Okay, you DID just say you think Valve would have at any time thought that Steam would totally and completely replace retail sales.

Like I said, if Valve is as greedy as they say, they wouldn't stop retail distribution solely because there still is, and always will be, money to be made off it.

...What?

Okay, I will be a little more clear. Valve developed Steam to bypass retail distribution of its games. If Valve now admits that it needs retail distribution (which it is effectively doing if that rumor is true), then that proves that Steam did not generate the sales and support from consumers that Valve wanted.

I've always thought that only the hard-core Valve fan would buy via Steam, and I bet that the vast majority of Half-Life 2 sales came from the retail channels. Valve's reversal would essentially confirm that or at least that the retail sales and resistance to Steam were substantial.

This comment was edited on May 5, 14:54.

...What?

Yeah, if Valve is as greedy as you say, they wouldn't be stupid and not sell their products in stores.

If Valve doesn't shun retail distribution after August 31, 2005 then that proves that Steam is less successful than it wants to admit. I hope that is the case, and so should all consumers including the Valve apologists.

This comment was edited on May 5, 04:40.

These bugs and incomplete elements were likely because VU put time pressure on Irrational to get the game done in time to ship for Christmas.

There is no excuse for shoddy workmanship. If there is a pressing deadline then you simply hire more people, farm out the work, or work longer to meet it.

Have you seen SWAT 4? I haven't found a bug yet.

Is there a dedicated server with the game? Do the editing or mod tools work? How does the multiplayer game perform?

If Sway 4 is more complete than Tribes Vengeance, that only goes to prove that Irrational should update Tribes Vengeance to be comparable now that it has improved the codebase.

I can guarantee you that if Irrational had any say in it, T:V would have been much better.

LOL! Irrational always had a say in the quality control of the game because it is the one who made it.

Now with Valve only distributing its games directly via Steam after August 31, 2005,

Actually, Doug Lombardi recently said this, according to a major Half-Life 2 fansite.

We are making arrangements to continue retail distribution of our products post August 31. Should have more details to share soon.

Yeah, if Valve is as greedy as you say, they wouldn't be stupid and not sell their products in stores.

If Irrational wanted to release a patch and VU said no, there was nothing they could do about it If they released it on their own, they would have been in breach of contract. I don't know how much Irrational bugged them to let them finish the patch, but I doubt they just threw up their hands and dropped the game as you say.

I doubt that Vivendi would have stopped Irrational from developing and releasing an update to the game. It has been done before by other developers. The problem is that Vivendi did not want to pay for the update, and Irrational is also unwilling to do it for free. However, Irrational deserves the blame because it is the one which developed a shoddy product to begin with.

What the hell? EVERYONE has a 'monopoly' on their own products.

I can't believe you are so obtuse. With games sold through normal retail channels, the stores compete against one another for the consumers' business. Therefore, prices for any particular game vary as stores undercut each other. That is why it is possible for consumers to buy a game at a retail store below the suggested retail price even at release.

Now with Valve only distributing its games directly via Steam after August 31, 2005, there will be no competition amongst sellers for its products. Therefore, with that retail competition is gone, the pressure and need to lower the price of Valve's games is greatly diminished.

This comment was edited on May 5, 04:27.

Are you about a size 14?

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Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers

Absolutely true. This is what I was alluding to when I said it made financial sense to kill the patch, but the business sense of it was another matter. What does this do to VU's reputation now that they have a history of killing products because of lack of profits? They really have a moral obligation to the community, no matter how small, to see the game finished. But, like I said, it's just a sad situation.

Certainly is. The thing though is that VU Games knows that whatever reputation damage is incurred from this patch situation makes no difference anyway. The next major AAA title that is marketed properly will be bought by everyone anyway. When people see a game that they really want (or are convinced they really want through advertising), they tend to forget all the crap pulled by the company in the past. VU knows they haven't really lost anyone by killing the patch. I've been saying for years that if gamers don't speak with their wallets, nothing will ever change. It's like the old addage about voting: If you don't vote, you don't have a right to complain about how the country is run.

Parallax Abstraction
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Founder of StateOfGaming.org
Commentary & Discussion About the Video Game Industry and Its Future
Coming Soon

People do have a right to demand that either their products are suported or they get their money back.

Absolutely true. This is what I was alluding to when I said it made financial sense to kill the patch, but the business sense of it was another matter. What does this do to VU's reputation now that they have a history of killing products because of lack of profits? They really have a moral obligation to the community, no matter how small, to see the game finished. But, like I said, it's just a sad situation.

