I like MIMORPG. That way, people who argue that it can't be a MMO because its not persistant can now shut up because of the I clearly indicates that its largly instanced.

Because IT is Massive, IT is Multiplayer and IT is Online. Nobody can not say GW doesn't have any of those features. But because it is largly instanced, it different from your traditional MMO's. So MIMO works great.

Kobalt: "GW is different from traditional MMORPGs, so it is not an MMORPG."

Gwen: "GW is different from traditional MMORPGs, but it still is an MMORPG."

Tyrfiel: "GW is different from traditional MMORPGs. I proclaim it 'delicious.'"

Kobalt: "NO! GW is different from traditional MMORPG's, so you must be a cocksucking retard!!"

lol

Kobalt: "GW is different from traditional MMORPGs, so it is not an MMORPG."

Gwen: "GW is different from traditional MMORPGs, but it still is an MMORPG."

Tyrfiel: "GW is different from traditional MMORPGs. I proclaim it 'delicious.'"

discussions I have read in a long time. MMORPG or not, who cares!? Guild wars is an online only game in which you can team up with friends and meet up with other players in towns to go on missions together or combat with. Parts of it are "persistant" such as your characters stats, and global storyline type things, and much of the game is NOT "persistant" such as any of the missions. Guild wars was not designed to replace everquest or world of warcraft. It's more along the line of diablo, although it takes a few cues from the mmorpg genre.

The mmorpg market of games only cater to a very narrow group of players, and a lot of people just dont like them or get bored of them too fast. This is an alternative. If you want to play a game where if you dont play 24 hours a day you may miss something important or get hopelessly behind your friends in skills, go ahead and play something else. If you want an online experience that tries to at least give each player a chance to have fun instead of making you work for it, this might be the game to try.

Come on. Debating genre? Reminds me of 10 years ago when everyone was arguing over zelda and final fantasy. Is zelda an rpg or an adventure? WHO CARES PLAY IT IF YOU LIKE IT, DONT IF YOU DONT!

If developers only made games to fit a strict definition of genre, we wouldnt have any story in our half life, we wouldnt have any dialogue in our grand theft auto, and we wouldnt have any masterpiece in our deus ex. Wake up and smell the possibilities.

This comment was edited on Apr 30, 17:57.

As for wikipedia, it's rubbish.

Aside from the fact it's a great forum for nutters and pseudoscientific morons to drool all over, FFS, the last time I looked at an article for genetic engineering safety (in reference to food) some dumb cunt had actually quoted Mae Won Ho proving that HIV was a CIA made virus from genetic engineering in 1953.

You challenged us to name one thing that is persistent in Guild Wars. At the close of every BWE, the devs sprang some sort of surprise on the players. Last month it was gift boxes full of gnomes, fireworks, and celebration. The month before it was an invasion of Gwen's that firebombed everyone while quoting Blade Runner. Those events happened simultaneously for everyong that was ONLINE. I missed one of those two events, so I have proof that they happened regardless of whether I (or anyone for that matter) was there or not.

Great, so there was a worldwide event in which the whole world experienced fireworks and gnomes falling from the sky in presents. I guess that makes Guild Wars a completely persistent title regardless of the fact that 100% of the game world isn't persistent with the exception of the BWE end event.

Let's lump Guild Wars in with all the other MMOs because it's an online game. Guess that would make CounterStrike and UT2004 MMOFPS. Lots of people playing it at the same time, after all - and as for persistent gameplay? Every time Valve releases a new update, everyone has to download it!

You challenged us to name one thing that is persistent in Guild Wars. At the close of every BWE, the devs sprang some sort of surprise on the players. Last month it was gift boxes full of gnomes, fireworks, and celebration. The month before it was an invasion of Gwen's that firebombed everyone while quoting Blade Runner. Those events happened simultaneously for everyong that was ONLINE. I missed one of those two events, so I have proof that they happened regardless of whether I (or anyone for that matter) was there or not.

The saddest thing about you is that underneath all the bluster and the incessant cursing (btw, I hear they have great treatments now for people with Turrettes syndrome) is that there is an actual intelligence there. A close-minded one to be sure, but you aren't stupid. You seem to think everyone ELSE is though. How sad. But not atypical. Let's reply to some of your "thoughts".

