And then you'd complain of vacuous press releases which say nothing new about an overhyped game. Can't have it both ways, Creston.

I've never really complained about too much news, although there is such a thing as overhyping. NO news, however, isn't very good either. I realise it's a fine line to walk, but there is a way to release some statements, some snippets, some glances at gameplay, a few screenshots, over the course of time, which helps keep the game fresh in your mind, but doesn't oversaturate you. (damn, that was a lot of commas..)

I'd also guess that 100.000-500.000 sold copies was quite a success at the time

I have absolutely NO idea where that article got that number from. 98000 copies was the number that Warren Spector himself stated in an interview, long ago, when asked how many copies DX had sold (for the PC).
I guess it's possible that the article is talking about PC + PSX2, or perhaps even DX + DX2?

Can't remember any more where I read the Spector statement, but it shocked me when I read it. People will buy shite like Postal, but leave DX lying on the shelf. Sigh.

Btw, 100.000 copies is not a success, unfortunately. That's 5 million dollars in TOTAL revenue, from which everything has to get paid. The retailer, the publisher, the shipper, the packaging, the developer, recoup the development cost etc. While DX didn't cost billions to develop (I think they said around 2-2.5 million bucks), they hardly made a dime on it.
Sadly again, the story was pretty much the same for both system shocks...

Creston

You hit the nail on the head. I worked at Eidos on Theif 1, was shipped to Boston to Looking Glass where they were also making System Shock 2 at the same time.

Eidos wanted to market Gangsters, which my friend was working on. I told marketing (All women, one gay guy, one asshole high up prick that drove porcshes, about 43, knew nothing of games and was porking the hottest marketing girl who was 23. What I am getting at here is that marketing had no clue what they were doing other than partying while we fucking slaved away!)

Uh hmm, I digress. I came back with the Gold copy of Thief and had for months said "Spend all your marketing dollars on Theif as this game is gonna be a hit!" The Gangsters team, who were my friends, came over and said in the meeting "Gangsters is terrible and will flop!"

What did Eidos do? Spent all their money on Gangsters, not one single page for Thief until after the game came out. Theif did sell well, by word of mouth.

Deus Ex had a bit more advertisement. System Shock 2 (EA) had zero advertisement.

So its not the games fault at all really. These games (SS2, Thief and DX) were all solid games that sold enough to make sequels. Imagine if they marketed them?

I equate it to MTV (which I hate). The only bands that "make it" are on MTV. Some suck too (Limp Bizkit) but because they are heavily advertised they seem bigger than they are and you want to jump on it.

Moral to the story:
No women in the game industry except at E3 and only if they are prostitutes and you want to let off steam.

Let QA and the developers choose what games to advertise.

" However you'd be hard pressed to find a PC gamer that has never heard of STALKER, so joke or not, that's good marketing."

The Marketing was horrible for STALKER so far. Good marketing is not flooding the web with interviews and articles and screens all showing the same info for YEARS.

STALKER is popular because of the very 1st vids released. And GAMER word of mouth because of those early vids. I dare say the game has changed from what those vids showed us that we would be getting. Now it looks more focussed on monsters and stuff.

Yes, some of the best PC games ever produced, had low sales figures. go figure.

Very little in GTA:SA was fun.


Good concepts, poor execution. Rather than put a few good, polished things in they tossed a ton of tedious things in. Girlfriends were idiotic and annoying. Even simply buying and/or changing clothes was a hassle due to a poor interface and enormous load times. You had little idea what you were trying on until you tried it on, and had to wait about 30 seconds just to see what it was, then another 10 just to take it off and get back to the menu.

Poor.

Don't even get me started on the hour or two I spent hitting "X" watching my whiny jackass run on a treadmill. Was that supposed to be "gameplay?"

Right now it still does, yes. Next year, it's not going to look at all great anymore. Especially not once the new consoles hit the market.

Bleh, I'm not concerned about the console side of things. If the game is fun, then graphically it can still be adequate.

It doesn't seem that ambitious to me really. It's almost like taking GTA:SA making it bigger, forcing a FPP and giving it a better AI and giving it a change of setting. GTA:SA worked fine, why not STALKER?

Um, I'd like to think the storyline behind STALKER is a fair bit more original than GTA: SA, for starters. GTA:SA impressed me with its size and amount of replayability, but most of it just wasn't that fun. It seemed rather bland to work your ass off to go on dates and get laid. Shit, I can do that in real life.

According to this site, Deus Ex sold approx. 500,000 copies. Based on this information, i'd consider this the 'fair share' i mentioned in an earlier post.

I was thinking it had to have sold a few more copies than just 98,000. I mean, the sales apparently warranted a sequel to it.

i said this would happen like 4 months ago

but i do think it will actually come out in 2006 - with a huge feature cut (more than have already been cut)

_________________________________
Who's gonna fight the system?!
You, me or fucking no-one?!

- Subhumans 1982

Please, forgive me Father for I am about to sin. I promised never to think, speak, or even type the dreaded "D" word again... oh, to hell with it! Blame it on Beelzebub!

I am trying to remember... besides DNF (before it totally dropping off the radar) and Diakatana, has any other game ever slipped this many times? And if so was it even worth buying when it finally released? None that I can remember.

We all know Diakatan sold approximately 150 copies and those were ION employees who where forced to purchase copies or become John Romero's bitch.

http://www.onlineconfessional.com/html/humor/Diakatana.html

http://rome.ro/games_daikatana.htm

My point is... even if they can pull off a finished product it will never live up to the hype and features list they created over two years ago. If I remember right (and correct me if I am wrong) they originally claimed Stalker: Oblivion Lost to be a Fall 2003 release.

