No. I'm labeling you as an idiot.

Hahaha. This thread is hilarious, I've got to say.

To Zathrus, what I was talking about is simply that "separation of church and state" infers that the Christian God, nor any god be referred to in any way inside of a school, unless through an informative relgion class whose purpose is to expose students to ideals and beliefs, rather than preach or convert.

I've actually had a few positive experiences explaining how the big bang theory and the theory of evolution do not necessarily contradict Christianity or any other form of religion. I personally think it's nonsense for religious people to assume that because a theory is bounded in science, that it's impossible for the god they worship to be behind said science.

Most of the time, I get this point across by saying something along the lines of what Scottish Martial Arts referred to -- this confines an infinite god which Christianity defines as unknowable and unfathomable to something so incompetent that he couldn't orchestrate an unbelievably complex universe creation and lifeform evolution.

I honestly believe that the reason most Christians and other religious people reject these theories so vehemently is because they are uninformed, and think that evolution explicitly discounts the existance of the Christian god, or some equivalent nonsense. I attended a Baptist church for my entire pre-adult life, but became disenchanted because I got tired of seeing so much finger-pointing and so little understanding in a religion that is supposed to be about love, caring, acceptance, and understanding. I believe that the Bible sets forth a set of solid rules by which people ought to live their lives, and everything else is a parable or an event retelling that reinforces these rules.

I feel like most Christians are afraid of the unknown, because they aren't sure of their own faith and tend to convince themselves that they are sure simply by ignoring/rejecting things that question their beliefs. I've had personal experiences in my life that lead me to believe that Christianity is truth, but have come to the conclusion that most of the so-called morality within the modern churches is simply a false pretense for religious people to use as a moral high ground.

Frankly, I feel like people who think that religion is nonsense must also somewhere believe that love and trust are also nonsense. Although human thoughts and feelings are more easily proven than faith in the unseen, you still must make that initial leap of faith and have hope in something of which you lack evidence. Religion isn't for weak people, and I think that the major religions in the world are greatly distorted by their more vocal extremist sides.

Everyone!

Don't feed the trolls!

Reality is a nice place, but I wouldn't want to live there!

You're labeling yourself as a troll.

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“The closer you get to being a pro, the closer you can get to the client. The knife, for example, is the last thing you learn. Ok?"

Thanks for the kind words zathrus, banddirector, et al.

This guy professional just kills me. If you read his history of posts its like reading a Compendium of Cluelessness.

He drops his words of wisdom on us like...
----------------
"Doom III just did not strike me as an engine appropriate for a shooter. All that lighting and quadrillion polygons didn't make squat for a shooter."

"Cats suck and are about as good a pet as a goldfish. Get a dog!"

"Christ, because HUNTING is so fucking CONSTRUCTIVE. You fuck. We arn't living in 1800, if we want food we go to Wal Mart and buy it. "

"Uh oh, the bible called me a fool. Well lemme tell you THIS...
Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice... a... a fool can't be fooled again!"

"Stopping a baseball without a glove would break your hand."

"Why would I want to afflict my computer via fucking lousy console games?"

"Because American football fucking sucks, that's why. I for one think all sports are boring from spectator's PoV, but having played years of basketball/football/soccer/baseball I can easily say football is the single most boring sport ever created. Unless you are a QB or a receiver or a runningback, all you do is push the guy in front of you. Then push him again. Then again. Wow, excitement."

"The scores of shooters and racing games I have played have inevitably vastly increased my reflexes and coordination throughout my activities off the computer.
The scores of strategy, puzzle, and RP games have inevitably vastly improved my cognitive abilities including problem solving and critical thinking. "
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I know I'm not supposed to "pick on" people but this guy just annoys the heck out of me.

***The only reason people follow ethical behavior is to avoid consequence. This is logical, and it is why people don't "run around killing each other."
-You are such an expert on human nature. However, you're last post had nothing to do with ethics, it had to do with your contention that life is meaningless and it was "obvious" that you are a random collection of molecules and not a creation of God. You are changing the subject.

