Out of the Blue

Here's a question for those of you more technically apt than myself, which includes my grandma, but I forgot to bring this up at brunch yesterday.

I've been trying to run Battlefield 2 in piggish 1600x1200 on my bust-out retail super-duper 6800 Ultra-OC video card. The card itself seems perfectly capable of running at such high resolution, but I have been getting unexplainable Blue Screen of Death errors in Windows XP with an infinite loop in the NV_DISP driver. The problem does not seem to occur at lower resolutions, but at 16X12 it is intermittent, but inevitable, often preceded by flashes of texture corruption. After a go-through with tech support I cleaned out the old drivers with driver cleaner, reinstalled the latest 77.72 FORCEWARE drivers, and confirmed that if the card's absurdly high 120 degree centigrade heat alarm was not being set off, the problem was probably not thermal.

I then tried again, with the same result.

The BSoD included a message to the effect that the problem was likely with either the driver or the card, so I called back tech support, and was told that it was possible that this was a problem with the application itself. I was then told that in order to demonstrate that the card itself was defective, I was in for the nightmarish prospect of repeatedly reproducing the problem after, a) reinstalling the game, b) using a different 3D app, and c) repeating (a) and (b) on a second machine altogether. Now if that's the process I really must go through to determine the problem, then fair enough, but a Google search on NV_DISP infinite loop errors seems to indicate that this is a problem that's been mysteriously plaguing NVIDIA users for literally years now, and troubleshooting tips range from the useful, like testing your RAM (seven passes by memtest 86 says this wasn't the problem), to the worthless (almost every time someone asks this on a forum he is inundated with driver rollback suggestions, but this has happened with three different driver revisions now), to the spooky (I don't think the most desperate or reckless of users would implement all the different registry hacks I've seen suggested to address this). The one bit of video card related voodoo I still plan I trying here is backing off the AGP speed from 8X to 4X, which worked for me on a different problem once before.

So anyway, my question is simply this (I bet you had almost forgotten by now that I started off promising a question here). Before I embark on the lengthy path set out for me by Mr. Tech Support: is his assertion that the BSoD could be cause by the game code itself is accurate? I know that misbehaving apps are not supposed to be able to crash the system (which to my recollection was genuinely true for my in several years of running Win2K Professional), but I also know that just because something is not supposed to happen, doesn't mean it is impossible (I remember seeing proof-of-concept BSoD code for WinNT that was all of three lines).

So... no application-triggered BSoDs in WinXP... fact, or fiction?

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1.
 
Me trying to help
Jul 17, 2005, 16:17
1.
Me trying to help Jul 17, 2005, 16:17
Jul 17, 2005, 16:17
 
Well Blue, I do quite a bit of OpenGL and Direct3d programming on a WinXP pro system, and I can get it to crash pretty much whenever I want by trying to read or write incorrectly to the vid card memory. In fact, just a few minutes ago I was trying to break the screen up, save it to memory, rearrange it, then draw it back to the buffer and I jacked one of my malloc statments and got a bsod in about 2 seconds.

This comment was edited on Jul 17, 16:19.
2.
 
BsOD
Jul 17, 2005, 16:19
Enahs
 
2.
BsOD Jul 17, 2005, 16:19
Jul 17, 2005, 16:19
 Enahs
 
So... no application-triggered BsODs in WinXP... fact, or fiction?

Since WinXP has been out, I have had only 1 thing cause a BsOD…and it was related to something really fing up with the memory.


Running at that high of resolution, it will be a memory hog on the video card. How much memory does the card you bought have?

What this all leads up to is, if you have not already tried to?? Fool around with your AGP aperture size, as it affects the video cards interaction with the system memory!


“I find the most erotic part of the female anatomy is the boobies.” -Zap
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3.
 
Re: BsOD
Jul 17, 2005, 16:30
3.
Re: BsOD Jul 17, 2005, 16:30
Jul 17, 2005, 16:30
 
This will BSOD Win Xp Pro:
GLubyte* buffer[2];
buffer[0] = (GLubyte *)malloc(800 * 600 * 3);
glReadPixels(0,0,800,600,GL_RGB, GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE,buffer[1]);

buffer[1] is an invalid pointer until memory is allocated for it.

This comment was edited on Jul 17, 16:31.
4.
 
Re: BsOD
Jul 17, 2005, 16:35
4.
Re: BsOD Jul 17, 2005, 16:35
Jul 17, 2005, 16:35
 
Applications CAN crash WinXP all the way to BsOD, its a microsoft tradition Happens frequently enough on my Win2k system as well.

1600x1200 res has been a real problem for the even the newest generation of cards out there, not in terms of performance but in terms of stablility. If I were you I would try playing in 1280x1200 and see if that was A: stable, and B: close enough to 1600:1200 graphically that you can live with such an "inferior" resolution. Also, in most cases of BF2 (although this isn't the case with other games) a lower resolution with heavier AA and AF will look better than a high resolution with lower AA and AF.

