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DOOM 3 - Client/Server Yes, DVD No

The Union Aerospace Corporation Website now offers a countdown timer to the release of DOOM 3 (thanks Shacknews). Also, Will Doom 3 revive the struggling PC gaming industry? on CNN Money has word from id's Todd Hollenshead that DOOM 3 will ship on CD only: "I know some gamers are hoping to use the DVD players on their machines for something other than watching movies, but there are downsides. For us the cost of the goods and the cost of the replication and having to make two masters just isn't worth it." Also, with the game going gold, discussion of what DOOM 3 multiplayer will be like have kicked into high gear. UKGamer wrote Todd, id's CEO, about the announced plan to offer peer-to-peer network support, receiving the following reassurance:

Multiplayer is client-server.

93 Replies. 5 pages. Viewing page 1.
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93. Re: no dvd Aug 22, 2004, 22:52 FRAGaLOT
I don't think price has anyhting to do with why barely any PC games are shipped on DVD. All console games are on DVDs, even GameCube system go as far as using custom mini DVDs so it's harder to copy them. Game makers don't really care how much it costs to mass produce thier games since that's all paid at once, per batch.

What pisses me off is that Doom 3 cost $60 for three pressed CDs. Unreal Tournament 2004 was 6 CDs (or 2 DVDs) for 30% less, and it's a more enjoyable game! Plus I got my $10 rebate from Atari a couple weeks ago! You'd think I'd get something more out of a $60 game than 3 old CDs. Not even a metal box, or anything.

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92. Re: no dvd Jul 23, 2004, 22:45 Corn Wizard
it's on 3 cd's bitches

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91. Re: No Subject Jul 19, 2004, 19:29 Ronin
If the DOOM 3 Music thread gets 18 more posts, and this one gets about 9 more posts, DOOM 3 will occupy 5 of the 6 positions on the Popular Threads bar...with 4, I think its already a record.

"Don't Fear the Reaper, fear ME."
Retarded Monkeys is looking for 3D there's no pay, but you get credit!
"Don't Fear the Reaper, fear ME."
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90. Re: no dvd Jul 19, 2004, 02:06 ebob9
NM, oopsie

This comment was edited on Jul 19, 02:08.
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89. Re: no dvd Jul 18, 2004, 20:24 daSmirnov
A story a couple of days ago on had it as 3 or 4 CDs.

I know at least last year when I was involved with a project the cost of releasing on a single DVD compared to a single CD was 7 fold. Obviously that was a year ago so things can change.

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88. There's light ahead. Jul 18, 2004, 15:02 Rockn-Roll
We will have to see what is in the game after the game comes out and we can see for ourselves. But, I do believe I remember id throwing something together quickly just to get the p2p working solely for demonstration.

I've been closely following first person gaming since Quake came out, and even spoken with ToddH and exchanged emails when I was running the old deathmatch database on PlanetQuake back in the late 90's, to the extent that I was selected to post the review of Quake2:Ground Zero that made the front page of was my 15 minutes of fame...probably the only that I've ever get...if you want to ask why I mention it.

ToddH is the CEO, and as such he directs where the company resources would be best deployed, and what projects should be produced. Of course since Doom3 is actually being boxed up for shipment, we know that John Carmack and the other veteran id members can influence Todd's direction. Also, ToddH and Carmack seemed to have agreed that the focus on Doom3 would be the first person game...John said as much in the interview we saw yesterday. This is indeed the exact same process that John used in the original development of Doom. The interview also revealed that the current focus of idsoftware is on multiplayer Doom3, just like what happened with the original Doom (though I'm usure whether they did a second episode before adding multiplayer).

The point I'm making is that no matter what MP aspect is in the game that ships, it is definitely NOT the MP Doom3 game, but just the code leftover from Quakecon. Do you really think that idsoftware would just make a 4 player MP game?

