Yeah but you're missing my point again. All the other activities you described are harmful TO YOURSELF.
If you smoke pot in public, it is harmful to EVERYONE within a certain radius of you. That is a MONSTROUS distinction, in my opinion.

No, I'm not missing your point at all. That's why I support a ban on public smoking of any kind. I think it's safe to say you and I agree on most of the major points brought up. In the end I think it all boils down to this - people should be free to do whatever they want to themselves (even suicide IMHO) so long as their actions do not harm/cost/deprive/etc anyone else. Laws that provide for this are not unreasonable in my opinion.

This comment was edited on Jun 8, 11:49.

In my 25 years of smoking pot and being around other pot smokers I have never experienced anything even remotely like this. Not saying you haven't but rather am suggesting that either a) the case you describe was a rare exception to the norm or b) your friend was smoking more than just pot - dusted with PCP perhaps? I think most people with firsthand experience with pot would agree that the situation you descibed is highly unusual to say the least.

That could be, I don't know. This was a long time ago (early 90s), and I never really checked what exactly they were doing. I found it distasteful enough to begin with.

I've seen 12 year old kids puke their guts out in the street in Amsterdam, and everyone just laughs at it. Is that where we want to go as a society?
No, though I do not agree with your suggestion that legalizing marijuana would be the catalyst that leads to the downfall of a civilized society.

This was more in the vein of an example where simply saying "fuck it, let's let everyone drink whenever and wherever they want." leads to this kind of scenes. Not saying kids would puke their guts out if they smoke. But just as an example that certain legalizations, no matter how badly people whine and complain about them, actually ARE for the public good.

Let's just say that coming from the one country in the world where it IS legal (to smoke pot), it wasn't a great time once it became legal, because it became far more pronounced in public places, to the extent where certain bars and such wound up hanging signs outside that said "No Pot allowed here!"
Trust me, it's REALLY aggravating. (if you don't smoke it).

So at the least, that legalization of pot that YOU want would have to come with another one that bans public smoking (of any kind).

As you acknowledged, marijuana need not be smoked and certainly need not be mixed with tobacco. In any case, last I heard it is not illegal to undertake a particular activity simply because it is unhealthy. Otherwise, you'd have to outlaw eating junkfood, watching TV all day and not exercising, hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, etc. So whether or not smoking marijuana is unhealthy really isn't an issue in my opinion. Remember, crimes are assumed to have victims and you can hardly call someone who willfully chooses to indulge in unhealthy behavior a victim.

Yeah but you're missing my point again. All the other activities you described are harmful TO YOURSELF.
If you smoke pot in public, it is harmful to EVERYONE within a certain radius of you. That is a MONSTROUS distinction, in my opinion.

If someone wants to eat himself to death, it doesn't hurt me in the slightest.
If someone in the same room with me wants to smoke himself to death, odds are it will kill me too...

Creston

What was that halsy?

Oh yeah, Fuck your mama.

There is still a difference. You can eat 8 pounds of KFC, and all you'll do is give yourself an indigestion, and probably foul up someone's toilet for the next 72 hours. It does not impair your ability to be a normal human being

I guess I'd have to ask you what you mean by "normal human being". I am still rational when I smoke. I know right from wrong. If I do over indulge the biggest difference for me is I'll probably get a headache.

Smoke that much pot, and NOBODY knows what you'll do, because your ability to rationalize your actions has vanished. And don't tell me this doesn't happen, I've SEEN it happen.

That's the thing with pot, as I mentioned above, after a certain point the effects don't get more and more pronounced (this is me speaking from my own experience mind you). You will not smoke yourself into a coma but rather smoke yourself into a bad headache. You can't say the same about alcohol which for whatever reason has been accepted by society (*cough* double-standard *cough*).

I had to stop one guy from walking out the fucking window.

In my 25 years of smoking pot and being around other pot smokers I have never experienced anything even remotely like this. Not saying you haven't but rather am suggesting that either a) the case you describe was a rare exception to the norm or b) your friend was smoking more than just pot - dusted with PCP perhaps? I think most people with firsthand experience with pot would agree that the situation you descibed is highly unusual to say the least.

That's a very one sided view. Pot really doesn't make very much profit when it comes down to it. The big sellers are the hard stuff, and would you legalize that too?

