Shadowcat is correct. Warren's best talent is not coming up with great ideas (which he does) but rather in his ability to communicate his vision to his team and keep them motivatated. Good ideas are a dime a dozen. Executing them is tremendously difficult.

Invisible War and Thief III suffered because they pushed their own technology too soon instead of licensing. They didn't estimate the time and work it would take to develop their own engine which is why the games lack a huge amount of polish that existed in the past.

This is why you saw the recuitment at E3 for EXTREMELY experienced staff, especially producers. Rest assured that the next set of games will be much different. Ion Storm learns from their mistakes unlike a lot of other studios.

As for the remarks about Daikatana. That is precisely why I wouldn't be suprised by a change in name even though it was Ion Storm Dallas and not Ion Storm Austin. Daikatana was bad but it is not nearly as bad as many of the games released today. Most people forget about Ion Storm Dallas' great game Anachronox. The Dallas company's problems stemmed from poor management. Romero hired a bunch of inexperienced friends, didn't watch his spending, let guys goof off, build poor interemployee chemistry, but still to this day is a talented designer.

Rest assured that whatever is happening up at Ion Storm, Warren will continue to make great games and suprise us all. Invisible War was a great learning experience for him I am sure and he will use it to his advantage in the future.

That's my 2 cents.

Anyway, If Warren is gone from ION perhaps he will go back to being a game designer at a new company instead of being a clueless "game manager" in charge of different teams. Something he obviously wasn’t good at.

AFAIK, Warren has more often been a producer than a designer. That's certainly not to say he doesn't have input (people tend to wear multiple hats), but I think it is a false impression based on the success of Deus Ex and the association of his name with a number of othe highly regarded games that has led to people imagining that he is a brilliant PC game designer responsible for the design of all those games.

His primary skills when it comes to developing computer games do appear to be more people-oriented than design-oriented.

In case I was talking rubbish, I've just checked mobygames (which if not entirely comprehensive, should be pretty representative), which gives him the following credits for 27 titles. Some of the credits (such as documentation and writing) tend to be shared with others.

Producer (9)
Producer & Writing / Dialogue / Story (1)
Documentation & Producer (3)
Documentation (4)
Producer and Project Director (1)
Studio Director (2)
Additional Material (1)
Special Thanks (5)
Uncredited (1)

Now either he's extremely modest with regards to his credits, or he has never been the major game design god that so many people seem to think he is or was (no offense intended to Warren here -- I just think that people have the wrong idea of what his role has tended to be).

Personally, I think it's a bit of both these things, as I think he is a fairly modest sort -- he's certainly always the first to point out in interviews how a game is the result of a team effort if the interviewer seems to be implying that he virtually did it all himself.

This comment was edited on May 30, 10:40.

They really are not different - at least, they do not have to be.

I have all four systems, but that is really just do to having console-specific releases and/or different hardware.

If I could play the different Mario and Metroid games on my PC - so long as I had an equivalent gamepad/controller - I certainly would.

A good game should, ideally, be a good game on any platform. The reason so many of these cross-platform releases do not work is either that companies spend little to no effort making sure the release is up to par or developers do have this self-imposed distinction between platforms, usually making them make some seemingly bizarre design issues.

There are a few differences in the architecture - PCs have been developed to have small monitors whereas consoles generally have been played in the living room. Still, what do you do about that? Note the way consoles are adapting online play and, especially this next hardware round, will make it as a basic necessity. Why not just leave it as a PC-only aspect? Because it does not need to be and it is fairly stupid to leave it that way.

There certainly are some expectations for both sides, but I generally come to "expect" these things because they make common sense and I find it hard to play without these (input, configuration, gameplay, resolution, whatever it may be.) Heaven forbid people actually try to merge these.

Although far off, this is why people look to the all-in-one setup at your television or HDTV monitor. Ideally, there can be a system that integrates 95% of these items and ends up being the Uber entry for people...