Another thing to contemplate is that after MP Doom3 is released ToddH is going to move id into the project that he wanted to do before work on Doom3 began. Nobody knows what that project is yet, but any sequels to Doom3, such as mission packs, mods, etc. will be generated by other people. I figured that Rogue Entertainment would want to do a mission pack, but they have virtually disappeared! Apparently United Developers bought Rogue and then killed it to collect on the estate. I have not heard anyone stepping up to claim any work on a mission pack, but who knows? Blue? I see that RavenSoft who developed Hexen2 is working on Quake4 if you can believe that, so instead of a Doom3 mission pack we may see a title named Quake4 backed by the Doom3 engine...sweeet!
Avatar 21182
Let's Rock!
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87. Re: no dvd Jul 18, 2004, 12:18 RegularX
Yes. But how many CDs is Doom shipping on?

2? Well, that would @ $1.60 to $0.80
3? $1.60 to $1.20 ...

not nearly as cheap with multiple CD's.

The media, I doubt, is the issue. Media is cheap - really, really cheap, at their kind of bulk. It's the cost of creating two master images, dual installs, etc. It's the stuff around the blank media that probably is the cost inhibitor.

I still am disappointed that id is lowballing the PC crowd.

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86. no dvd Jul 18, 2004, 08:57 Tkmaster
usually you dont do the price by the storage
you do the price by the amount of disks you recieve

you cannot buy a blank dvd with only half the storage that they normally come with

price per dvd = $1.60
prive per cdr = $0.40

Thats the prices that counts
not the price per mb

price per mb counts when it comes to hard drives

yes i know that buying cdrs or dvdrs isnt exactly the same but
it would still be more expensive, they may get their discs slightly cheaper than a normal user but they still have to pay for their materials that they need
and dvds are still more expensive than cds
even to companies

This comment was edited on Jul 18, 09:01.
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85. Re: no dvd Jul 18, 2004, 02:31 .Drifter
Uh, a blank DVD you buy for your burner is not the same price as the DVD they use in retail DVD releases. That's comparing apples to oranges.
But lets say for a second we use your CD-R to DVD-R comparison. Using pricing from Circuit City, and I'll admit my math might be a little off.
TDK 50 pack CD-R 19.99
TDK 50 pack DVD-R 79.99
Big difference in price.
Total MB for CD-R: 35000MB
Total MB for DVD-R: 240640MB
Cost per MB for CD-R: 0.00057 cents
Cost per MB for DVD-R: 0.00033 cents

So, if my math's right, and I admit it might not be, the DVD is the cheaper storage format.

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84. no dvd Jul 17, 2004, 21:21 Tkmaster
Can you stop posting that all over...

No one cares as that website is not going to change anything

it does not do anything that it claims...

and dont go blaming doom for the columbine shootings... as the courts has already stated that the game cannot be held responsible for what happend... if anything or anyone was responsibel its the parents!!!!

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83. Re: That sure does suck Jul 17, 2004, 16:20 Hermy

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82. no dvd Jul 17, 2004, 09:24 Tkmaster
actually it is more expensive to manufacture dvds

so i really didnt make an assumption on that part

look at how much a blank cd costs and how much a blank dvd costs

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81. Re: no dvd Jul 17, 2004, 01:13 .Drifter
Oh, and a bit of irony, the Xbox version will be DVD. Unless they put it on several CD's too, hehe.

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80. Re: no dvd Jul 17, 2004, 01:09 .Drifter
I have the specs to run Doom 3, and I do not have a CD drive in my system, only DVD.
Oh, and saying it's cheaper to release the game on CD is a blatant assumption. He never said it was cheaper, just that the cost of 2 masters wasn't worth it. This could mean that while DVD is cheaper, that to make a DVD and CD copy both at the same time, that the combined costs would be more. Or could potentially eat into their profits, and heaven knows just how important profits are to companies.
Don't make assumptions.

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79. no dvd Jul 16, 2004, 21:50 Tkmaster
Ok i actuallt understand why id made that decision

They just didnt see that it is viable to release the game on dvd and cd..

it is cheaper to release the game on cd than dvd...
and to them its one or the other...

and with that said cd was the only true option...
seeing not everyone has a dvdrom...

and the person who said
"Everyone who has the specs to run doom 3 has a dvd-rom"
that is a blatent assumption...

