrelated to GTA) fire, why is it that if corporal punishment is an effective parenting techinique that many (if not most) of the troubled kids in the world have been physically abused by their parents? I don't have any stats in front of me, but I know in my personal experiences all the people I've known who were physically "reprimanded" by their parents ended up with drug/alcohol problems or even (in some cases) run-ins with the law.

PZ
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Reading: Naomi Klein's "No Logo"

"Probe"
Hmm is it just me or does that word sound painful, or maybe it was just my last alien Abduction?

I want to teach my kids that violence is not the answer... EVER.

Good point. We never should have stopped Hitler with violent war that cost something like half a million American lives. And thats not even counting the untold numbers of enemy and civilian lives. We should have let him conquer Russia and finish taking over Europe.

I'm sorry but extreme pacifism (non violence) is not the answer. Sometimes you MUST use violence. Justified cases in clude: Defending yourself. (If someone breaks into your home, do you let them rape your wife and kids and then kill you all afterwards?) Defending your country and way of life (this sometimes includes invading other countries like World War II, and sometimes includes defense against invasions). How about cops? They use violence all the time to stop even more violent criminals. Thats justified in many cases as well. Sure, non violent/non lethal works great in a lot of cases, but sometimes you just need to send in the SWAT team.

Basically you look at the possible end results, and decide if violence is justified. And no, I dont mean the ends justify the means. I'm not talking torturing people or napalm bombing in the middle of populated cities just to kill civilians. The end results of Hitler ruling the world are too horrible to contemplate. Far more violence would have resulted from that then stopping him.
The end results of letting criminals roam free would be huge increases in crime.

The point you guys are arguing, is about the end results of using physical displine to disipline a child. Me, I think that if you do it in a loving manner, always use a belt, only on the bottom, explain why, etc, it is very effective (i.e. a spanking that is properly administered). And associating pain with certain actions that a child may do is effective at a young age. Some people think that you can just explain things to a kid, send him to his room (where he can play his PS2 GTA SA) and that will be enough. Well it also depends on the kid. Some kids are very strong willed and need strong discipline measures. Some are very meek and only need someone to ask them to stop to comply. Everyone is differant.

The problems come where people go to extreme measures of either end. You are on the extreme end of no violence for any reason (from what you've been saying in your comments). Others who abuse thier children physically by slapping them around or hitting them, or breaking arms, they are on the extreme violent end. I agree, that kinda stuff should stop and they should be arrested for child abuse if they do those extreme things. I've done some volunteer work at a foster family agency. Its so freaking horrible and sad at how many times 1 and 2 year olds get thrown against walls and arms and legs broken and then left on the street. Of course the parents doing that are usually the weird ones who can't stand a kid crying or some such, at that young age you should not be doing any physical disipline at all.

Most people however are in the middle of the spectrum. Just like how most people are somewhere in the middle politically. Just the normal bell curve stuff.

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 20:16.

I don't know that any other country has re-rated GTA:SA over this crap.

That's because those countries all rated the game appropriately the first time.

With an AO rating a large number of retailers simply will not carry the product -- including small outfits like Walmart, Circuit City, Gamestop, EB Games, CompUSA, etc.

A spokesman for EB Games is quoted in a NY Times article that it only removed the game from the shelves to relabel it. It does not have a firm policy against "Adults Only" games (at least not this one).

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 20:20.

Like I said before, I don't have kids, though I do plan to have them in the not so distant future. Resulting to violence is a cop out, if I ever hit one of my kids I'll be EXTREMELY dissapointed that I let my anger get the best of me.

Violence should never be the answer to any problem.

Anyone that feels that they need to "bust ass" to bring up their child in a proper manner needs to go and get some classes on anger management and communication skills in my opinion. I know there are a lot of people like that out there... I avoid people like that like the plague and will do my best to keep my future kids away from people like that as well.

As a responsible parent, I want to teach my kids that violence is not the answer... EVER.

HE HE yea you aint got kids will see what you have to say by the time there teen strangers!

I'll be EXTREMELY dissapointed that I let my anger get the best of me.

It has nothing to do w/ anger. You DON'T hit out of anger (I can't think of ANY reason when that would be acceptable). But you DO discipline, when it's needed...