I make a distinction and do not lump marijuana with hard drugs such as heroin, the propagandists do not make such a distinction. Yes you can choose to group marijuana and heroin together because they are both drugs, but the similarities end there. There's no comparing your typical pot user with someone who uses something like heroin. Marijuana use does not consume lives they way hard drugs do. There are many successful individual contributing to society who smoke pot. I wouldn't pretend that the same can be said of heroin users. So no, I am not calling on legalizing all drugs and I do not believe the issue should be addressed as an all-or-nothing proposition.

I've seen 12 year old kids puke their guts out in the street in Amsterdam, and everyone just laughs at it. Is that where we want to go as a society?

No, though I do not agree with your suggestion that legalizing marijuana would be the catalyst that leads to the downfall of a civilized society.

It's still smoke bud. Also, I don't know how you roll yours, and I don't really WANT to know, but most of the guys I knew would mix theirs with tobacco to save themselves some money. In the end, you're still burning crap, which still causes burning smoke, which still gets into your lungs if you happen to be near someone who's doing it.

As you acknowledged, marijuana need not be smoked and certainly need not be mixed with tobacco. In any case, last I heard it is not illegal to undertake a particular activity simply because it is unhealthy. Otherwise, you'd have to outlaw eating junkfood, watching TV all day and not exercising, hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, etc. So whether or not smoking marijuana is unhealthy really isn't an issue in my opinion. Remember, crimes are assumed to have victims and you can hardly call someone who willfully chooses to indulge in unhealthy behavior a victim.

If you want to smoke in your own place, go right ahead. I've never had an issue with that.

Now if I could only get the politicians to agree with that statement.

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 20:10.

Frankly, I'm all for banning (prescription) drug advertising to the general public. It's simply wrong to try and convince someone that they need to go get pill X from their doctor -- they don't have the medical background to know if pill X, Y, or Z is best for them -- or no pill at all.

Agreed, and maybe, somehow, we can figure out a way to make it illegal to charge more in the US than other countries for drugs designed and manufactured here....

I am not here to subsidize any drug maker to allow them to sell drugs cheaply overseas.


*** Warhawk ***

I didn't *break* it, I was merely testing its durability, and I *placed* it in the woods cause it's made of wood and I thought he should be with his family.

So I understand that your characterization of pot smokers as "dipshits" is being applied to those individuals who go overboard. However, wouldn't you agree that moderation is called for in most of life's indulgences? For example, I could choose to eat a bucket of fried chicken every night for dinner. Needless to say this behavior would most likely lead to significant health problems (go rent "Supersize Me" for a real-life example) but would anyone ever suggest making fried chicken illegal? It's all about individual choice and so long as that choice does not harm others, so be it.

There is still a difference. You can eat 8 pounds of KFC, and all you'll do is give yourself an indigestion, and probably foul up someone's toilet for the next 72 hours. It does not impair your ability to be a normal human being (apart from all the meatsweats moaning you'll do).

Smoke that much pot, and NOBODY knows what you'll do, because your ability to rationalize your actions has vanished. And don't tell me this doesn't happen, I've SEEN it happen. I had to stop one guy from walking out the fucking window.

I go out of my way to make sure my wife and kids are NEVER around it. It's my choice to smoke and I would not subject anyone to it who was bothered by it, especially my children. I also believe marijuana should be age-regulated, like alcohol, so the question of would I give it to my kids should never come up

Good. Sadly, a lot of people don't have that same distinction.


Of course, if the drugs were legal the black market for them wouldn't exist in the first place so really it's the illegality of drugs that creates the problem and not the drugs themselves.

That's a very one sided view. Pot really doesn't make very much profit when it comes down to it. The big sellers are the hard stuff, and would you legalize that too?
Btw, there is still a black market in Holland for drugs, even though they are basically all legal. How do you explain that?
But the whole black market / terrorism thing, like I said, is not really a discussion I want to go into, since it would take me weeks to research everything.

Well, I would only say that I am an example of someone who's marijuana use has never gotten out of hand. It's all about personal responsibility. Just like some people choose to eat themselves into obesity you are not going to solve the problem by making fatty foods illegal. You'll only create a black market for fatty foods.

Once again with the distinction that you can never become a non rational living being by being obese. Unlike pot. Btw, before you ask, yes I do personally feel that alcohol should undergo the same treatment, although I do think that the US is handling that reasonably well by forbidding sales to the under 21 crowd.
I've seen 12 year old kids puke their guts out in the street in Amsterdam, and everyone just laughs at it. Is that where we want to go as a society?