Just wanting to play good games,
Ray

-----
"You're worried about morals? Beat them senseless and steal their clothing, dammit! Steal! Steal!!"
http://users.ign.com/collection/RayMarden
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=ANF&id=ray_marden
I love you, mom.

PC games are often played solo, 18-24 inches from a high-res monitor, for hours at a time due to immersion.

If you're sitting that close to your monitor for hours at a time, then that explains the brain damage.

Now where's my GIMP?


This comment was edited on May 29, 18:33.

Can somebody please explain the logic of this? I just read a comment a few down this thread that said that it makes perfect sense for companies to make one game that cuts across all platforms.

I just don't get this line of reasoning. Console games have an entirely different feel, play style and immersion than PC games. Not worse per se, but quite different.

Console games are played sitting on a couch, 10 ft from the TV, often with friends, for an hour at a time. They have great driving and fighting games in particular.

PC games are often played solo, 18-24 inches from a high-res monitor, for hours at a time due to immersion. Strategy, RTS, simulations and FPS are the PC hallmark. Complexity of options and controls is another.

Console games don't port well to PCs, and PC games often fail going to consoles. Even KOTOR, the exception to this general rule, suffered considerably from "dumbing down" to fit the X-Box. C'mon - tell me that keeping KOTOR's storyline, graphics, characters, but adding a little more of NWN or BG2's tactical complexity would have made it a worse game?

I think they're fundamentally different markets - in style, consumer base, etc. Why don't the publisher's understand this?

Put another way, DX:IW was made for both X-Box and PC to make more sales, then if it was PC alone. Yet couldn't a case be made that DX:IW would have sold more total copies if it was a quality PC game only, rather than a rushed, botched port?

A Luddite PC gamer,

Istari

Er...I believe the engine is still secondary for id. I know that Carmack has commented in the past that the licensing has been a significantly smaller percentage than the actual games. Back then, he even commented that it was higher than normal (maybe 25% or 33% - something along those lines) because of the success of Half-Life.

Granted, you could tweak numbers and look at them on a yearly basis; id may not always release a game each year, but the game does bring in much more money when/if it is released.

Note that this is hardly the setup of your normal game developer...

Having about 13K loot saved up now,
Ray

-----
"You're worried about morals? Beat them senseless and steal their clothing, dammit! Steal! Steal!!"
http://users.ign.com/collection/RayMarden
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=ANF&id=ray_marden
I love you, mom.

I think Doom III will be unrivaled in atmosphere...story isn't neccesary if the atmosphere and feeling of actually being there is created. Take Metroid Prime for example..the only bits of story you see appear optionally through use of your scan visor..the story is just icing on the cake if the experience is THERE..I can imagine a Doom marine not caring too much about HOW demons started flooding through portals as opposed to how does he escape and eradicate the beasties...my 2 cents

You make a good point here and I have to admit, I thought Metroid Prime rocked. The Metriod games have always been pretty much devoid of meaningful story and yet have always been really good. The thing with the old Doom games was that though I enjoyed them, I got tired of them very quickly because after the initial fun of blowing crap up and watching Imps blow apart beside an exploding barrel, there was nothing to keep me around. For me, that's what story and immersiveness do. Now, id Software had the chance to make some amazing atmosphere with the technology they have at their disposal this time around. If they can pull it off, Doom 3 might definitely be worth it.

Parallax Abstraction
Technical Consultant, Hardcore Modern and Retro Gamer, Video Game Historian
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Reserve judgements untill the game is out. What you said about Doom 3 shows complete ignorance of the facts. Id has stated that they are going AGIANST the groove with this title and will try to make a story bound and atmospheric retteling of the original Doom. Hell they even hired a REAL writer to set up the script even before production began.
So untill the game is released i would reserve my comments if I were you.

