"liked both myself, especially Q3 instagib"
Uh huh... instagib = obvious lack of FPS skill. Where CS loses all its claim to skill is that you can run into the enmy spawn with a mac-10, fire shots sort of towards the group, and kill 3 people with headshots - bigtime skill there, eh? The skill FPS games should require, bar none, is aim - a game where what you aim at is not what you shoot isn't realistic, it isn't fun, and it doesn't require well refined skill. It requires a general ability to shoot in a general area and hope the probability calculations go your way. Actual FPS games, like Quake 3 for example, require you to know every weapon, how fast the projectiles go, to aim right at your target, and then require you to know where resources are. On top of that, if you are playing with a team, you then must coordinate team moves.

"I'm good at Poker but I suck at Blackjack, I guess that makes Blackjack the bottom of the barrel. "
No, it makes you an idiot. Blackjack is the easiest card game to play, both from a winning in a casino standpoint, and a beating your friends standpoint. If you can't figure out some blackjack strategy, you are an idiot, and a bottom of the barrel one at that.

" I can't dominate certain games (RTCW comes to mind, and guess what, that's "point and shoot""
Point and shoot? IF you are foolish enough to think that RTCW is point and shoot, you will never dominate RTCW. Again, this seems to point out that you are an idiot - want to dominate? Try playing it as a team game, focusing on your class's strengths - its that easy!

Jumping down someones throat for making a perfectly true statement (CS requires less skill than Quake 3, and most other FP games), is idiotic.

A big shout out to all you blueians who bash Doom 3's multiplayer, and are eagerly awaiting HL2s (cs:s). Real clever...

Doom 3: Old multi, new graphics - obviously crap

HL2: Old Multi, new graphics - YEAH YEAH YEAH, GIVE IT TO ME IN THE TRUNK OF YOUR GREMLIN RIGHT NOW VALVE!!! GIVE ME THE ENCHILADA WRAP STUFFED WITH PICKLE SAUCE SHOVED UP AND DOWN IN BETWEEN A DONKEYS ASS UNTIL HE CANT COME ANYMORE!! UNH UNH UNH UNH!!!

I can't wait to see splash damage's next game or whatever.



My computer specifications are so interesting I hope everyone likes them.

I never said CS doesn't require any skill. I just said that compared to games like Q3, UT and Tribes, it isn't very demanding. Thus, in terms of skill, CS is at the bottom of the barrel.

Oh I see, big difference. Please. Hey you know what? I'm good at Poker but I suck at Blackjack, I guess that makes Blackjack the bottom of the barrel.

And just for consistency, here's your quote: The game is easy to pick up and play. It doesn't require much skill (just point and shoot).

Not much skill, point and shoot huh? You obviously have no idea how clueless and bitter that line is. It's pretty obvious you tried to play and couldn't keep up, like so many others. Nothing wrong with that, I can't dominate certain games (RTCW comes to mind, and guess what, that's "point and shoot" too according to your stupid definition), but that doesn't mean I will await any opportunity to talk shit about said game.

I don't even know why I am discussing this with a proto-nazi idiot who says poor people should be exterminated. If that doesn't officially classify you as an inbred retard, I don't know what does.

Sepharo: I started out the day CS came out, with clan HG, later NHG (dominated east coast CS for a long time). Me along with the other top players from NHG (Ksharp, Bullseye and myself) joined CK3 where we became the dominant online US CS clan coast-to-coast. Later we were joined by rambo, riot squad's top player. CK3's top players, me included, left to form X3. Around this time moto came back to us from TSO. I stopped playing at this point, and a few months later X3 became today's Team 3D. So that's my CS clan story, since you asked.

ROFL. What a fucking newbie, CS requires no skill? heh heh....

I never said CS doesn't require any skill. I just said that compared to games like Q3, UT and Tribes, it isn't very demanding. Thus, in terms of skill, CS is at the bottom of the barrel.

Err I guess you forgot to mention it but what clan were you in again?

Furthermore, I scanned through the post you replied to and quoted, I couldn't find where he said CS takes no skill. And did your nameless clan try switching over to fatal1ty's games? If so how did you do? If Fatal1ty switched over and "had to settle" for a second tier clan that sounds pretty good to me. What tier did your nameless clan have to settle for when you switch to Q3?

In terms of online fps games, CS is simply the bottom of the barrel.

ROFL. What a fucking newbie, CS requires no skill? heh heh....
Nothing else to say, I'm sure anybody who knows anything about CS knows you are a bitter loser with no ability to play the game. I guess you probably got headshot one too many times before you knew what was going on. I just hope you don't start dissing Doom3 when you suck at it too.

It's funny when you talk about Q3 players vs CS players... these Q3 vs CS wars were fought endlessly for years by those of us who actually were there in the top clans when these games were hot (I liked both myself, especially Q3 instagib which was the closest thing to CS and at which I was very good). The funny part is remembering Fatal1ty, immortal, wombat and other Q3 players looking for extra competition back then, thinking they would easily dominate CS, playing private pick up games with us and barely able to keep up with everyone and having to settle for second tier clans. But I know you won't accept this fact so just carry on with your hate for a more popular game, no one cares.

What I want to know is why that Short Yellow Bus site has a pr0n pic on it.

Edit: Agreed with Hump I'd like to see a HL2 regular deathmatch, but I wouldn't bother with vehicles in every map. I am yet to see a deathmatch-style game that is better as a result of vehicles. BTW, Im not counting Joint Ops et al as straight deathmatch, neither is Onslaught mode in UT.
This comment was edited on Aug 12, 18:12.

