Out of the Blue

Today is the 60th anniversary of the D-Day invasion in World War II. This is just one of the many moments in history I find it difficult to actually visualize, with every movie, book, or documentary on the topic only serving to make it all the more mind-boggling to imagine the incredible mobilization of men and equipment this involved. And then there's the courage that it takes to storm a beach under fire, parachute behind enemy lines, defend a besieged position, or any of that stuff. Just unimaginable.

Play Time: Tontie.
Links of the Day: The Game. Thanks David Metz.
HeadBlade.
Stories of the Day: The 10 Best Internet Fads.
From Puppy to Lifeline: Service Dogs.
Science!: Reinventing the lightbulb, with nanotubes.
Media of the Day: Transformers.
Follow-up: Your Guide to the Transit of Venus.
Thanks Mike Martinez
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74 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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74.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 8, 2004, 09:06
nin
 
74.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 8, 2004, 09:06
Jun 8, 2004, 09:06
 nin
 
Now you guys have done it! You pissed off HawkeyeLonewolf! Now WTF are we gonna do?! I hope you're all happy and can live with yourselves. WTFG!

(sniff)
<nin sheds a tear>




People look so snooty, Take pills make them moody, Automatic bzooty, Zero to tutti fruitti, Sex in the halls, Niagra Falls, Local shopping malls receive Anonymous calls
73.
 
No subject
Jun 7, 2004, 21:48
Kxmode
 
73.
No subject Jun 7, 2004, 21:48
Jun 7, 2004, 21:48
 Kxmode
 
It's amazing how one man in the entire 20th century (and for the most part 21st century) could bring the world to the brink it was at. Admittedly Hitler may not have been able to achieve his "1000 year reign" for Germany but people for a thousand years to come and beyond will remember Hitler as a madman, mass murderer, and finally a martyr for his country.

"Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times." - Those Who Remain by G. Michael Hopf
Avatar 18786
72.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 19:01
72.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 19:01
Jun 7, 2004, 19:01
 
JoeCool, if Clinton was so responsible for the great economy during his eight years, it shouldn't be a problem for you to provide at least 6 examples of what he did to make the economy so strong.
The Internet boom, along with 100 million households buying $3000.00 computers provided alot of the fuel for the booming economy back then, not to mention the thousands of .com business that opened up and provided tens of thousands of jobs at good salaries, AND all the companies in this country were buying millions of computers AND employing high salary IT professionals. The .com bust and the slowdown was inevitable as any boom in the history of the world comes to an end, or a slowdown at least. If it hadn't been for the Internet boom, the economy would have been average, at best, during the Clinton administration.

I voted for Clinton the first time. I didn't the second. I STILL like the guy, how can anyone not. But stop giving the guy credit for something he had no control over, he's not the God you think he is.

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 19:06.
71.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 18:28
71.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 18:28
Jun 7, 2004, 18:28
 
Wow HawkeyeLonewolf if ignorance is bliss why are you so bitter? If cons had so much class they wouldn't have played partisan politics during Clintons years. Also when it comes to the worst presidents, look to the failed bush dynasty. Bush I was bad but Bush II is worse. Clinton took the wreck Bush I left this country in and turned it into the best economy this country has every seen only to have it destroyed by Shrub I won’t even go into how he’s turned this country into a laughing stock. BTW Clinton had the highest approval ratings of any president ever to leave office. Lets see how low shrubs are when he leaves this November.

Blue... you have a good site. But not that good. I can live without it and your site will live without me. Best to you.

Don't let the doorknob pierce your rectum on your way out.


70.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 17:33
70.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 17:33
Jun 7, 2004, 17:33
 
Very sad Blue left this out. That's the difference between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives have class. If Clinton, one of the worst president we've ever had, passed away Conservatives would still show respect to him as former president.

Liberals (intellectual and moral terrorists) are just tacky.

Blue... you have a good site. But not that good. I can live without it and your site will live without me. Best to you.

Kevin Kitchens
Gamingvoice.com

69.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 15:56
69.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 15:56
Jun 7, 2004, 15:56
 
Clinton is at the head of every category- economy, job growth, deficit reduction, foreign policy, environmental reform, etc.