***Let's give a logical example, shall we?
-Seriously Dr. Spock, you need to stop using that word, you seriously don't know what it means.

***I must contest whereas you have no meaning as to word I have perfect understanding.
-Sure... this from a child who espouses how much video games improve his IQ.

***I get a gun. I go shoot somebody. The police come. The police shoot me. Is that too much for you? Anything I do that may be construed as ethically correct is done solely to avoid consequence.
-First of all, why do you care about consequences if life is so meaningless? In your own words you have said that it has no point, and in the next sentnce you said that the point was to enjoy it. Also, you were claiming that you were an existentialist or a nihilist, which I so thoroughly proved was incorrect and so accurately demonstrated how you were, in fact, a hedonist. How does your last point change any of this?

***You also missed the entire point of existence I stated, and that is to enjoy life while it lasts.
-The point was not missed, my response pointed out the contradiction of your arguments.

***That is why I haven't shot myself in the head, as you so bodly suggested. Sitting here at Bluesnews, playing computer games, whatever, is enjoyable to me. So I do it.
-I never disagreed with the fact that you enjoyed computer games. I pointed out my contention that you can't A) Say that you enjoy life, and then B) Claim that life is pointless. Because.... you.... just... made... a point about LIFE (to enjoy) and in the same breath said that it was worthless, meaningless, etc.

***It really is that simple. Perhaps when there is nothing left for me in this world to enjoy I may take your suggestion.
-It wasn't a suggestion, it was a scenario to prove a point. I happen to think life is precious and don't condone suicide outside of extreme medical circumstances.

***And here is something logical for you. If all it takes is a book to form a belief in god, Stephen King would be my idol.
-Not sure what this has to do with anything. I never brought up books are religion. Just another attempt to change the subject.

***You religious zealots preach whatever it is you do lacking one thing that LOGICALLY would provide you with a substantial argument: e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e.
-A) Cool it spock. B)No idea what that sentence means. C) I never characterized anything in terms of religion. It's just a nice label you can apply so that you can paint your opposition as 'unworthy' so you don't have to examine the fallacies of your reasoning.

***I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there is a god may he strike me down right here.
-Wow... thats.... just... brilliant. I'm pretty sure that God doesn't take orders from anyone, let alone fools.

***Oops, I'm still standing.
-Does this type of rediculous sarcasm work on people your age?

You lose.
-But.... self-proclaimed nihilists DON'T CARE who wins and loses right? Can you make it through one single day without saying something stupid on bluesnews.com? If so, we'd all be winners.

Going to have to look up Bonnhoeffer; sounds interesting.
I was thinking the same thing...

Me too.

Also on the topic of evidence, it may be impossible to prove the existence of God but it is also impossible to prove that God does not exist.

But maybe this is not the way to get to this question, but rather as when doing empirical science - where you cannot prove anything. BUT, you can have a theory and make predictions based on it. It seems to me that with this kind of reasoning that our observations fall best in line with the non-existence of God. There not being any God simply makes more sense.

Also, people most often ask you to give a reason as to why there is no God, but much less often the opposite, why should there be a God? Not proof, but a reason. You see my distinction? Hm, maybe I should go see what Bonnhoeffer has to say on the matter...


Reality is a nice place, but I wouldn't want to live there!
This comment was edited on Jul 11, 17:35.

Going to have to look up Bonnhoeffer; sounds interesting.

I was thinking the same thing...

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GW: Nilaar Madalla, lvl 20 R/Mo / Xylos Gath, lvl 10 W/Mo

I have to apologize for the way I feel... http://www.nin.com

Also on the topic of evidence, it may be impossible to prove the existence of God but it is also impossible to prove that God does not exist

Yup. Faith inherently transcends proof. This isn't an inherently bad thing either -- it only becomes so when you try to use faith to contradict proof. Which, for the record, I don't believe you are doing SMA.

Going to have to look up Bonhoeffer; sounds interesting.