Then the first slip to spring, then summer, then fall.. then 2005. All along the way features were dropping and hype was created... and even if it was fansite hype it still was marketing over-kill. They need to go under ground with it like DNF. And hope the backlash subsides before release day 2006.

There may be a few dozen people besides the suits and the developers that want to see the full glory of Stalker released more then I do... but in the end I think we will all be disappointed.

"Perhaps some actual news on the game would help people remember it's actually in development." [Creston on Bioshock]

And then you'd complain of vacuous press releases which say nothing new about an overhyped game. Can't have it both ways, Creston.

I'd also guess that 100.000-500.000 sold copies was quite a success at the time.

In the Abyss along with the SS developer, Looking Glass. Sadly, i might add. Bioshock is said to be its "spiritual successor" but very little has been revealed about it so far. But, like i said, games of its "type" are on their way, and not as far off as people might think. 2006 will be an interesting year indeed.

---------
Pandora Studios programmer
http://www.pandora-studios.com

Damn, where is System Shock 3?

According to this site, Deus Ex sold approx. 500,000 copies. Based on this information, i'd consider this the 'fair share' i mentioned in an earlier post.
http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=8655

Oddly enough the poster lists it as one of the top selling PC games of all time, although that was a year ago and is obviously no longer accurate. Any links to dispute this?


---------
Pandora Studios programmer
http://www.pandora-studios.com

No. Around 98000 copies (which was barely enough for Ion to break even on).
98000 copies!!!!! Of the best fucking game EVER MADE!!!

I've never heard those figures before ... but certainly for a game that won 35 GOTY awards (!) it did not sell well.

And now Looking Glass and Ion Storm are gone (admittedly Ion made mistakes with DX2, but imagine if they had a chance to learn from those). Irrational Games is maybe our best hope right now. Bioshock needs to sell. Like Ken Levine said when announcing it, emergence is the future.

But developers don't make those kind of games because, as well as not selling, they are difficult to make. It's hard for developers to make a game that caters for player freedom and experimentation, and also have strong narratives, like SS, DX and Thief do (this is why DX2 was an interesting experiment, but let's not get into that now :)). Much easier to make a totally linear shooter where the developers tightly control every occurance. Easier for them, unsatisfying for us.

Also someone mentioned that the game doesnt look good, but i think it looks more than adequate

Right now it still does, yes. Next year, it's not going to look at all great anymore. Especially not once the new consoles hit the market.

didn't the first deus ex sell pretty well?

No. Around 98000 copies (which was barely enough for Ion to break even on).
98000 copies!!!!! Of the best fucking game EVER MADE!!!



Creston

I'm still buying this game whenever it comes out, because it looks somewhat original, fun, and interesting. Loooks like it has tons of replayability too. I'd rather they take the time to do it right the first time, then fuck it up personally, even if it means delays, would hate to rush this baby out, it has a lot of potential if it's pulled off right.

It doesn't seem that ambitious to me really. It's almost like taking GTA:SA making it bigger, forcing a FPP and giving it a better AI and giving it a change of setting. GTA:SA worked fine, why not STALKER?

It's the AI that's the issue, I believe; from what I gather as well as the expected intelligent fighting behaviour (flanking, taking cover, all that rubbish), they're trying to get all the NPCs to function as if they were entities in an actual ecosystem; hunting, hiding, sleeping, etc.

AFAIK GTA:SA never had that sort of independent interaction between NPCs; they'd meet, travel about, but they wouldn't actually go and search out stuff to do, for example.

I'd imagine it's an absolute bastard to test a system designed to simulate individual interactions, because it's potentially completely unpredictable.

Your not alone. Why cant developers get it we want these type of games? I would love to see a SS3 or DE3, but if its a different IP and has the same game mechanics I'm all for it.

Some of us understand. Like i said, keep an eye out after E3.

And about them not selling well, that's not entirely true. System Shock 2 would have made a decent amount of money if it wasn't for the situation over at Looking Glass. Deus Ex likewise had a slow start but eventually made its fair share. It's not that these games weren't getting bought, it's that they weren't marketed in the way that, say, STALKER was. Can't really say is because now STALKER is becoming quite the industry joke. However you'd be hard pressed to find a PC gamer that has never heard of STALKER, so joke or not, that's good marketing. So the issue here is that someone needs to make a great game along those lines, with deep gameplay, a great story and memorable characters, and make sure that it is marketed correctly. Perhaps gamers will get lucky and someone will.

---------
Pandora Studios programmer
http://www.pandora-studios.com

Didn't the first Deus Ex sell pretty good?

I just watched all their videos on the website and it looks (purely from those videos) that basically everything is there. The got the day/night cycle, the anomolies, some enemies, vehicles, at least 3 weapons that i could see and a decentish AI. What else are they doing?

It doesn't seem that ambitious to me really. It's almost like taking GTA:SA making it bigger, forcing a FPP and giving it a better AI and giving it a change of setting. GTA:SA worked fine, why not STALKER?

Also someone mentioned that the game doesnt look good, but i think it looks more than adequate. You wouldnt expect a game that has 20sq miles (they claim its that innit?) of area to wander around in will look like D3/hl2, unless it was split into small sections just like D3 and HL2. But that would truely suck.

So that means you're buying it now, right?

Creston