It puts the lotion on its skin and puts it in the basket.

Oh, I thought the Warzone thing was a TGE only thing and Timothy Aste was an employee?

I never said Sierra, I said Dynamix.

What you said was cryptic, hence the "Huh?"

Mark, Tim, Rick all work at GarageGames which is in the same building as Bravetree (literally the next office over) where Clark, Joe, Etc Work.

I know, I've been there many times and know the staff in both parties well. The only hint at a FPS in Garage Games has been the TSE prototype demo (called Warzone) that Timothy Aste (and other talented GG interns) were working on. Joe, Clark, and company have been hard at work on dRacer and BoomBall. Weston has been pumping out topnotch (as always) content packs for the GG community.

_________________________________________________
F is for fire that burns down the whole town
U is for uranium bombs
N is for no survivors
...when you're having FUN!

[q]Huh? VUG founded Sierra? Sierra was founded by Ken and Roberta Williams, who later sold it (Cendant/Havas/Vivendi).[/q]

I never said Sierra, I said Dynamix. Sierra bought Dynamix, then Sierra was later sold to VU, which included Dynamix obviously.

[q]The majority of the core behind Tribes development are working for other companies (Garage Games, BraveTree, Eidetic, etc.) on other projects. Unless they got the entire original staff (Mark, Tim, Rick, Nels, Scott, Weston, Clark, etc.) back together, they will never capture what Tribes was. [/q]

Read between the lines and do some research. :-)
Mark, Tim, Rick all work at GarageGames which is in the same building as Bravetree (literally the next office over) where Clark, Joe, Etc Work. Weston still works with GarageGames all the time as a freelance contractor....... When I said the Original team, I [b]meant[/b] the original team. There are even rumors floating around TribalWar of a Bravetree aquisition by GarageGames, wether it has any truth or not, no one knows, but we'll know soon. GarageGames has stated repeatedly 2006 will be the year they get back into the games market as they've been itching to get away from being a tech vendor and back into games for a long long time.

The exception is exactly the point! With the publisher and retail distribution out of the picture, there will be no competition to acquire Valve's products like there is right now. If you want Half-Life 2 after August 31, 2005, you will have to pay whatever Valve is charging.

What the hell? EVERYONE has a 'monopoly' on their own products. The only difference now is that the 'monopoly' on their own products is controlled by Valve themselves instead of a publisher.

Bottom line is that a streamlined distribution system helps the developer, and lest you people forget, developers are the ones that make the games. They have the most passion for making and playing games. Publishers, while sometimes necessary, are not in and of themselves the driving force of the industry.

I like pie.

Pie rocks.

Parallax Abstraction
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Founder of StateOfGaming.org
Commentary & Discussion About the Video Game Industry and Its Future
Coming Soon

What message does this send to developers? That you are going to get reamed no matter if try to duplicate or innovate. Publishers like VU get the message too. It seems they did in this case. Was there problems with the game? Sure. Were there some rather radical changes in the style and gameplay? No doubt. But if you want Tribes 1 all over again, play Tribes 1. IMHO, T:V was murdered in the cradle before it ever had a shot.

You make a good point here and yes, I agree that many whining fans are causing PC developers to question why they bother, but I still fully believe that if you release a game, you have an obligation to support it for a certain length of time, profitable or not. To tell the people who did pay for your product that they don't matter because it didn't sell a certain number of units is ridiculous. People do have a right to demand that either their products are suported or they get their money back. That's where I fault VU Games. Sure, the community would largely bitch no matter what they did, but they still owed their paying customres a patch that was promised. Cancelling it doesn't help them any.

Parallax Abstraction
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Founder of StateOfGaming.org
Commentary & Discussion About the Video Game Industry and Its Future
Coming Soon

Prez, you said it perfectly. T:V never had a chance. It's a shame that it turned out this was because the game was excellent (both SP and MP). PC Gamers are far too critical and it's causing the demise of PC games all together. Just look at the history of Blue's comments... if you were to add up the negative coments compared to the positive it would be a 95 to 5 ratio. I love PC gaming and I try to find the good in all games (especially the games that are made for the PC only and not just simple ports) but the developers are dissapearing fast along with quality PC games in general. If the day ever comes that PC gaming dies out completely I will never game again, and I will blame all the cynical ones out there that helped seal it's doom by being unjust.

I like pie.