"Name one fucking thing that is persistant in gw. Does it have some mob that spawns once a day for everyone and other people are affected by this?? Does it have bases that anyone at any time could take, then the next day you could take and the other people have to?"

See but that's the sort of thinking that is holding the entire GENRE, and as such, the INDUSTRY back! Why are you trying to enforce your belief that just because something HAS been a certain way that it always MUST be that way?! Don't you see how that hampers developers from trying to create something unique and original? I mean, hey if a developer wants to create a new MMORPG what you are telling them is that you just want "more of the same"! What we're talking about is expanding the acceptance of the term MMORPG to include broader applications of the technology.

Look I pointed to the article in wikipedia because it is an encycolpedia that is created BY CONSENSUS of the general public. They PURPOSELY left their definiion of the term MMORPG vague, because if you pigeon-hole the genre, and you restrict the definition to include things like "it MUST have mobs that spawn once a day for everyone" then what kind of variety are you going to end up with? EVERY MMORPG WILL BE THE SAME! Guess what, that's already happening. You can't tell me WoW is revolutionary...it's simply a refined version of EQ with different graphics.

"Kobalt, who made your definition of MMORPG the official one?

Every single mmorpg on the market, from asheron's call to final fantasy 11"

I challenge you to name 5 SIGNIFICANT differences between all the games that you would consider to be an MMORPG.

"wtf are you talking about? Fucking everquest had it at release, guess thats recent huh?"

Sorry I was unclear on this point...Everquest has scripted AI that is MADE to look persistent. But it's not persistent on its own. There's a difference. Persistent AI as I was talking about it means that an AI doesn't follow the same routine every day. It means that the AI has a set of routines that it knows how to do and it does them on its OWN without involvement from anything. A good example of a game that showcased persistent AI was Black and White, or more recently Fable. It is persistent in that it acts just like you would expect a real person to act, albeit in a simplified manner...making its own decisions about where it wants to go and what it wants to do. In other words, at 12:00 PM an NPC might be working at his job one day, and taking a poop in the woods the next. The NPC has AI that functions on its own, not according to some hard-coded and scripted schedule. Yes, an NPC in EQ might be in the same place, doing the same thing every day, and that is a form of persistence...but not what I was meaning to convey, so sorry for confusing you on that issue.

"mmorpgs has "districts" of 2k+ while gw has 50. Real massive."

Even though I can only see 50 at a time in one district, there are thousands of players I can interact with at the click of one button. This is what I don't think you get. My friends list alone has 50 names on it, and no matter where they are in the game I can chat with them. Districts simply reduce the clutter and the noise of having to find the ONE person that you are looking for in a sea of thousands...but that doesn't change the fact that those players are all in the same game at the same time. Sorry you didn't like my analogy. As stated in other replies...how do you explin the other MMORPG's that shard their servers so that you can only play with thousands at a time. I mean, what isthe cut-off point, in a percentage form, before it becomes an MMORPG in your mind?

Well let's lowball and say that in order to be an MMORPG< you have to be on the same server at the same time, with say...10% of the total population? Then no MMORPG fits that definition...because if you take 10% of EQ's 450K subscriber base, that's 45K players at the same time. When you log into EQ, are you seeing those 45,000 other players? Even 1% is 4,500 players in one place at one time...how do you propose that this function?

"A better analogy is saying grand thef auto san andreas is a rpg because it has a few rpg elements. Retarded all the same."

How can you prove that it ISN'T an RPG? You play a role, you can advance your character and grow his stats, as well as change his appearance. You undertake quests that progress you in the game...why can't we call it an RPG? Because it's not a fantasy or sci-fi setting?!

Oh, and unlike others, I'm a patient man with nothing else to do at the moment, so you feel free to keep insulting and baiting me and I'll just keep playing along.