I'm assuming you're lumping marijuana smoking in with cigarette smoking? I'll just point out that cigarettes are many, many times more harmful than marijuana. The scientific evidence supporting claims that marijuana is just as harmful simply does not exist.

It's still smoke bud. Also, I don't know how you roll yours, and I don't really WANT to know, but most of the guys I knew would mix theirs with tobacco to save themselves some money.
In the end, you're still burning crap, which still causes burning smoke, which still gets into your lungs if you happen to be near someone who's doing it. Ask any firemen if there is such a thing as "non harmful smoke".
There just ISN'T.
Actually, the article you linked even mentions this fact :
'These findings were not unexpected, since it has long been known that, aside from its psychoactive ingredients, marijuana smoke contains virtually the same toxic gases and carcinogenic tars as tobacco'
Ergo, 2nd hand smoke from pot is just as bad as 2nd hand smoke from cigarettes. So rather than saying, ah, lets have them smoke pot in public, we should be banning BOTH from public use. Imo.

Also realize that marijuana does not have to be smoked

True.

In any case, I also support banning all smoking in public places as it imposes on other's right to be in a smoke-free environment

You'd be amazed how many smokers feel that their "Right to smoke" is somehow more important than my right to a smoke free environment.

But once again, what I do in private is my business

If you want to smoke in your own place, go right ahead. I've never had an issue with that.

Creston

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 16:56.

The problem with that statement is that very little research has been done on the subject... In particular there's very little research on the effects of THC, so stating that it's helpful or harmful is rather presumptive.

http://paranoia.lycaeum.org/marijuana/facts/mj-health-mythology.html#myth1

The scientific evidence supporting claims that marijuana is just as harmful simply does not exist.

The problem with that statement is that very little research has been done on the subject (in relation to cigarette smoke, since that's what we're relating this to). And, after all, the tobacco companies once talked up the benefits of smoking, because they had studies that showed them. Of course, they buried all the studies that showed otherwise. And the fact of the matter is that nicotene, by itself, can have helpful effects. It's all the other crap that's the biggest problem.

In particular there's very little research on the effects of THC, so stating that it's helpful or harmful is rather presumptive.

Thanks for the intelligent reply. In my experience, you don't get many of those when the discussion of legalization comes up.

So I understand that your characterization of pot smokers as "dipshits" is being applied to those individuals who go overboard. However, wouldn't you agree that moderation is called for in most of life's indulgences? For example, I could choose to eat a bucket of fried chicken every night for dinner. Needless to say this behavior would most likely lead to significant health problems (go rent "Supersize Me" for a real-life example) but would anyone ever suggest making fried chicken illegal? It's all about individual choice and so long as that choice does not harm others, so be it.

I do hope your kids (since I'm assuming you have kids, family of fours) feel the same way, and that they are not suffering from second hand smoke.

I go out of my way to make sure my wife and kids are NEVER around it. It's my choice to smoke and I would not subject anyone to it who was bothered by it, especially my children. I also believe marijuana should be age-regulated, like alcohol, so the question of would I give it to my kids should never come up (not that you brought it up, I'm just saying).

As for the supporting terrorism claim, I have no detailed knowledge to be able to say either yes or no on that subject, so I just won't get into that.

Well, the basic premise is that money from the sale of illegal drugs ultimately makes it's way into the hands of terrorists since we are talking black market here of which terrorist organizations presumably make up a significant portion. Of course, if the drugs were legal the black market for them wouldn't exist in the first place so really it's the illegality of drugs that creates the problem and not the drugs themselves.

No, I'm making an argument for NOT making it legal, because it will get out of hand.

Well, I would only say that I am an example of someone who's marijuana use has never gotten out of hand. It's all about personal responsibility. Just like some people choose to eat themselves into obesity you are not going to solve the problem by making fatty foods illegal. You'll only create a black market for fatty foods.

But I'm also on the "ban all smoking" bandwagon.

I'm assuming you're lumping marijuana smoking in with cigarette smoking? I'll just point out that cigarettes are many, many times more harmful than marijuana. The scientific evidence supporting claims that marijuana is just as harmful simply does not exist. Also realize that marijuana does not have to be smoked. In any case, I also support banning all smoking in public places as it imposes on other's right to be in a smoke-free environment. But once again, what I do in private is my business.