Slow down there cowboy. Reagan may have had a lot to do with the bad economy during his term, but Clinton had nothing to do with the good economy during his. Economists still dont know how the economy works, so to attribute the wonderful economy of the 90s to Clinton is a bit misplaced me thinks.
Clinton...foreign policy? Bush may have bad foreign policy (WMD...*cough*), but Clinton had no foreign policy. I like Clinton...but he was a president of favorable circumstances. On the whole (I know people are going to run away with this here) Clinton had fewer hard decisions to make than any other president in recent history. How, for example, do you think Clinton would have handled 911? It kindof frightens me to think about it actually. Let's not get carried away with what he actually did/didn't do in office here. And if Hillary ever gets near the Oval office again, then god help us all.

68.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 15:27
68.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 15:27
Jun 7, 2004, 15:27
 
Aside from your snarky [sic] comment, you said nothing of substance.

Prolonged Cold War? Who can say, really? I don't think so, however bankrupting the Soviet Union wasn't exactly the plan they had in mind. (Citing the Washington Post or Times is bad enough not to need a response.)

"Unemployment, the poverty rate, interest rates and inflation all dropped under Reagan. The economy experienced the then-longest peace-time expansion since the end of WWII. "

How can I put this, ah yes, bullshit After the incredible lows of his first term, the largest deficit and decline in history (up until that point) there wasn't exactly anywhere else to go but up, yes? He still finished off his 2 terms worse off than when he came into office. Peace-time, um, Cold War (even though it wasn't a war) and the hell we put South Americans and middle eastern people through. Admittedly people didn't KNOW at the time, but that is hardly peace-time. You have some very creative interpretations of history I must say.

How about going to whitehouse.gov and looking at the information for past presidents. Look especially at the comparisons of the presidents. Notice anything? Like the past 5 republican presidents all had negative effects by the ends of their terms, and that, horror of horrors, Clinton is at the head of every category- economy, job growth, deficit reduction, foreign policy, environmental reform, etc.

I've read a lot of non-US history books. You'd probably love to read the UN report on Nicaragua, considering how badly it condemned Reagan's actions. Change the names and countries of origin and you would think the US is a rogue nation.

Again, the guy was a great actor/speaker. He was also a horrible president.


Being that you used the whole lefty-democrat spiel with a complete lat of facts and only sideways slanted speech, I won't wait for your reply

BTW- in American we're allowed to call the man on his past actions, dead or alive. I'm sure you love to speak of Clinton's personal life.

Damn, I better take a bit to distance myself from Halsy now


EDIT- I didn't mention Carter, he wasn't a very good president, however I'm was reversing the Hannity mentality here. If you listen to Rush or any of the Neo crew, you should at least listen to Air America to regain your sanity, and that goes for all the damn Democrat wagon riders who make inane statements that are as unsubstantiated as their opposition.

I do admit, the Neos are far more fun to listen to
This comment was edited on Jun 7, 15:34.
Avatar 20108
67.
 
Re: Supply-side economics
Jun 7, 2004, 14:43
67.
Re: Supply-side economics Jun 7, 2004, 14:43
Jun 7, 2004, 14:43
 
a line at the top of one of those pages reminds me of this...


[teacher bloke to class] "...some..thing -D-O-O economics....anyone?...anyone?...VOODOO economics."


and i've probably misquoted that..

Thats brilliant! It is a youngish Ben Stein (who's dad was an economist who worked with Reagan I believe) from the movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off. We've all had a teacher like that.

66.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 14:42
66.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 14:42
Jun 7, 2004, 14:42
 
Halsy: "Ended the cold war? Regan PROLONGED the cold war. The Soviet Union would have ended much sooner were it not for the gipper and his stupid 'evil empire' cowboy politicking."

Tell it to the Russians, none of whom agree with a word of that. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20764-2004Jun6.html

"Regan [sic] prolonged the cold war" may be the most amusingly groundless assertion I've ever read about the late President.

"He was also the one who cut servicing the debt to 60%, ran up a massive deficit, high unemployment and greatly increased poverty."

Unemployment, the poverty rate, interest rates and inflation all dropped under Reagan. The economy experienced the then-longest peace-time expansion since the end of WWII.