Will CS:Source be the only multiplayer that ships with the game or will there be a regular HL2 multiplayer component as well?

I don't know why I keep having to say this...

To both sides of the argument we are debating/arguing about what takes more skill, any-game vs. CS. Anyone who says CS takes NO skill is obviously speaking out of their ass. It does take skill but I don't believe it takes more skill than say BF:1942, Q3, Tribes, UT2k3/4...

This discussion started as an intelligent comparison with good analogies and comments but now has turned into "Your game sucks" "No, your game sucks."

Please I love debates continue!


Added On: Oh and before anyone starts talking about first time experiences and public servers lets keep this between seasoned players, tournaments and overall the advanced players of the games being compared. I don't want "Oh, Q3 is so easy, I went to a public server and killed a guy with a machine gun because I kept jumping der der..."
This comment was edited on Aug 12, 12:33.

Honestly so many people that post here are so petty. Who cares if your beloved game isnt loved by others I love Doom3 I hope HL2 will warrant that same love. I hope CS:Source is a great game. I play these games for fun.

Shit I play spider solitaire sometimes. I build maps for SoF2, Q3, and am now working on Doom3. I used to build maps for CS what half a decade ago.

Why can't we all be winners when a game is good? Grow up, lose the petty bickering about what game is tougher. None of them are tough if you dedicate time to them and have some rudimentary hand-eye coordination.

Life is too short for this crap.

It does'nt take skill to sit on your ass all day long playing the same retarted map (de_dust) over and over and over.

It takes a fat computer geek with no life outside of playing the game or meeting up with friends who also play the game.

But as other posters have written: Anything that keeps these guys out of other games is a good thing.

So what does that make someone who sits on his ass and writes about how he's a superior person because he doesn't play Counter-Strike?

Seriously, I understand that the majority of the hardcore gaming community lost interest in CS long ago. The game is 5 years old. Why does that mean that game should be considered bad and needs to be pissed on at every chance?

Christ this reminds me of the middle school locker room.

Well said. Think of it like this: a good Quake or UT player decides (for some strange reason) to start playing CS. Chances are, he'll be a decent player at minimum.

Now, if a good CS player switches to Quake or UT, he'll most likely be horrible. I had a friend who used to play CS and was good. I dueled him on a Q3 map and I believe the final score was 20 to -3, in my favor. We tried to play Tribes, but he couldn't even ski, letalone hit me. In terms of online fps games, CS is simply the bottom of the barrel.

You have one anticdote to support your claim, I have one to support mine. For about a year I was totally in to TFC, it was the primary game I played. This was 99-00 so CS was making it's climb up the ladder and getting rave reviews and a great fan response. I of course downloaded the various betas and played them but would always go back to TFC. When I'd go back to TFC I'd pick up right where I left off and continue owning as a Medic and Soldier. Whenever a new CS beta would come out it'd be like starting all over again, I'd suck. It would take a week or so of practice before I'd feel proficient at the game, I'd simply get out of practice between betas. Skill takes practice to hone and maintain.

CS was amazing in the beta stages, as mentioned. It took actual teamwork, and yes, it definitely took skill at that time, although knowing to use the M4 with the sight up was part of that skill, haha.


It peaked when we were finally given knives, which never seemed that useful (even though in the version before we always ran out of ammo before everyone died).

CS is sort of like chess: a minute to learn, a lifetime to master.

Superbly put. Anyone that says CS doesn't require skill, hasn't _really_ played the game.

As far as skill goes in shooters it might be worth considering the transfer of the various skills . For example rocket jumping as a skill only really applies to games with rockets in it... My point is CS is popular because it relies on some pretty generic skills, aim with hitscan weapons, team communication and knowing the level - it doesn't have much more to it than that, games like tribes / desert combat are much more specialised, being an ace dc chopper pilot won't help you to ski.

Go to "Browse Games" and click on "Register Product I Already Own" I'd wager.

Just be careful about rubbing off the silver stuff on hte ATI voucher.. apparently there's been cases of people rubbing the numbers off as well :d

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

Anyone who says that CS needs no skill obviously hasn't played in any ladders at a high level - the tactics require timing, coordination, individual talent -- how else do you define skill?

My question is - how do you tell steam that you have an ati/hl2 coupon, so you can start preloading on the 16th (or whenever it is)?!

jeez alot of cs hostility here. why can't it just be that cs is a different type of game?

seems like alot of people here are still angry at getting killed in some past cs match and can't let it go.

sure I criticize parts of it too, mainly the cheaters and the 12yr olds who steal $5 from their mom's purse so they can be an "admin" for a month, but cs is overall a solid game and its popularity bears that out.

CS was good up to 0.5 or so.

I liked it best when it was just an idea in the developer's head, anything past version .000000001 sucked major ass.

Dude, I liked it best when it was, like, version -1.6x10^23. I'm fucking awesome.

CS was good up to 0.5 or so.

I liked it best when it was just an idea in the developer's head, anything past version .000000001 sucked major ass.


This comment was edited on Aug 12, 07:59.

Re 30:
" have to agree with Halsy on this: Counter-Strike is a skill intensive game"


Skill? CS?.. R O F L

Skill != CS

It does'nt take skill to sit on your ass all day long playing the same retarted map (de_dust) over and over and over.

It takes a fat computer geek with no life outside of playing the game or meeting up with friends who also play the game.

But as other posters have written: Anything that keeps these guys out of other games is a good thing.