Well, while I do think this is how Doom 3 will turn out, I of course could be wrong and hope I am. And I should have said that I did in fact enjoy the previous Doom games back in the day. The thing is that I hear about this "going against the grain with innovation" line from a lot of developers and most don't deliver. The fact is that id Software makes their money from licensing their engine ad infinitum, not from the games. That's why they're able to work on only one project at a time and have large breaks between each one. The engine is first and foremost in their mind and I have a real problem with that as games shoudl be about the game, not the graphics.

About the other things in your post, I agree completely. Im sick of developers making unoptimised and clunky engines just for the sake of the game having ALL THE SHINY OPTIONS and THE KEWLEST GRAPHICS. No one seems to be puttning any effort into writing a bit of decent code nowdays. They think that superior hardware is going to pull them out of the sewers. And Im starting to suspect there is a kind of conspiracy going on inside the PC games industry to get more people to buy consoles, or constantly upgrade their PCs.
I say, fuck that. I guess the main problem is that PC hardware is getting more powerfull in such great leaps, the developers are simply too lazy to rid their code of bugs and optimise it. Kudos to John Carmack and id for being the exception to the rule with all of their games so far, hopefully Doom 3 will be made with the same care and attention and if its not, well fuck it there is always Blizzard.

Yes, there is always Blizzard. Thankfully, Vivendi Universal Games hasn't screwed with them too much, though Bill Roper did leave the company because he was concerned about how VU was throwing their influence around a bit too much. I will say for sure that StarCraft 2 is going to be my most anticipated game release ever. I still play the original with my friends on a regular basis and this is a game that still sells well, six years later. I was still running Windows 95 when that shipped originally. My prediction is that they are going to announce StarCraft 2 after StarCraft Ghost and World of WarCraft get out in the world. I do hope that the gaming public is able to convince the industry to grow up and start caring about content again, but we will have to see. With a few exceptions, Hollywood never got it.

Parallax Abstraction
Technical Consultant, Hardcore Modern and Retro Gamer, Video Game Historian
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

WHy the hell cant the stupid developers make decent menus/interface for the PC version?

Because the publisher knows they don't have to, and can get away with it...that, or the devs aren't given enough time to do it. It sucks, I agree.

Jesus...built my car. It's a love affair (mainly Jesus and my hotrod).

Although I believe they are outsourcing the actual game to another developer - don't quote me on that, my memory is vague - but Blizzard is doig Starcraft Ghost for all the consoles. Along the same lines, Half-Life (and its mods) has appeared in the console market, too.

Wanting a new Krondor game :o,
Ray

Edit: Duh! "Ghost" - "Recon" + "Starcraft" = Starcraft Ghost
-----
"You're worried about morals? Beat them senseless and steal their clothing, dammit! Steal! Steal!!"
http://users.ign.com/collection/RayMarden
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=ANF&id=ray_marden
I love you, mom.
This comment was edited on May 29, 12:12.

Excellent thread guys.

I don't blame developers for going to consoles at all. If a game is great, it can be great on any medium that meets a minimum asthetic requirement.

A game that even stands a chance nowadays costs about $10 million to make. I'm not sure, but I think you have to sell about 600-700K copies to just break even. It's not very smart to ONLY make PC games if you want to secure the future of the studio. There are so few dedicated PC developers - Valve, Blizzard, and a few others. They suck up a big bulk of the total "spend" consumers have per year on PC games.

I wish the new Ion Storm company (whatever they call themselves) luck. I think they have a bunch of smart guys there and with proper focus and game design leadership, they will make great games, no matter what the medium.

Also, I find it sad how PC-only gamers are quickly becoming tired Luddites.

I would suspect they are looking at two things:

1. User base. If you sold your game to 25% of the current PC gaming audience, you would not make as much money selling your game to only 10% of the current PS2/console audience.

2. Limited, fixed hardware. This can cut down on development time, greatly minimize support issues, and you can often spend less time trying to fill the potential of the hardware (you have to work a lot harder these days to maximize a x800 whereas the PS2 hardware is quite old by now.)