"Don't forget Iran Contra. After Nicaragua took the U.S. to the world court and won their case when America was endicted for terrorism, what was Regan's response? They dismissed the ruling out of hand and escalated the war."

And when the war ended, the Nicaraguans overwhelmingly elected the party identifed with the Contras. But who cares what the Nicaraguan people themselves thought. According to the way leftists and Democrats think, that just makes the Nicaraguans wrong.

"Anyone that would celebrate that mass murderer may as well toast Hitler while they're at as well."

It's interesting that Reagan is/was popular among Eastern Europeans who suffered under both Nazi and Soviet oppression. Maybe they understand his place in history better than you.

65.
 
Re: Supply-side economics
Jun 7, 2004, 12:59
pob
65.
Re: Supply-side economics Jun 7, 2004, 12:59
Jun 7, 2004, 12:59
pob
 
a line at the top of one of those pages reminds me of this...


[teacher bloke to class] "...some..thing -D-O-O economics....anyone?...anyone?...VOODOO economics."


and i've probably misquoted that..

64.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 12:38
64.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 12:38
Jun 7, 2004, 12:38
 
I'd probably have to nominate Jimmy Carter as worst recent president...

I'll second that, funny how Halsy calls Regan a prick but doesn't mention just how bad things were under Carter...like...the wage freeze just for starters. I remember how alot of people were just about ready to head for the Capital with pithforks and rope looking for Carter, that's how bad it was.

Another thing Halsey, you want proof, well here it is:

"Reagan bolstered the U.S. military might to ruin the Soviet economy, and he achieved his goal," said Gennady Gerasimov, who was the top spokesman for the Soviet Foreign Ministry during the 1980s.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040607_356.html

63.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 11:49
63.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 11:49
Jun 7, 2004, 11:49
 
'Trickle-down economics has also been proven' - Prove it

Sigh. I told you the reference, but I'll do the trivial Google search for you (google for 'luxury boat tax'. First hit -- http://academic.pg.cc.md.us/~wknight/economics/rhome.htm).

Here's the quote:

The luxury tax was implemented and boat prices jumped 10% to the consumer. Sales of luxury boats plummeted 70% as a result of the luxury tax. Sales were down 90% in south Florida, as consumers went to the Bahamas to buy similar boats without the financial penalty. The shipbuilding industry in America lost 19,000 jobs. And thousands more were lost in the retail sales of boats and boating supplies.

The Congressional Budget Office expected to raise $300 million a year as a result of the tax. By the end of 1991, the tax had generated only $30 million. When costs of the taxes (regulating and enforcing the tax, as well as federal unemployment benefits for boat workers), the government actually lost $8 million as a result of the tax. In 1993, during the Clinton Administration, the luxury tax on boats was repealed. Because the demand for luxury boats was so much more elastic than the supply, the brunt of the burden of this consumer tax fell on the producers.


Obviously, trickle-down economics does not work in general (try it on bread and it'll fail miserably), but there are cases where it's been proven to work.

The Democrats, by that time no longer in power in the Congress, spearheaded the drive to repeal the luxury tax as I recall. It was mostly Democratic areas that were hard hit by the fallout of the luxury tax.

Star Wars, which did cost trillions, wasn't exactly a bright shining fake project

No, it's an abortion. No real scientist thinks it will ever work, and it's a piss poor way to pump money into science and technology.

That said, you don't think the Russians were worried about it? If it had come to fruition, the Russians would've lost one of their major armanments against the US. Sure, it wouldn't apply to submarine based launches, but our HK subs were more advanced than their boomers, and they knew it.

Take a look into the development of a pure-titanium hulled HK for one of the paranoid projects that the Russians set into development. It ate a helluva lot of their capital too. (It was in response to an alleged US sub that could do 60 knots... reported in Jane's Defense and everything. And was a complete fabrication by the US intelligence community. This was pre-Reagan though).

I think it is prudent to notice how all the really, truly horrible things the guy did is ignored

He wasn't known as the Teflon President for nothing.