Science will never answer a number of questions about life -- namely "why are we here?" and "What came before the beginning?". That doesn't make them bad questions to ask, it just means that they're outside of science's realm, and rather in the realm of philosophy (of which theology is a sub-section IMO). To try and prove or disprove anything regarding them is inherently pointless. There is plenty of room for both science and philosophy.


Edit: Misspelled the guy's name.
This comment was edited on Jul 11, 16:42.

If all it takes is a book to form a belief in god, Stephen King would be my idol. You religious zealots preach whatever it is you do lacking one thing that LOGICALLY would provide you with a substantial argument: e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e.

So I'm a religious zealot? Nice straw man there. I am not Christian and am really on the borderline between atheism and agnosticism. I do however read philosophy and theology to hear other people's ideas so that I might evaluate and better understand my own beliefs. I recommended Bonhoeffer to Cynips not to try to convert him to my way of thinking but to expose him to ideas that will force him to reevaluate how he argues.

Bonhoeffer had two very large problems with the way most Christians treat God: as a God of the Gaps and as a Deus Ex Machina. For all of human existence, God or the Gods were used to explain that which humans did not yet understand and know. Bonhoeffer argues, as did Cynips, that this model forces God into a smaller and smaller role until there is no room left for God because humans will understand everything. In terms of a Deus Ex Machina, Bonhoeffer felt that Christians to often use God to avoid responsibility in there lives. "Boy stuff sure is hard right now, God why arn't you fixing it?" "The Nazis are murdering millions of innocent Jews, but I'm sure it's all in God's Plan and he'll make it better somehow." That, according to Bonhoeffer, is a terrible way to view God because it divorces Christians from any responsibility in their lives.

Those were both arguments that Cynips appeared to be alluding to. Cynips also appeared to justify his own disbelief in the existence of God based upon the fallacy of those two arguments. What if there were other arguments however? Bonnhoeffer had a devout belief in the existence of God and the afterlife and yet he would completely agree with Cynips disdain for the above two ways of viewing God. Therefore Bonnhoeffer must have had other arguments as to why God exists and is important to human life, and he certainly did. That is why I recommended Bonhoeffer to Cynips, so that he could be exposed to compelling ideas that challenged his own. Afterall, Cynips is arguing against the existence of God based upon an outmoded conception of God that is the product of a time long past. Unfortunately many people still base their belief in God on this old world conception and are forced to simply close their eyes to the realities of the modern world, i.e. the folks who run the creationist museum.

As for the evidence comment, Philosophy is a field of intellectual endeaver that does not use empirical observation, it uses reason. Theology, reasonable discourse concerning God, also does not use empirical observation in it's arguments. Your concern over a lack of evidence in Theological arguments suggests that you would also have a hard time giving any merit to Philosophical arguments. Do you believe that Philosophy holds no merit as a field of intellectual endeavor?

Also on the topic of evidence, it may be impossible to prove the existence of God but it is also impossible to prove that God does not exist.

This comment was edited on Jul 11, 16:11.

The only reason people follow ethical behavior is to avoid consequence. This is logical, and it is why people don't "run around killing each other."

Let's give a logical example, shall we? I must contest whereas you have no meaning as to word I have perfect understanding.

I get a gun. I go shoot somebody. The police come. The police shoot me.

Is that too much for you? Anything I do that may be construed as ethically correct is done solely to avoid consequence.

You also missed the entire point of existence I stated, and that is to enjoy life while it lasts. That is why I haven't shot myself in the head, as you so bodly suggested. Sitting here at Bluesnews, playing computer games, whatever, is enjoyable to me. So I do it. It really is that simple. Perhaps when there is nothing left for me in this world to enjoy I may take your suggestion.

And here is something logical for you. If all it takes is a book to form a belief in god, Stephen King would be my idol. You religious zealots preach whatever it is you do lacking one thing that LOGICALLY would provide you with a substantial argument: e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if there is a god may he strike me down right here.

Oops, I'm still standing.

You lose.

------
“The closer you get to being a pro, the closer you can get to the client. The knife, for example, is the last thing you learn. Ok?"

Is there anything besides to explain that which we don't understand and to fill some human phsycological need?

