Even this is changing, a few publishers including Microsoft, NovaLogic, EA, and Ubisoft are giving their games along with licenese free to gaming centers to help promote themselves. Meanwhile Valve requires a unique purchase of each product and monthly licensing fees.

The Valve license includes all of Valve's games. They don't require them to make a purchase of, say, half-life 2 if they are in the cyber cafe program. It's included as part of their monthly fee. That fact alone will cut down what they see as "exorbant fees" because a $50 HL2 purchase is roughly 3 months of fees. When TF2 comes out (yes, haha i know, but they have said that they blacked out the news about it because it went to source) than that will also be given as part of their monthly fee.

It’s just unfortunate that most other devs and publishers realize that game centers are good for the game industry. It’s truly the next big thing in gaming.

People have been saying that for years. I really doubt that it's true.

This comment was edited on Aug 18, 13:55.

Those new amendments that you cited from the copyright law have not taken hold just yet. They have not been argued in court. These laws are continuing to be written.

That’s one reason why Valve is “testing the waters” per say. They see some sort of BS loophole and decided to go after the game center industry. BUT, the courts have held rulings for these types of lawsuits in favor of the rental markets due to companies trying to limit the access to media and technology. Btw, these copyright ruling have taken precedence over EULAs.

There is no doubt that the first sales doctrine is very old and needs updating. The thing is, where does the law draw the line between access to technology (i.e. rental of computers, not software) and who really controls ownership and access to software and additional licensing fees? This is especially important if these fees are “unreasonable”, which pretty much everyone has deemed true in the game center industry.

Another thing, is Valve’s game center program unfair/unreasonable to the consumer, thus limiting the access to technology such as game engines and important software architecture? That’s an interesting issue in itself.

I fully realize that Valve probably sees some sort of legal loophole in this law and is willing to pursue it, thus they hired the big legal team and decided to going after the vulnerable mom and pop game centers.

It’s just unfortunate that most other devs and publishers realize that game centers are good for the game industry. It’s truly the next big thing in gaming.

This comment was edited on Aug 17, 19:45.

A EULA has never been proven as legally binding in a court of law.

I will think peaceful, happy thoughts about getting my new video card RMA'd.

You guys are still wrong about the game center industry and Valve’s legal posturing AGAINST YOUR RIGHTS TO OWN AND DISSENINATE SOFTWARE THAT YOU PURCHASE. If you want to be blind, that is your own choice, but if you want to be informed, then read on…

Well, I read it, but you're still wrong. From the very same section that you mentioned, there is specific mention of computer software

Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), unless authorized by the owners of copyright in the sound recording or the owner of copyright in a computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program), and in the case of a sound recording in the musical works embodied therein, neither the owner of a particular phonorecord nor any person in possession of a particular copy of a computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program), may, for the purposes of direct or indirect commercial advantage, dispose of, or authorize the disposal of, the possession of that phonorecord or computer program (including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program) by rental, lease, or lending, or by any other act or practice in the nature of rental, lease, or lending. Nothing in the preceding sentence shall apply to the rental, lease, or lending of a phonorecord for nonprofit purposes by a nonprofit library or nonprofit educational institution. The transfer of possession of a lawfully made copy of a computer program by a nonprofit educational institution to another nonprofit educational institution or to faculty, staff, and students does not constitute rental, lease, or lending for direct or indirect commercial purposes under this subsection.

Gaming centers are not NPOs and therefore cannot rent computer software without authorization from the developer. And here is a little bit about video rentals.

By law, as well as by intent, the pre-recorded videocassettes and DVDs ("Videos") which are available in stores throughout the United States are for home use only -- unless you have a license to show them elsewhere.

Rentals or purchases of Videos do not carry with them licenses for non-home showings. Before you can legally engage in non-home showings, you must have a separate license which specifically authorizes such use.

These simple, straightforward rules are embodied in the federal Copyright Act, as amended, Title 17 of the United States Code. Any institution, organization, company or individual wishing to engage in non-home showings of Videos should be aware of the Copyright Act's provisions governing the showing of Videos, which are highlighted below. The Copyright Act grants to the copyright owner the exclusive right, among others, "to perform the copyrighted work publicly." (Section 106)

Showings of Videos without a license, when one is required, are infringements of copyright. If done "willfully and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain," they are a federal crime and subject to a $150,000 penalty per exhibition(Section 506). In addition, even innocent or inadvertent infringers are subject to substantial civil damages ($750 to $30,000 for each illegal showing) and other penalties. (Sections 502-505)

So, to sum up, gaming centers are seeking financial gain by renting copies of computer software for non-home use. How many more laws should be broken before Valve has a right to intervene?