Kobalt, let me congratulate you for almost making it all the way through a post without resorting to childish, condescending remarks. Ruined it at the end, though. Your arguments are sound, but you have still failed to prove your point, only stated your opinion. I, unlike you, respect other peoples opinions, so I will leave it at this: I believe you are nit-picking and splitting hairs rather than looking at genre as simply a defining set of boundaries that guide gameplay mechanics and style. More important of an issue than this, however, is why you constantly need to put people down in the process of making your argument. Maybe it's time for some self-reflection. I will no longer be posting in this thread. See ya, later. No hard feelings, I hope.

By the way like the multiple references to me making you laugh, which you probably say in every debate/argument

Compensating perhaps?

"I'm acting so serious - I couldn't care less about the issue but it sure pisses you off" Baite

Example when I said I didnt care? Oh forgot your just talking out your ass as usual.

I'm going to go home in a few hours and enjoy GW, loving every instance momment.

Im about to play it in a minute myself, but whats your point?

Kobalt, who made your definition of MMORPG the official one?

Every single mmorpg on the market, from asheron's call to final fantasy 11

What genre would you call it?

Same one diablo and nwn is I would imagine

Why is every major gaming website (okay, except for IGN) referring to it as a MMORPG?

Mmorpgs is a nich market to say the least(though this is changing), and if you read reviews of mmorpgs usually they hardly know anything about the genre.

So, every gaming site/magazine thinks it's a mmorpg because they don't know much about the genre and anet said it was a mmorpg(anet is running a creative campaign, one sentence say its not a mmorpg so people dont flame them for false advertising, the next they say its a mmorpg with no monthly fee).

while all you have done is explain how it is an unconventional MMORPG

This argument is weak because it can be used anywhere. Im sure there are arguments calling action games with a little rpg element thrown in a "uncoventional" rpg. Still wrong though

All I know is that Arenanet set out to make something different from anything before it, and your argument proves that they have succeeded.

Well if it proved one thing, is that there are alot of retards on these forums

Kobalt, you make me laugh. I've never seen anybody whore over such a silly little topic before, you've gone past annoying troll to the Grand Master "I'm acting so serious - I couldn't care less about the issue but it sure pisses you off" Baiter. Thanks for the huge laugh.

I'm going to go home in a few hours and enjoy GW, loving every instance momment.

Kobalt, who made your definition of MMORPG the official one? Like stated earlier, GW is a 'new breed' of MMORPG. Your sounding more hysterical with each post. What genre would you call it? Why is every major gaming website (okay, except for IGN) referring to it as a MMORPG? Are you the only 'enlightened' one of the bunch? You keep asking us to prove why it is a MMORPG, while all you have done is explain how it is an unconventional MMORPG. If it makes you and Exitium happy, call it a puzzle game for all I care. Not the end of the world. All I know is that Arenanet set out to make something different from anything before it, and your argument proves that they have succeeded.

Its really ignorant to believe that a world needs to be persistant for it to be an MMO and with out persistants, its not.

Most retarded statment in this thread, grats

Guess thinking action games need action is ignorant too, so fucking dumb im not even going to go into this more.

Nit pick as you will, and i'm sure you will...

Listen asshole, dont post some shit from wikipedia and expect me to take it as gospal, what the fuck does that place have to do with our discussion. Diablo and nwn have been called mmorpgs? Ok what does that have to do with anything? Oh wow some retard said something dumb lets quote it as truth !

Saying GW is not a MMO is like saying a cat with only 3 legs and no tail is not a cat because its missing a few parts.

A better analogy is saying grand thef auto san andreas is a rpg because it has a few rpg elements. Retarded all the same.

World of Warcraft has instance dungeon such as Blackrock Depths or Scholomance. SO that must mean its not a MMO!!

No it's a mmorpg even though it has instancing because IT HAS NON INSTANCED AREAS YOU DUMB FUCK.