Read Dietrich Bonhoeffer's letters from prison. He rejects both of the above and yet still makes a compelling case for belief in God. Even if you don't buy his theological arguments you'll find a faniscinating and really quite dramatic read, the man was imprisoned by the Nazi's for being one of the group of Protestant theolgians and ministers that refused to be a part of the state Nazi Church.

"This is the end, for me, the beginning of life." -Bonhoeffer's last words before execution

This comment was edited on Jul 11, 15:49.

I agree Zathrus, good points. I think that where we run into trouble is when we start hitting the extreme ends of the spectrum on each side. On one side the religous extreme (whether it be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, whatever) that try to force you to believe in their God, and on the other side the atheist extremists that try to force you to believe there is no God. As a believer in a God, I have no problem with my children learning about creationism and evolution. My opninon is teach them all that you can, from both sides of the fence, and let them form their own opinions.

Excellent reply, StevieWonder.

Agreed. Extremely good. Post here more often please

Athiests need to realize that if there isn't any basis for morals, then we might as well go out and kill each other whenever we want, because it wouldn't really matter

Which is just as much bullshit as what Professional was saying. Why do I have to believe in a God or some other power to have morals or ethics? Sorry, but I don't need a book written several thousand years ago to tell me that killing other humans is a bad idea. Why? Because I'd rather not be at the short end of that stick myself, so who am I to put others in that situation?

It basically comes down to the Golden Rule, which is hardly a concept unique (or even origined) in Christianity (or any of its ancestors/descendants/cousins/etc for that matter). It does not require that you believe in a higher power; merely that you understand that you aren't the only thinking/feeling creature in the universe.

I'm all for morals etc., but if you sit down and think about it: what on earth tells us that there is supposed to be a God. Where did people ever get that notion from? Is there anything besides to explain that which we don't understand and to fill some human phsycological need? I mean, why did we have to come up with this God thing in the first place? Get an historic perspective and the sillyness becomes clear...

Reality is a nice place, but I wouldn't want to live there!

Doesn't work. Trust me, I've tried.

Yes, he is totally correct.

My engineering physics 1 teacher a few years back tried to prove to the class, though “physics”…more specifically with entropy, of how evolution could not account for life as we know it.

It was really sad.


Me personally.

I do not believe it god, but I also do not, not believe in god.

I base my moral decision on how I would like people to treat me.

Yes, my morals are based on the general society morals, which in turn where based on religion…

But ehh…I am too busy trying to make “tha’ cheddar” and “tap dat ass” to worry about if “god” approves. I am not harming anybody, if he/she/it does exist and does not approve….ehh….as I wise man once said….fuck it.


"When I say your dumb name please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me."-Ignignokt

Excellent reply, StevieWonder. Atheists need to realize that if there isn't any basis for morals, then we might as well go out and kill each other whenever we want, because it wouldn't really matter ...



I want to wipe them off the face of the earth with the fury of God's own thunder ...
This comment was edited on Jul 11, 19:38.

Everybody should just adopt the existential and/or nihilistic views I ended up developing.

It's AND because existenialism and nihilism have nothing to do with one another.

I think everything through using basic logic,

No, you don't.

and there is no logical reason for me to believe in any god, deity, superpowerful entity or what have you.

Descartes, Socrates, and other philosophores would disagree, but this is a matter of faith.

There is no answer to the question "why are we here", and if there was, it would serve only to raise further questions.

The question isn't "why are we here" the question is "why am I here."

In understanding there is no possible way to comprehend the origin of existence I have come to realize that merely questioning it is a fruitless endeavor.

That big thud you just heard was a stack of letters of resignation from philosophy professors across the world, and that smoke you see are the librarians burning the works of Sartre, Aristotle, etc.

Q: Why/How are we here?
A: We do not and cannot know.
End of story.

Sounds more like a loser's way to excuse himself for being too lazy to accomplish anything in life.

All that we do know is that man must face two things in his short life: Death and taxes. It is up to each individual to decide what to do until death, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter.