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 13:24.

To each his own, but I happen to LOVE the smell of pot! Besides, you smell someone whose been "legally" drinking all day?

True, a drunkard is almost just as annoying to me as someone who smokes pot. There is one big difference though. The smell of alcohol wafting out of some guy's mouth is not going to affect my health. Pot smoke will. To me, that is a HUGE difference.


you don't force your morals on me and I won't blow pot smoke in your face.

Very smart idea.


Is it because I smoke pot that I am a "dipshit"?

No, and I didn't intend this as any kind of personal post to you or anything. I had written the post, then afterwards seen that had said that you would blow holes in any argument, so I added the bit at the end that told you to knock yourself out. So it wasn't intended as any kind of statement about you.


I happen to live a very happy, successful life and I provide a very comfortable living for a family of four. So where does the dipshit comment come from? And why is it assumed that I "smoke myself senseless"? Three or four tokes is usually enough for me and I am far from sensless afterwards.

Exactly, which is why I didn't apply this to you. I have no idea what you do, or how you do it. The dipshit comment stems from the fact that I've personally KNOWN people who basically did nothing for days on end but smoke themselves senseless.
There is a HUGE difference between someone having one (which I still don't approve of, but like you said, it's your life, do with it what you will) and someone smoking ten a day (and even more. I've seen guys smoke through 200 grams of pot in a single afternoon / evening)

Two of them were good friends of mine, so I accepted it, but I still called them dipshits for it. If you feel you need or want a joint for whatever reason, fine, but they were taking it way beyond what anyone would consider normal. One of them actually had a long talk with me about it afterwards, since he and I had been friends since we were 4 (we were about 20 or so when this happened), and he really cut down on it, as he realised it was getting out of hand.
The other one kept doing it for quite awhile, until he eventually also quit. Several of the other guys there, with whom I only had a passing acquaintance, for all I know still smoke themselves stupid as of this day.

"Fucked up reason"? My reasons are that - mine. Who are you to judge?

To you, I'm not judging, to the people I was referring to, in my opinion you have to be pretty fucked up to smoke that much pot. I would feel similar to someone who doesn't just get drunk, but who drinks himself completely into insensibility.

The main problem - as your own post illustrates - is a heavily biased opinion held by what I considered a brain-washed public.

Here in the states maybe. I, however, am NOT brainwashed. I have seen, FIRST HAND, UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL what too much pot smoking will do to people, and how it affects anyone unfortunate enough to be caught in that smoke. Obviously, I could have been smarter and just left, but we were having a good time and so I wrestled my way through it a few times, until I finally said enough is enough, because I was really worried about what all that fucking smoke was doing to my lungs.

As for your statements about "PAYING FOR JUNKIES TO GET THEIR FUCKING FIX", I never advocated anything of the sort.

I know, and I didn't say that in reference to anything you said. I just stated that legalizing drugs means you legalize addiction to them. I mean, if you legalize alcohol, and help people addicted to alcohol, you have to do the same thing for junkies. And believe me, the LARGE majority of the junkies in Holland DON'T WANT TO get rid of their addiction, they just love having that fucking bus come by and give them their weekly fucking heroine and whatever else it is they're addicted to.
Legalizing pot seems a small thing, but it's a step towards basically legalizing /accepting every kind of drug. (note, btw, Holland only legalized "soft drugs", under which they include such darlings as Xtc, Liquid Xtc, Red Lebanon etc. Most of which can EASILY kill you. Hard Drugs are not legal, but are "condoned". Which is basically the same thing.)

Let me put it this way - If I choose to smoke/consume marijuana in the privacy of my own home, tell me, who are the victims of this supposed crime I have committed and how exactly have they been victimized?

I said that if someone choses to do this in his own home and it bother nobody else, no shirt off my back.
I do hope your kids (since I'm assuming you have kids, family of fours) feel the same way, and that they are not suffering from second hand smoke. But that's really your problem, not mine.

Again, I wasn't talking to you specifically, apologies that it appeared that way.

As for the supporting terrorism claim, I have no detailed knowledge to be able to say either yes or no on that subject, so I just won't get into that. I can't be arsed to do ten weeks worth of research into it.
I'm sure that if you look hard enough, there's probably some truth to it.