I still am waiting to see the people who were supposed to refute the tactics in South America, Iran

The SA bit related to Reagan's paranoia over communists. Can't defend what was done though. As for Iran -- yes, we supported Saddam Hussein militarily and economically in the early and mid 80s. Would you care to profer an alternate strategy to prevent Iran, who controlled ~70% of the Middle Eastern population and land, and was ruled by a theocracy that was vehemenantly anti-US, from invading and taking control of Iraq? Particularly when there had already been one war in the area, and it was rapidly headed toward a second? Consider that if Iran controlled Iraq (either directly or through a puppet government) it would then control virtually all of the land andpeople, a majority of the oil in the region, and all holy sites except Mecca. Backing Hussein was essentially the lesser of two evils. This is essentially why we left him in power after the first Gulf War. Iran has weakened politically recently, but I question that it's changed enough to have warranted creating a power vacuum in Iraq now. That's rapidly divurging toward a different issue though.

I'm surprised nobody's brought up Reagan's treatment of mental illness... or rather, the lack thereof. Under Reagan the national budget for treating mental illness was cut by something around 80-90%, which caused a vast number of mentally ill patients to be released. Most of them are still on the streets and homeless.

Like I said, the guy wasn't a saint. But he wasn't the worst president we've had either (and no, Clinton wasn't either... the personal piccadillos were shameful, but you have to question how they were unearthed in the first place... and realize that he was far from the first president to be an adulterer (nor was Kennedy)). I'd probably have to nominate Jimmy Carter as worst recent president... he's a good guy, and has done some amazing work, but he was just a lousy president. Bush Jr is making a run for the money though... I don't think we'll see the full effects of his presidency for decades though, for good or ill.

62.
 
Alzheimers
Jun 7, 2004, 11:38
62.
Alzheimers Jun 7, 2004, 11:38
Jun 7, 2004, 11:38
 
I found that right from the beginning, there was something "not quite right" about Reagan.

His speech style, and the way he lost track of thoughts easily mirrored my grandmother, who was in the early stages of Alzheimers at the time he entered office.

It was obvious to several people I knew that he was in trouble from the start, and that proved itself out when it was finally made public a few years ago.

I highly doubt Reagan was even competent for the latter half of his term in office, rather acting as a figurehead for Nancy, who supported him through the time, and their closest supporters.

Don't forget that his "evil empire" commentary was written by speech writers for maximum political effect. Bush's "axis of evil" comment was written by a speech writer as well. I forget his first name, last name is "Frum".

It's no secret that people associate the effectiveness of a president with his personality, whether it's related or not. Nixon never fared well in public, and if he had been charismatic, people would be chuckling over the Watergate scandal as if it were nothing now.

Reagan had charisma. That guarantees him a favorable place in American history, whether the facts say otherwise or not.

61.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 11:30
Gojo
 
61.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 11:30
Jun 7, 2004, 11:30
 Gojo
 
I guess Blue felt that since a lot of us were already discussing his passing that it was superfluous to put the RIP up...

That's not stopped him before.
But enough of this, I still love this site and respect Blue, but was disappointed in this.


This comment was edited on Jun 7, 11:31.
=-Gojo-=
Avatar 8715
60.
 
Supply-side economics
Jun 7, 2004, 11:22
60.
Supply-side economics Jun 7, 2004, 11:22
Jun 7, 2004, 11:22
 
This is probably just fanning the flames, but here's a couple of papers on supply-side economics, with attributions. A little light reading for the regulars before continuing the good fight, no matter what side you're on...

http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~nroubini/SUPPLY.HTM

http://mirrors.korpios.org/resurgent/23More.htm

Edit: Arrrgh. Must... proofread... before... posting!

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 11:35.
59.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 10:47
59.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 10:47
Jun 7, 2004, 10:47
 
Blue posted a RIP for Reagan yesterday. Come on guys. Pay attention before say things like that.

Actually, Blue didn't. nin posted a link about this to the forum accompanying yesterday's OOTB (which is where Sunday's brouhaha over Reagan really started).

I guess Blue felt that since a lot of us were already discussing his passing that it was superfluous to put the RIP up...

Edited: to remove repetitious repetition...