Its really ignorant to believe that a world needs to be persistant for it to be an MMO and with out persistants, its not. Unless you are the one who coined the term, I wouldn't argue with you, but since I'm 99.9*infin sure that you didn't not create the word MMO its all open for debate. And not all areas are created on the fly, all the hubs are persistant with persistant AI doing thier job regardless if people are there are not, so just because playing areas are instance and not persistant, can we easily toss the MMO title out the window disregarding the
hubs? The hubs sound like just any other town in any other MMO. People stay chat and AFK selling goods or resting, out in the killing fields mobs are killed and respawn. Doing nothing until somebody comes by to kill them. How much different is GW by not having those mobs in the first place until it needs to create them for an adventure? You don't know that they are there until you run up to it in any other "real" mmo.

From wikipedia.org:
The boundaries between multiplayer online games and MMOGs are not always clear or obvious. Neverwinter Nights (2002) and Diablo II are usually called online role-playing games (RPGs) but are also sometimes called MMORPGs (a type of MMOG). Guild Wars has been called an MMORPG, but most of its gameplay involves small groups of players in private areas. That game's developer prefers the term "competitive online role-playing game".

Even tho at heart is a CO-RPG, it has a lot of elements that make up MMORPGs. Saying GW is not a MMO is like saying a cat with only 3 legs and no tail is not a cat because its missing a few parts. Would it be more "correct" to call it a COMMORPG, sure, but it's not wrong to just call it a MMORPG in short. Its doubtfull that CORPG is going to catch on. MMORPG in short, means any rollplaying game that is done oneline with massive ammount of players. While the players may be massive (one total server-spanning across many zones), playing against is not as battles are limited in total to 64 max (8v^2) currently.

Nit pick as you will, and i'm sure you will...

BUT WAIT: World of Warcraft has instance dungeon such as Blackrock Depths or Scholomance. SO that must mean its not a MMO!! To your logic, that's the difference between a MMO and a non MMO. /sarcasm

DING-DING-DING!

wow grats on finnaly getting what everyone is talking about, only took you how many posts?

Does the game world exist for a long time or continuosly? YES
Does the game world continue without change in function or structure?
While it does change to reflect the player's activities, this is also true of other RPG's, especially MMO's. But on a larger scale, the game world does continue without a change in its basic function, so YES.
Does the game world continue to exist in spite of player interference?
YES

Uhh no dumbshit, how can you consider the fact that everything is created on the fly as in, as soon as your group leaves that area no long exists. How the fuck you consider that persistant is beyond me, thats no different then single player diablo, when you restart everything is the same.

Name one fucking thing that is persistant in gw. Does it have some mob that spawns once a day for everyone and other people are affected by this?? Does it have bases that anyone at any time could take, then the next day you could take and the other people have to?

But I don't think that persistent AI is a requirement for being an MMO, particularly since persistent AI is a rather recent phenomenon, and MMO's predate its use, which isn't even widespread at this time.

wtf are you talking about? Fucking everquest had it at release, guess thats recent huh?

So if you and I are both typing on these message boards right now, but I am here and you are wherever you live, that we're not online simultaneously?

What a shitty analogy, no if we have to do something like change servers(ie districts) to meet each other then no. mmorpgs has "districts" of 2k+ while gw has 50. Real massive.

It's so funny...you guys ask for facts to back up OUR claims that Guild Wars fits the definition of an MMO, and then when we do, all you can come back with are your own biased arguments and petty insults

You didn't back up shit, all you did is prove you still dont fucking get the concept of persistant and simultaneous.

We're talking about perceptions of not just what makes an MMOG fun, but what makes an MMO, period!

DING-DING-DING!

Because I am all fired up now...Guild Wars tag line is "The Revolution is Here"...and I think that we're seeing that play out here on these boards. We're talking about perceptions of not just what makes an MMOG fun, but what makes an MMOG, period! Like one poster tried to point out, but kind of got it backwards, it's like that time when the whole world believed that the world was flat. It took a visionary to see past "common knowledge" and think of the world in a different way.

This is exactly what you all are experiencing here with Guild Wars...it is challenging everyone's common perception of what an MMORPG is...well, like Columbus some us are able to see past our narrow perceptions of what an MMORPG "should be" and instead will expand the boundaries of the MMOG and we will look back at arguments like this and think "what were we, stupid?"...just like we do now at those people who used to think the world was flat.

This comment was edited on Apr 30, 01:50.

Welcome to the light-side, Gwen.