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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 10 W/Mo

I have to apologize for the way I feel... http://www.nin.com

abuse and violence is self-replicating - its not the answer.. its the easy way out for stupid people

Spoken like someone who hasn't bothered to read anything about the history of humanity. In our current 'morally enlightened' state we've decided that even though we've never seen the results of a generation of adults raised via a non-violent ideology, we know better about how to parent than the hundred and fifty thousand some odd years of human progress that came before us. Because after all, we are so much more morally advanced now than ever before while on the eve of discussing whether we should be allowed to have sex in our favourite entertainment that is normally comprised only of mass-murder?

Abuse... REAL ABUSE is self-replicating without some sort of therapy or attempt to face what happened in the past. That much I will agree with. Violence has no need for anything to come before it in your lifetime, it's in our nature to begin with. You can't train hundreds of thousands of years of violence out of man by having him sit in the naughty corner for a few years.

Like I said before, I don't have kids, though I do plan to have them in the not so distant future. Resulting to violence is a cop out, if I ever hit one of my kids I'll be EXTREMELY dissapointed that I let my anger get the best of me.

Violence should never be the answer to any problem.

Anyone that feels that they need to "bust ass" to bring up their child in a proper manner needs to go and get some classes on anger management and communication skills in my opinion. I know there are a lot of people like that out there... I avoid people like that like the plague and will do my best to keep my future kids away from people like that as well.

As a responsible parent, I want to teach my kids that violence is not the answer... EVER.

Please. The whole reason kids are out of hand today is because you as a parent forgot how to bust ass...

Right on, NIN!

My father only busted my ass one time. That was all it took! That Bill Cosby route about "I brought you into this world, I'll take you out"? That was my father. You didn't fuck up. He would kill you.







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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 10 W/Mo

I have to apologize for the way I feel... http://www.nin.com

Please. The whole reason kids are out of hand today is because you as a parent forgot how to bust ass...

Right on, NIN!

abuse and violence is self-replicating - its not the answer.. its the easy way out for stupid people

Sorry but that statement is a hell of a generalisation. Hitting kids does them good. Not hitting them all the time obviously, but smacking them on the rump to let them know that they're done something very wrong teaches them a valuable lesson. Chances are a kid who gets smacked for say throwing a stone through a neighbours window with intent to cause damage would never throw a rock at a window again.

Hitting is used as a last resort and supplement to teach kids proper values and ways to act in life. Hitting kids is not an easy way out for stupid people. Stupid people sit back and say "i don't know what to do".

abuse and violence is self-replicating - its not the answer.. its the easy way out for stupid people

For me it was necessary and I will never refer to my parents as "stupid" - neither should you. Discipline is not violence. Look up the term in the dictionary. Unfortunately some people (don't get me wrong - I am not talking about anyone here) take discipline too far and turn that into abuse. Please understand the difference.

"1. Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=discipline

3rd party modifications are a whole different issue than this problem of unlocking questionable content left in by the developers themselves. If Epic left in nude skins for the Unreal characters and people unlocked them, the same problem would occur.

Wasn't the nude Mona skin in Max Payne 2 simply unlocked? Why didn't that raise such a stink? I know Rockstar included simulated sex, so it's not the same thing, but I wonder if Remedy announced the nude skin to the ESRB.

abuse and violence is self-replicating - its not the answer.. its the easy way out for stupid people

________________________
music from space captain:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/errantways_music.htm
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/invisibleacropolis_music.htm

I truly hope that you are not a parent Andy. Though, I myself am not a parent yet, I am fully aware that there and hundreds of ways to discipline, perhaps encourage is a better word, a child to stay on the right track.

Sounds like the only form of discipline that you seem to be aware of involves inflicting pain on your child. Do society a favour, go to your local library and read a few books about how to raise a child effectively.

Please. The whole reason kids are out of hand today is because you as a parent forgot how to bust ass...



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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 10 W/Mo

I have to apologize for the way I feel... http://www.nin.com

Whether kids can still get the games has nothing to do with that statement. The integrity they reference is the idea that what a game is rated accurately represents the content of the game. Due to rockstars bullshit in this case, it's a pretty accurate statement imo that the integrity of the system has been hit.

3rd party modifications are a whole different issue than this problem of unlocking questionable content left in by the developers themselves. If Epic left in nude skins for the Unreal characters and people unlocked them, the same problem would occur. Never mind that you can download nude skins yourselves if you wanted to.