You mean it doesn't matter to YOU. It does matter and your mere existence is proof of that. (Ask your parents why they bothered putting a roof over your head and feeding you)

Logically

There's that word again. You seem to use it so much that you'd think you would know what it means.

the obvious choice is to simply do what one enjoys...

I'm interested in knowing the details of this logic. You would think since it is 'obvious' I wouldn't have to ask. Your entire post is just a way for you to justify being lazy and self-serving.

so here I am, playing computer games, wasting away the meaningless time I have merely enjoying myself.

For once, I agree. You're time spent playing games is meaningless.

When my time comes I will be wiped out of existence,

You don't know this, by your own definition.

and nothing I have done will have any meaning or reason.

Contradiction: Then why do you spend day after day posting on bluesnews sharing your inner-most thoughts about life and the nature of the universe?

That is death. Oblivion.

Again, you "can't know this", by your own statements.

Accepting its inevitability has relieved from my shoulders the weight of countless problems

Like trying to be productive in life, make the world a better place, by forming loving relationships, etc.

the god-believers are plagued with including morals, compassion, sympathy, angst, hate, lust, envy, et al.

Those annoying morals like compassion, it must be nice to be so perfect to have never have needed help from anybody else.

And I gotta tell yah, it feels great.

The Professional, neither existentialist nor nihilist, but in fact, a hednonist.

You are extremely foolish. If everyone was a lethargic nihilist as you claim to be, you wouldn't have the benefit of playing computer games all day because the menumental efforts that have advanced science and technology throughout the ages would not have occured. And it is YOUR view that doesn't hold any logic (something else you don't know anything about.)

Here is an exercise for you Mr. Logic...
*Get a gun and shoot yourself in the head, because if nothing matters and it's all pointless, then you might as well find out of you are right about all of this.
-You aren't going to do this. Why? Probably because you are enjoying your life. If you weren't enjoying your life, you'd obey the first suggestion.
-If you are enjoying your life, then life is 'good'. Why would you enjoy life if life were 'bad'.
-If life is 'good' then you have to acknowledge that there is 'bad' out there, and if you acknowledge 'good' and 'bad' then you have just realized the foundation for all of the morals, emotions, and spirituality that you claim doesn't exist.
This comment was edited on Jul 11, 12:32.

I think what a lot of very (fanatics) religous people seem to forget is that the bible was written by humans. Which are fallible. Now, if you believe in the Christian God you may also believe that he "helped" to write it as well, but really it was written by humans. Humans often make mistakes. As for myself, and my belief in a God but my disdain for organized religion, I believe that the people that wrote the bible either made a lot of things up, or embellished the stories to make them better. Do I think that there may have been miracles, yes. Do I think those miracles have been expanded and "enhanced" by the writers of the bible. Yes.

I honestly believe that if parents had someone sit down, and calmly and rationally explain things to them, they'd get it.

Doesn't work. Trust me, I've tried. You can point out all the logical steps; you can show how the Bible is self-contradictory if you take it literal fact (instead of as allegory) and it simply won't matter. As you said, religion is based on faith and faith is not based on logic. You cannot use logic and reason to counter them because their beliefs are inherently outside of logic.

I'm not saying you cannot change them -- it's possible. But it takes exposure to the outside world in a much greater way than is generally possible. And evolution is one of those things its kinda hard to immerse people in -- even micro-evolution takes too long of a time scale for any convincing visible proofs.

Meanwhile we have people like Professional that are pretty much the poster child for why people fear atheism. Being an agnostic or atheist does not mean you should be amoral or without ethics. Nor does it mean that "everything is pointless" in a nihilistic viewpoint.

I'm an atheist. I've come to that stance after a very long thought process, after having been raised Catholic. I don't have an inherent problem with religion, although I do have problems with fanatics of any stripe (and many atheists who fall into the anti-religious are fanatics). I've seen organized religion help people immensely -- in both "first" and "third" world countries.

Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't have an ethical code, or that there's no greater meaning to life. I could go on about this, but suffice it to say that being totally self-centered is not the right thing. Nor is complete selflessness. There is a middle point.