I would also be worried about the memory chips on your new card, they might be defective, which would certainly produce BsOD (or worse). Try other resource intensive games at 1600X1200 with high AA and AF and see if you get crashes.

Good Luck Blue.

P.S. I've been neglecting the OotB forum recently, so belated Happy Birthday to Halsy, and my hopes go out to Warhawk's family for a speedy and happy conclusion to their troubles. My sympathies and support are with you.

P.P.S. 8000+....Time for an intervention for nin....

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5.
 
Re: BsOD
Jul 17, 2005, 16:38
5.
Re: BsOD Jul 17, 2005, 16:38
Jul 17, 2005, 16:38
 
I wouldn't know really. I get BsODs now and then, but only when playing certain FPS games. Guess it could be because they are heavier on the hardware, but I am certain it's not a heat related issue.

Fiddling around with AGP aperture size sounds like a good recommendation.

And a question: is that the record for OotB size?

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6.
 
BsOD
Jul 17, 2005, 16:42
Topaz
 
6.
BsOD Jul 17, 2005, 16:42
Jul 17, 2005, 16:42
 Topaz
 
I'm a programmer and I can easily get an app to blue-screen via OLE function calls w/ invalid parameters, but I doubt that's your problem here. (OLE is unlikely to be used in a game.)

High resolutions tend to stress everything in your system, including the CPU, RAM, buses, etc.

Here are a few more things you might want to investigate:

Is it possible that your power supply is not up to the task? I've seen lots of weird system problems occur with flakey power supplies.

Is it possible that your CPU might be overheating, since the video card will be dumping extra heat into the case?

What about the motherboard chipset (North/South bridge chip(s) - are they overheating?

Try running with the case open while a big-ass fan blows onto the motherboard. If that fixes the problem, then you should upgrade 1 or more coolers / fans.

7.
 
Re: BsOD
Jul 17, 2005, 16:43
7.
Re: BsOD Jul 17, 2005, 16:43
Jul 17, 2005, 16:43
 
memory. that'll be it. either vid card or system memory. good luck
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8.
 
Sure it is...
Jul 17, 2005, 16:45
8.
Sure it is... Jul 17, 2005, 16:45
Jul 17, 2005, 16:45
 
We already know that game developers tweak code to perform better on ATI and Nvidia cards, which means the game developer is providing code customized to the card. So, if the developer is handling the memory directly on the card, then there is room for this sort of error that could cause irreconcilable memory hadling issues.

Or...it might be some kind of memory leak. Is 1600x1200 the max for the card? It would be interesting to chart crash frequency to resolution.

---Hog. Gore Hog.

9.
 
Just an idea...
Jul 17, 2005, 16:45
9.
Just an idea... Jul 17, 2005, 16:45
Jul 17, 2005, 16:45
 
I'd try running something like 3DMark 2005 at 16x12 just to see what happens. That would give you another 3D app to test with, and it should give the card a workout.

I'm sure you don't have another 6800OC lying around to swap in and test with, eh, Blue?

Sure WinXP isn't supposed to Blue Screen, but we all know Microsoft...

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10.
 
Re: BsOD
Jul 17, 2005, 16:51
10.
Re: BsOD Jul 17, 2005, 16:51
Jul 17, 2005, 16:51
 
This tip from TweakGuides.com fixed some crashes to my desktop:

"Clearing Shader Optimizations: When you change the graphical settings BF2 attempts to optimize the shaders used in the game for the best performance on your particular hardware. These optimized files are stored in your \Documents and Settings\[username]\My Documents\Battlefield 2\mods\bf2\cache\ directory. If you've changed your settings several times, I recommend you finalize your changes, close BF2, go to the above directory and delete everything under the \cache\ directory. The next time you start the game and play single or multiplayer, your shaders will be optimized again. Close BF2 one more time, defragment your hard drive, and now things should be much smoother and load much faster the next time you go to play BF2."

In regards to the stability of 1600x1200, I have not had any issues. I have a 3.4 Northwood, x800xt pe, 2gb RAM and use 5.6 catalysts. The 5.7's gave me missing textures.

P.S., I added the extra gig of RAM after playing with 1 gig and it really smoothed things out.....and stopped all the hard drive accesses.

This comment was edited on Jul 17, 16:55.
11.
 
Apps can trigger BSoD :-(
Jul 17, 2005, 16:56
11.
Apps can trigger BSoD :-( Jul 17, 2005, 16:56
Jul 17, 2005, 16:56
 
Here's a web page that will give you more information on BSoDs than you really want to know: http://aumha.org/win5/kbestop.htm


This comment was edited on Jul 17, 16:57.
12.
 