Creston

edit : actually, I do have one more point
Anyway, to address your points, it doesn't really seem like you're making an argument for making pot illegal

No, I'm making an argument for NOT making it legal, because it will get out of hand. But I'm also on the "ban all smoking" bandwagon. You can do whatever you want, as long as it doesn't directly or indirectly affect me, my health, and how I enjoy my environment.
Smoking is a fucking cancer, not just the cause of one, but a cancer on society as well. I don't know if the number is true, but if FIFTY THOUSAND PEOPLE REALLY die of second hand smoke every year, shouldn't it be fucking outlawed??
If someone wants to smoke, and kill himself that way, go right ahead. One less moron on the world. It becomes MY problem when that fucking smoke reaches MY nose.
In restaurants, I will specifically state, NO SMOKING WHATSOEVER. And then they'll give me a table five feet away from the fucking smoking section.
I will refuse to sit there (mostly because my wife has asthma, but also because I cannot enjoy my food while smelling that fucking smoke) and if they don't give me a table as far away as possible from that damn smoking section, I will simply walk out of the restaurant.

That's the one thing California has done right, in my opinion, banning smoking from all public places. I can't wait for them to do the same thing in Oklahoma.

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 12:44.

Did you know, at the annual narcoleptic society meetings they actually have three people taking the minutes in case one or other of them falls asleep. I'm not joking.

To each his own, but I happen to LOVE the smell of pot! Besides, you smell someone whose been "legally" drinking all day?

Anyway, to address your points, it doesn't really seem like you're making an argument for making pot illegal, rather you seem to PERSONALLY not like it. I have no problem with that so there are no flaws to point out. It's called mutual respect - you don't force your morals on me and I won't blow pot smoke in your face.

I do have problems with statements like:

If some dipshit wants to smoke himself senseless for whatever fucked up reason...

Is it because I smoke pot that I am a "dipshit"? I happen to live a very happy, successful life and I provide a very comfortable living for a family of four. So where does the dipshit comment come from? And why is it assumed that I "smoke myself senseless"? Three or four tokes is usually enough for me and I am far from sensless afterwards. "Fucked up reason"? My reasons are that - mine. Who are you to judge? The main problem - as your own post illustrates - is a heavily biased opinion held by what I considered a brain-washed public.

As for your statements about "PAYING FOR JUNKIES TO GET THEIR FUCKING FIX", I never advocated anything of the sort. I'm also focusing soley on marijuana, not all drugs, as I believe pot to be a fairly benign substance.

So I guess what I'm still looking for are arguments for keeping marijuana illegal as opposed to personal opinions.

Let me put it this way - If I choose to smoke/consume marijuana in the privacy of my own home, tell me, who are the victims of this supposed crime I have committed and how exactly have they been victimized? And let me preempt any "supporting terrorism" claims by assuming that this marijuana was grown in my home garden and therefore no money has made it into Osama's hands.

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 11:56.

Actually, coming from the Netherlands (where it's legal) I object to marijuana / pot for the same reasons that I object to smoking.

IT FUCKING STINKS

Here here! I don't care what people do in their own time, as long as they're not bothing others, but I HATE that DAMN SMELL.



If you look at your reflection, is that all you want to be? http://www.nin.com

Actually, coming from the Netherlands (where it's legal) I object to marijuana / pot for the same reasons that I object to smoking.

IT FUCKING STINKS, and there was no way for me to avoid that fucking smell, unless I chose to go to different bars / clubs etc. Also, second hand smoking kills people, and 2nd hand pot smake can DEFINITELY make you very nautious. I used to play D&D with a group of guys who all smoked pot while we played, and it would get so bad I would literally have to sit in an open window with my head outside to stop from getting sick.
Eventually I got it through to them that it was going beyond bothering me into the realm of physically affecting me, and they stopped doing it (so much).

I have no real issue with it being prescribed for medical purposes. If it really helps someone who is in chronic pain, then we'd be cruel to deny it to them. (Just curious, though, why does pot work when something like morphine etc doesn't?)

It becomes a problem when we all go Kumbaya and say fuck it, let everyone smoke it whever the fuck they want.
Because >>I<< DON'T want to smoke it, and >>I<< don't want to sit in the fucking stench of the fucking crap.
And believe me, none of you have any clue how bad it can get when its legalized. Even normal bars (not talking coffeeshops, which are basically just filled with fog) would get intolerable if people started smoking pot inside. But hey, it's legal, so, what can you do, right?