Blind blind people. You are so ignorant. I will show you the way.

You guys are still wrong about the game center industry and Valve’s legal posturing AGAINST YOUR RIGHTS TO OWN AND DISSENINATE SOFTWARE THAT YOU PURCHASE. If you want to be blind, that is your own choice, but if you want to be informed, then read on….

It is perfectly legal for a game center or individual (YOU) to rent or lease time AFTER you purchase software. Its covered by the copyright laws, TITLE 17 , CHAPTER 1 , Sec. 109 to be exact. It’s called the "first sale doctrine". This was created to protect YOUR RIGHTS!!!! This supersedes EULAs!

Summary of the first sales doctrine........

For at least ninety-five years, the first sale doctrine in U.S. copyright law has allowed those who buy copies of a copyrighted work to resell, rent, or lend those copies. Copyright law is often viewed as a balance of providing authors with sufficient incentives to create their works and maximizing public access to those works.1 And the first sale doctrine has been a major bulwark in providing public access by facilitating the existence of used book and record stores, video rental stores, and, perhaps most significantly, public libraries.

3. Rental Markets
The first sale doctrine, in markets in which works are distributed in tangible copies, also increases access to works by enabling the creation of rental markets for those who wish to have access to a work but are unwilling or unable to pay the price charged to acquire ownership of a copy, either new or used.36 Today, motion pictures are the principal category of works widely disseminated by rental.37 Rental stores buy digital versatile discs (DVDs) and videocassettes sold by the copyright owner and exercise their first sale rights to rent the copies to the public.38 A consumer who does not want to pay the price of buying a [*PG588]video of the film—or perhaps even the price of admission to a cinema to see a screening of the film—can usually pay a lower price to rent a copy of the film for a short time in order to view it.39 Although motion pictures are the main types of works distributed by rental today, other types, such as literary works, have been distributed by rental in the past.40


http://www.bc.edu/schools/law/lawreviews/meta-elements/journals/bclawr/44_2/09_TXT.htm

This comment was edited on Aug 16, 23:10.

Here's a loophole for ya. Don't charge them to play the game, that parts free. Charge them to rent the computer from you. There you go, problem solved.

"And btw sepharo, why don't you just boycott the entire film industry since they won't allow you to buy a DVD and then charge people to come see it? There is no line between this situation and the one with Valve and the gaming centers...not even a fine one."

We do boycott the entire film and game industry by pirating the ever living shit out of their shit. When some company invents the star trek replicator they will crack down on a guy who has one in africa creating food for starving people there without paying a licensing fee!

Game centers shouldn't even buy the games, they should pirate them. You know in the middle ages paying for the game then paying for the right to use the game further would be illegal, for the same reasoning as charging interest would be illegal. Thus the only game developers would be jews.

Thats like saying my 50 friends cant play the game at my house.

No no no. You can have as many people over to play Half-Life as you want, but you cannot charge them to do so. That's making money off of someone else's product...you can't do it with movies and Valve doesn't want you to do it with their games. There is a big difference between letting someone use something and charging them for using it.

When they bought the game from the store they own it.

Wrong again pal. When you buy the game from the store you do not own the game. You own the right to use it. Gaming centers are mad because they cannot charge people to play games that they don't even own without paying a fee? Well cry me a fucking river.

And btw sepharo, why don't you just boycott the entire film industry since they won't allow you to buy a DVD and then charge people to come see it? There is no line between this situation and the one with Valve and the gaming centers...not even a fine one. And stop going to sporting events since they won't let you scalp tickets legally. Pay someone licensing fees in order to make money off of their product? That's outrageous!

This comment was edited on Aug 16, 02:25.

Dude what the fuck. When they bought the game from the store they own it. Why the hell should they pay someone more ? The game they bought stays on one computer, it isnt like 50 people are playing on one copy at the same time.Thats like saying my 50 friends cant play the game at my house. Fuck that greedy ass shit.

What makes you think Valve is better then EA or anyone else?

ARggggg!

"My enemy's enemy...is....my friend?"
One of the many jewels from AvP.