No subject
Jul 17, 2005, 17:00
12.
No subject Jul 17, 2005, 17:00
Jul 17, 2005, 17:00
 
Since WinXP has been out, I have had only 1 thing cause a BsOD…and it was related to something really fing up with the memory.

Same here. Matter of fact the problem I just went through with BF2 crashing led to a BSOD on several occasions. Of course it turned out to be a memory issue.

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13.
 
No subject
Jul 17, 2005, 17:02
13.
No subject Jul 17, 2005, 17:02
Jul 17, 2005, 17:02
 
Heh i have no idea about your problem, but one thing to try just in case.

Download NVTweak, open up the program and check every box in there (i think there's a "power user" or "acivate all" button to save time)

Once that is done go via right=clicking on the desktop and go to the GFX card properties (setings-> advanced etc etc). Click on the geforce 6800 tab, and then click on "AGP Settings" and disable fast writes.

Now i dont know if this will fix your problem or not, but it did fix my (previously) inexplicable problem of games stuttering for no reason. But hey, at least its worth a shot.

14.
 
Underclock the card
Jul 17, 2005, 17:06
14.
Underclock the card Jul 17, 2005, 17:06
Jul 17, 2005, 17:06
 
Blue, you might try using something like PowerStrip to underclock the card slightly. Try the memory first, then the core if that doesn't work, then both.

Good luck!

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15.
 
Re: No subject
Jul 17, 2005, 17:07
15.
Re: No subject Jul 17, 2005, 17:07
Jul 17, 2005, 17:07
 
When the demo for Guild Wars came out all those months ago, I couldn't run it for more than 5 minutes without getting a lockup or BSoD. What ended up fixing it was bumping the voltage up on my RAM by 0.1 (or 0.01, I forget... the smallest increment anyway) which worked like a charm. It also stopped XP from the BSoDs I was getting occasionally.

Try swapping in some different RAM, maybe. Could be there's a bad stick and it takes something running at 1600 res to set it off.

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16.
 
Re: No subject
Jul 17, 2005, 17:07
16.
Re: No subject Jul 17, 2005, 17:07
Jul 17, 2005, 17:07
 
Hm, with temps around here having settled around 100 maybe I should connect my extra 12 cm case fan just to keep RAM and onboard chipsets a little cooler... and do one of those regular dust blow outs.

Reality is a nice place, but I wouldn't want to live there!
listening to http://www.progulus.com/ a mountain stream of progressive, rock and metal
17.
 
BSoD
Jul 17, 2005, 17:12
17.
BSoD Jul 17, 2005, 17:12
Jul 17, 2005, 17:12
 
AFAIK, there's only one way an application can crash the entire system -- by using the graphics card interface.

In Win2k (and thus XP) there was a "hole" opened up in the protected memory system to allow faster access to the graphics card hardware, primarily for (shock) games.

Because of this graphics drivers and programs (games) that use the video card intensely can indeed crash the system.

So, yah, the guy is correct. But it could be the game, the driver, a combination thereof, or the hardware.

BTW, most of the "proof of concept" BSoD code was due to bugs in the kernel which have since been patched. El Cabron's example isn't a bug though -- it's bad code that exploits the protection hole.

18.
 
Apperture size?
Jul 17, 2005, 17:43
18.
Apperture size? Jul 17, 2005, 17:43
Jul 17, 2005, 17:43
 
Well this one time, at band camp, I got a BSoD with my GeForce4 TI4200, and set AGP Apperture Size to the highest possible in BIOS, and it worked.

No, seriously, this helped me, and figured you might want to try it out, if you want to run at 8x AGP.

19.
 
Infinite Loop errors
Jul 17, 2005, 17:53
19.
Infinite Loop errors Jul 17, 2005, 17:53
Jul 17, 2005, 17:53
 
Blue -
Ive had the BSoD with WinXP SP2 when my machine was brand new.
Various intensive video usage would trigger the event.
(ATI 9800 pro 256MB, A64 3500+, ASUS A8V Deluxe)

Fixed it by: yup, lowering AGP speed from 8x to 4x.
Then I disabled the VLink 8X option on the motherboard and re-enabled the AGP 8X - and no more problems.

P.S. - I've since upgraded the MB bios, upgraded all VIA & ATI drivers often and now I've enabled the VLink & even fast writes - and the system works flawless! Don't know what actually fixed the issue for good...

20.
 
No subject
Jul 17, 2005, 18:04
20.
No subject Jul 17, 2005, 18:04
Jul 17, 2005, 18:04
 
Blue. Didn't someone just recently have BSoD problems? Turned out to be RAM related. Do you have access (or know somewhere) where you can have your RAM tested?

The BSoDs that I have had prvie to take part in, have all been hardware related, never software related. In fact, I think I have done it on 20+ systems (never on my own system )

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