This comment was edited on Jun 7, 10:48.
58.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 10:03
58.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 10:03
Jun 7, 2004, 10:03
 
Good post Zathrus. Lacking on any specifics, but I saw your reasoning.

I don't truly understand the whole Democratic House bit. That's almost like saying there were trustworthy politicians in office (ever ). A president, before the great riff after the Clinton election, could say a few words publicly and it was reasonably accepted that legislators would follow it rather than risk some sort of backlash. Status quo on modern politics.

'Trickle-down economics has also been proven' - Prove it. I would very much like to see the study you have cited. When I was in college, I was taught that this was a flawed hypothesis with no real-world evidence of being applicable. I can even look for my text book if any one wants; I just have to rummage into my mom's attic some day.

His dealings with communism, again, is set in history books. I don't see this genius plan other than the Soviet Union was too preoccupied with the war machine than internal economy. The arms race was going well before Reagan sat in the oval office. Star Wars, which did cost trillions, wasn't exactly a bright shining fake project. Perhaps you could provide these examples that were missing in well referrenced works such as 'The Rise and Fall of Communism'.

Considering the pro-Reagan who did no wrong, perhaps we should make a monument like Rushmoore for Reagan like atmosphere, I think it is prudent to notice how all the really, truly horrible things the guy did is ignored.

I still am waiting to see the people who were supposed to refute the tactics in South America, Iran, and willful ignorance towards HIV.


I guess they can't recall...

Said it earlier, just because someone dies doesn't erase what he did, good or bad.

Though, he was a hell of a speaker, wasn't he?



Edit- Ugh, my speeling has gone to hell
This comment was edited on Jun 7, 10:05.
Avatar 20108
57.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 09:38
57.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 09:38
Jun 7, 2004, 09:38
 
Oh yes? Think, I'm wrong? Prove it

I'd rather see you prove that Reagan actually extended the life of the USSR and its sattelite states. That should be an impressive bit of revisionist history.

Yes, the USSR and company were already on the way down by the late 70s... they simply could not match the technological might of the corporate West. But it was really freaking dicey for awhile there, and having someone who was strong in office prevented a nuclear holocaust (yes, we came within 5 minutes of having a Russian strike launched at least once). Reagan made it damn clear that he would stop any USSR incursion, and that the US had the military might to back up that threat. And the USSR did spend itself to death in trying to match that might... including trying to beat projects that never existed (we planted several fake military projects, they bought it hook, line, and sinker, and tried to design something better -- at massive cost).

As far as the national debt goes -- yes, because I'm sure the Democratic House of Representatives he had for both terms had nothing to do with the spending and national debt run up. The President may make recommendations and requests, but ultimately it's up to Congress to pass budgets, tax cuts, and all other bills. Yes, there were also vetos involved, but ultimately you cannot discount the fact that the Democrats controlled half of Congress and allowed "Reaganomics" to occur. Oh, and funny thing... trickle-down economics has also been proven. Do some research on the luxury tax on boats in the early 1990s. No, trickle-down economics isn't applicable to everything, but it's not this phantasm that left wingers want to believe either.

Dancing on his grave just makes you look sad and pitiful Halsy. Was he a perfect president? Hell no. And I think the accolades he's getting right now are rather over the top. But he wasn't the villian you make him out to be either.

Once more, the truth is somewhere in between.

56.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 09:08
nin
 
56.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 09:08
Jun 7, 2004, 09:08
 nin
 


Blue posted a RIP for Reagan yesterday. Come on guys. Pay attention before say things like that

I guess I just don't see it then (and I did a search before I posted to make sure.)


I don't either...where was it again?

People look so snooty, Take pills make them moody, Automatic bzooty, Zero to tutti fruitti, Sex in the halls, Niagra Falls, Local shopping malls receive Anonymous calls
55.
 
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan?
Jun 7, 2004, 09:06
Gojo
 
55.
Re: no RIP for Ronald Reagan? Jun 7, 2004, 09:06
Jun 7, 2004, 09:06
 Gojo
 
Blue posted a RIP for Reagan yesterday. Come on guys. Pay attention before say things like that

I guess I just don't see it then (and I did a search before I posted to make sure.)
=-Gojo-=
Avatar 8715
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