Here are the centers resgistered with iGAMES.

http://www.igames.org/FindCenter.asp

Just simply go to the find center drop down in the top left corner and click a state. Just for reference I count 22 in Illinois, 18 in Michigan and 80 in California. Also in the least populated state in the country, Wyoming, I count 5 gaming centers registered with iGames. Remember that in the past all these LAN centers had to do to keep the developers and publishers off their backs was buy a copy of each game for each computer[*]. Imagine how many unique HL cd-keys have been purchased for these thousands of LAN centers across the U.S. and world. Now imagine being an owner and after paying for this game that is now 6 years old being asked by the developer to pay a monthly fee based on how many and how often the game is played at your location. It is ridiculous. I could understand maybe, just maybe, if a game was coming out brand spanking new and the developer/publisher requested that LAN centers pay a monthly fee to allow access to the game. That might make a little sense. But for a game that's 6 years old. Sounds like Valve is trying to suck the profits out of gaming centers that helped establish their game as the most played, most competed [tourny's and such] in the first place.


http://www.igames.org/Top20.asp Watch it fall day by day after ruling for 6 years. Good job Valve as you help kill your game. Better get the newest iteration of it out quick before you disappear from stupidity.


* Even this is changing, a few publishers including Microsoft, NovaLogic, EA, and Ubisoft are giving their games along with licenese free to gaming centers to help promote themselves. Meanwhile Valve requires a unique purchase of each product and monthly licensing fees.
This comment was edited on Aug 15, 00:29.

Hey! If it only affects my small circle of friends why would Valve care so much? Obviously these 'unheard' of gaming centers must earn some huge profits or I doubt valve would give a flying fuck whether my small circle of friends played their game. Congratulations on inadvertently furthering my point that game centers are popular and well known.

Don't be stupid. The RIAA has prosecuted pre-teens who have uploaded less than 20 songs (I'm sure those people were real threats to the music industry). It's not about Valve wanting to get their share of some huge business (gaming centers are not big business...prove me wrong), it's about Valve not wanting people to make money off of THEIR PROPERTY without paying licensing fees and making an example of those who try to do so.

Also as pointed out earlier you don't see huge companies like EA and Microsoft doing what Valve is doing because they realize that game centers are GOOD for their buisness. They help spread word of their games and cause them to be even more popular.

No, they just don't give a flying fuck like most of us. Gaming centers are small business and companies like MS and EA have bigger fish to fry. Valve is about to produce it's (count em with me now) second game. I think they have a vested interest into how people use the only game they have ever made.

And still, after all of these posts, and all of this whining, you have not yet shown why Valve is doing something terrible and unfair. If I go buy a DVD, rent out a theater, and then charge 200 people $3 to see the movie, then unless I have permission from the people who made the DVD, it is illegal. It's sortof the same as why scalping tickets is illegal. You cannot make money off of someone else's property without going through the proper channels. Just because Valve is using a common-sense business practice that myriad companies in other industries have used, it doesn't mean they're evil. Consider yourself and all those tens (or according to you millions) of gaming center owners to have been extremely lucky so far that game developers have looked the other way. The free ride ends here. Go cry to the other 12 people in Michigan who play at gaming centers.

Like it was pointed out earlier in the thread, gaming centers are for being social. Just like a coffee shop, people come to talk and be with friends. Yes most people at a coffee shop have coffee machines and are just fine with drinking coffee at their homes alone but sometimes they want to get together with friends or meet new acquaintances and this can be done at the coffee shop. A gaming center is extremely similar. But this doesn't exclude it from being used by people with no PC's either. I find a lot of the time people coming into the LAN centers I play at come because they have no computer or want to test out a game that won't play on their computer. I come for the atmosphere and to play with friends.

The most idiotic point in your response would have to be this gem of a line:

"Valve is doing a legit thing AND it affects virtually nobody outside of your small circle of friends."

Hey! If it only affects my small circle of friends why would Valve care so much? Obviously these 'unheard' of gaming centers must earn some huge profits or I doubt valve would give a flying fuck whether my small circle of friends played their game. Congratulations on inadvertently furthering my point that game centers are popular and well known. So popular that a game DEVELOPER decided it wanted a share of the profits. Also as pointed out earlier you don't see huge companies like EA and Microsoft doing what Valve is doing because they realize that game centers are GOOD for their buisness. They help spread word of their games and cause them to be even more popular. Now that many game centers cannot afford to keep half-life and it's mods [a 6 year old game] that proportional ammount of customers will not be able to enjoy a game of Counter-Strike or Half-life mod.

Oh boo-hoo. Valve is not going to let Lan Centers make money off of Valve's own work? What bastards!

This comment was edited on Oct 19, 2024, 06:04.

These list are nowhere even near complete either!