I have the specs that could run doom 3 reasonably well
and i Do NOT have a dvd-rom

and im sure there are people out there with specs that could run doom 3 also does not have a dvd-rom

so id chose cds most likly is that it is the medium that ensures everyone who can play doom 3 can play it

where dvd not everyone can unless they buy a dvd rom

and for those who say they dont want to keep putting in the cd in the drive.... there is what you call no-cd patch..
even if it was a dvd you would still have to put the disc in the drive because it is actually a requirement that the publishers give the developers if the publisher is to release it

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78. Re: Huh? Jul 16, 2004, 16:26 RegularX
Running out of DVDs is what most people would call a "good" problem.

The reasons are simple. 6 CDs to 1 DVD is 5 more chances of something getting scratched, broken, lost, etc. It's 5 more things someone has to find a place to store. It's an inconvience to gamers and it's getting to be an archaic one at that. Id's excuse breaks down to one thing - they wanted to save money, which - sure, that's their business, but seems a pretty weak argument for a title of this caliber.

Id's usually the one leading this kinda stuff, so it's annoying to see them take the cheap way out.

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77. Re: Huh? Jul 16, 2004, 16:01 dr foxy
UT2K4 as previously mentioned did *not* succesfully market analyse, as highlighted by the fast selling out of DVD copies and the delay before they managed to catch up with the manufacturing. I'll admit it's not like the iD of old who made us all by 3D cards and network cards back in the day but I still don't see that being a reason to criticise them. It's like all these people who *expect* Valve to keep supplying them with free content for Half Life for the rest of their lives because of how commendably they've supported Half Life.

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76. Re: Huh? Jul 16, 2004, 12:24 RegularX
I think most of us aren't confusing that. You just do two market analysis and make productions accordingly. As mentioned, UT2004 did this very successfully.

I'll agree it's not cause to pass up the game, but I'm pretty surprised at id's stance on it. They're usually a little more forward thinking than to force the lowest common denominator on people like this.

As for modding, my guess is that Doom III will resemble Q3 - a handful of decent TC's and a good number of gameplay addition/tweak style mods (which have always been some of my faves)

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75. Re: Huh? Jul 16, 2004, 12:06 dr foxy
You guys are forgetting a few things as far as I can tell. You're confusing how many people would buy the game on DVD with how many won't buy it on CD if DVD isn't available. That's the two costs you have to compare. If the lost sales from a CD version is less than the estimated production costs of having two seperate manufacturing processes, then financially speaking just going CD is the route to go.

Of course it would be nicer on DVD, and of course they are going to make a boat load of money, but lets get something clear. We shouldn't be criticising a company for doing what the majority of companys are, we should be applauding the companys that supply games on DVD.

The analogy about a movie on 6 cds is a moot point since you install games and then only have to give the game a single disk subsequently. a film you'd have to change disc 5 times every time you watched the film.

If you're going to deny yourself a potentially great game over having to spend 20 minutes longer installing it, that's a pretty bizarre thing to do.

And as for the multiplayer, as others have pointed out the 4 player limit isn't hard coded into the engine, but it's probably the limit at which the game runs acceptably with everything going on in multiplayer. I've heard some descriptions of maps that have huge sections of the map moving around for example. If we have much more complicated dynamic maps and physics that's a lot more information that needs to be sent back and forth across the network and more load on the server. So it's probably more to do with hardware than engine. No doubt with simplified maps, and models the current engine would be able to cope with more. I'm interested to see how it plays but... and a big but...

Contrary to popular belief iD do not have to supply any kind of multiplayer at all. Infact when they started out on Doom III they weren't promising any. They said, that as far as they were concerned they'd made the best mp game with Quake III and so for their next game they were going to focus entirely on SP. Heck, iD didn't even make the multiplayer component.

As for talk of modding... here's how I actually see things. Do people seriously think that Half Life would have anything like as big a modding community as it currently does if not for the fact that it was the best single player game in a long time. two get a mod community you need two things. a big install base and an easy to work with engine. i'm betting doom III will have both of these things, albeit the work involved in creating a level or model of the standards the game is presenting looks much increased.

and finally... what's wrong with AvP wrapped up in an utterly beautiful engine anyway? AvP is one of the best PC games I've ever played.

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74. Huh? Jul 16, 2004, 10:15 RegularX
Production costs? Two masters?

What, they think this thing isn't going to cover it's margins? It's DOOM 3 for god's sake - it's going to sell like gangbusters.

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93 Replies. 5 pages. Viewing page 1.
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