Give me a fucking break.

If some dipshit wants to smoke himself senseless for whatever fucked up reason, INSIDE his own house, go for it, I have no problem with that. (As long as his house doesn't border someone elses and the smoke creeps into his neighbor's house). But keep it there.

Legalizing drugs really is NOT a good thing. You wouldn't believe the festering shithole Holland has become, because they legalized drugs, legalized prostitution, started ignoring certain crimes, PAYING FOR JUNKIES TO GET THEIR FUCKING FIX etc etc etc. It's a door that keeps opening further, all on the backs of the taxpayer.

However, once again, for medicinal purposes, *shrug*. As long as that patient is in a sealed off area so nobody else is bothered by it, I have no problem with it.

Creston

Edit : Btw JM, knock yourself out. Point out to me how my argument is flawed

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 11:16.

Pot is a gateway drug and doesn't have a place in our society.

I think you've watched "Reefer Madness" one too many times. Most people object to marijuana use simply because it's been declared illegal. But ask these same people why is marijuana illegal and you'll find they come up short with legitimate answers beyond the typical anti-drug propaganda that they've been force-fed for years (e.g. - it's a gateway drug that leads to harder drugs).

So I'd like to ask any anti-marijuana folks on this board to provide a list of their reasons as to why marijuana should be illegal and I'll gladly address each and every point and expose the flaws in your logic.

People like you make me sick, you are what is wrong with society today…..you damn whippersnappers!

Look kiddo, back in my day... *snore*

Huh? Wassat? Why'd you wake me from my nap?

As for myself, I take a substantially brain altering drug every day.

/conveniently leaving out of the quote about the prescription part…


That explains what is wrong with you! You narco freak! People like you make me sick, you are what is wrong with society today…..you damn whippersnappers!


"When I say your dumb name please stand up briefly, but then quickly drop to your knees and forsake all others before me."-Ignignokt

And I don't condone the use of any substance which noticeably affects brain function unless under hospitalized, easily-controlled circumstances where use is essential.

Wow, I can't even state how amazingly wrong you are here.

Hope you never take Aspirin, Tylenol, Aleve, Excedrin, or any other OTC pain medicine. Some of those are more powerful than prescription pain killers after all.

As for myself, I take a substantially brain altering drug every day. Without it I simply cannot function -- trust me, on days I forget I know and I very much remember how it was before my condition was diagnosed and I got the prescription.

See, I'm a narcoleptic. Only a moderate case, but without my med (Provigil) I cannot focus and I fall asleep repeatedly during the day. Imagine being permanantly drowsy. That's how it was for me from 7th grade until I was about 22.

The fact of the matter is we know more and more about body chemistry and more and more about how to fix it when it goes wrong. This is not a bad thing. What is a bad thing is people self-prescribing, taking too much (or too little in some cases), and ignoring doctor's advice on their meds. I've seen a lot of that, and that's where most of the problem cases come from.

Frankly, I'm all for banning (prescription) drug advertising to the general public. It's simply wrong to try and convince someone that they need to go get pill X from their doctor -- they don't have the medical background to know if pill X, Y, or Z is best for them -- or no pill at all.

Well, you cant smoke enough marijuana to kill you - its impossible, because your throat will give out long before you get close to the theoretical (not proven) overdose level. No one has ever died of a THC overdose.

On the other hand, it is quite easy to drink enough alcohol to die of posioning right there on the spot. Many, many, many people have died of alcohol posioning (not to mention DUI related accidents).

so - see if you can figure it out

________________________
music from space captain:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/errantways_music.htm
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/invisibleacropolis_music.htm

Pot is a gateway drug and doesn't have a place in our society. Using it for "medical" purposes is Bull and shouldn't be allowed either.

Please tell me you're trolling, because no one could possibly be that fucking stupid. Oh wait, you must be a Bush sheeple. Carry on then. Once again we see GOP hypocrisy and lies in action, so much for state's rights and compassionate conservatism. Meanwhile the Pharma boys are breaking out the champagne and caviar today. P.T. Barnum was talking about GOP voters when he said a sucker was born every minute.


"....and goddamit tuck up those pajamas!"
- Neidermeyer