Well, I should hope not. Between the two lists there are exactly ONE 'game center' listed in Toronto and Chicago respectively.

I don't even live in those areas and just so happens I have been to LAN centers in both.

Again, your experience is very, very atypical. Btw, do you own a computer or just go around paying to use other people's computers?

First off, you still have not proven why Valve is so evil for wanting licensing fees from third parties who charge to play their games. As someone already said, it's no different from movies.
And cyber cafes are not the same thing. I have been to several and no one there is playing games. The computer are for websurfing only. Valve is doing a legit thing AND it affects virtually nobody outside of your small circle of friends.

"If you're here to play a game, who's name in unmentionable here, IT is no longer available. We refuse to pay blood sucking leeches our tiny profits, that we make while entertaining you our customer, to offer a 6 year old game. If you wish to play a 6 year old game, we suggest to you that it is time to move on. Play any game other than IT and receive a free hour for being open minded."

How can they play IT if it is no longer available? And that sign definately doesn't make the owner of said 'gaming center' come off as petty and cheap...

desires why is talking about desires?, if you read what I typed you will see you just made that up. Fucking idiot

Wow you really are the dumbest person on the planet arent you?
"desires" was a grammar error that I never noticed, an aberration. Instead of "deserves" because it came after "excessive"...but you are too stupid to put 2 and 2 to together arent you?
Making shit up? I took it from your pathetic copy and paste of dictionary.com.

You must be a Rebublican, and severly hate ther poor.

Another self-righteous uneducated American that assumes everyone on the internet is from the USA. Please explain to us what being Republican, or Democrat, or any other political alignment has fuck all to do with your blatant stupidity of the basics of business. You need some serious life experience. Maybe one day you will stop sucking on your momma's tit and join the rest of us in the real world.

Tell me do you actually speak like that, or do you limit your use of early 90's sayings to internet threads?

You can't actually be serious about this...you just proved to everyone that you are some snot nosed, pimple faced little boy sitting in his mom's basement.

I suppose if I tell you to "get real man", you will attempt to insult me by pointing out that its a term commonly associated with the 1970's?


This comment was edited on Aug 13, 07:09.

You must be a Rebublican, and severly hate ther poor.

Whoa there, I'm Republican and I don't hate the poor. I just think they should be exterminated. Nothing but parasites. >=|

As for game centers, the only reason I can see to actually go to them is if you have a really crappy system or a really crappy internet connection. Of all the LAN places I've been, I've only seen a bunch of 12-year-olds playing CS. Now, if LAN centers were filled with good players playing Tribes, I'd be much more inclined to go. Well, no, not really.


This comment was edited on Aug 13, 05:47.

Holy god, get outside son! You lived in Chicago and Toronto and never heard of or seen a gaming center... I don't even live in those areas and just so happens I have been to LAN centers in both. Open your fucking eyes! I am sorry for the harsh language but this is the most vain post I have ever read.

http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Internet/Cybercafes/Gaming/

http://www.lanparty.com/centers/

These list are nowhere even near complete either!. Hell, even the site I write for www.detroitgamers.com has a list of LAN centers in the Detroit area alone. About 12 that we know of. It totally blows my mind that you could be oblivious to LAN/Gaming Centers. They have been big news topics, what with the gaming center related murders in Seattle Washington and other topics. Does the word CyberCafe ring a bell? Most gaming centers are also considered cybercafes, and vice-versa.

To address the other topic about Valve charging and suing lan centers; my local lan center in Ann Arbor, Michigan that I have been frequenting for 6 years now just recently put up a sign saying something to this effect...

"If you're here to play a game, who's name in unmentionable here, IT is no longer available. We refuse to pay blood sucking leeches our tiny profits, that we make while entertaining you our customer, to offer a 6 year old game. If you wish to play a 6 year old game, we suggest to you that it is time to move on. Play any game other than IT and receive a free hour for being open minded."

Your a fucking idiot

"excessive...needs and desires"

desires why is talking about desires?, if you read what I typed you will see you just made that up. Fucking idiot.

These people have spent years of their lives working on something and they deserve to be payed for it. You are the type of person that whines and bitches about others wealth and success because you are too much of a failure to have it yourself.

You must be a Rebublican, and severly hate ther poor.

Get a fucking life pal.

Tell me do you actually speak like that, or do you limit your use of early 90's sayings to internet threads?

Jackasses like you bitched and complained when the first games started to require online serial authentication to play multiplayer. This is just another step forward.

nope, sorry and btw you are the one bitching, and its fitting.