Yes, there is more to this, but these are generalizations.

Avoiding the expectations aspect...,
Ray

-----
"You're worried about morals? Beat them senseless and steal their clothing, dammit! Steal! Steal!!"
http://users.ign.com/collection/RayMarden
http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=ANF&id=ray_marden
I love you, mom.

Wasn't it Eidos and/or Ion Storm running the big recruitment drive at e3?

I'm sure that was a story here on blues...

People who claim the reason Ion Storm was shifting to consoles in order to make money think about this: there's about a million more games on console that are a hell of a lot more popular than Deus Ex or Thief. They can't compete with the likes of Grand Theft Auto or Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy or whatever. They'll never succeed in switching to a new audience.

Right away Eidos/Ion Storm were screwed. Combine that with their ability to make shitty games and you should start asking what time to show up for the funeral.

This comment was edited on May 29, 11:25.

I say fuck Ion Storm, They made one good game, Deus Ex, and thats about it. I will never forgive them for Daikatana.
They deserve whats coming to them. May they burn in Game Developer Hell where they will undoubtly end up being pulled by Eidos after all these job cuts.

Anyone who wishes game developers to fail really doesn't deserve a reply, but I will anyway. First of all, Daikatana was made by a totally different company, Ion Storm Dallas, not Ion Storm Austin who made Deus Ex. Second, if you bash Dallas, you at least have to acknowledge the other game they made: Anachronox, which is excellent.

The only thing that can save us, and restore the once brilliant lustre of PC games is the growing grass-roots market, ala Garage Games and hopefully others... people who are not in it for the money usually have more heart and put more genuine effort into innovation... in a few years, when those people are very skilled and they have a larger base of resources to work with, we might start seeing some really impressive games coming from the independent sector.... and yes other countries outside the US also seem to have a better chance at making something "legendary"...

frankly im sad that old favorites like EA and Sierra snd Interplay have become such laughable husks of their former glory... the money might be HUGE - but the games are not

_____________________________________________
Give me slack. Or kill me.

Black and White is my idea of a game that truly has amazing graphics (even by today's standards) and rock solid code/gameplay...kinda random yes but i just picked it up in the bargain bin at EB the other day and I must say it really is MORE than just a game

I think Doom III will be unrivaled in atmosphere...story isn't neccesary if the atmosphere and feeling of actually being there is created. Take Metroid Prime for example..the only bits of story you see appear optionally through use of your scan visor..the story is just icing on the cake if the experience is THERE..I can imagine a Doom marine not caring too much about HOW demons started flooding through portals as opposed to how does he escape and eradicate the beasties...my 2 cents

We've also seen a growing trend of companies focusing more and more on getting out the next coolest engine rather than a good game. Many games these days are just playable technology demos that happen to sell well (I still firmly believe Doom 3 will be this.)

Reserve judgements untill the game is out. What you said about Doom 3 shows complete ignorance of the facts. Id has stated that they are going AGIANST the groove with this title and will try to make a story bound and atmospheric retteling of the original Doom. Hell they even hired a REAL writer to set up the script even before production began.
So untill the game is released i would reserve my comments if I were you.

About the other things in your post, I agree completely. Im sick of developers making unoptimised and clunky engines just for the sake of the game having ALL THE SHINY OPTIONS and THE KEWLEST GRAPHICS. No one seems to be puttning any effort into writing a bit of decent code nowdays. They think that superior hardware is going to pull them out of the sewers. And Im starting to suspect there is a kind of conspiracy going on inside the PC games industry to get more people to buy consoles, or constantly upgrade their PCs.
I say, fuck that. I guess the main problem is that PC hardware is getting more powerfull in such great leaps, the developers are simply too lazy to rid their code of bugs and optimise it. Kudos to John Carmack and id for being the exception to the rule with all of their games so far, hopefully Doom 3 will be made with the same care and attention and if its not, well fuck it there is always Blizzard.

I say fuck Ion Storm, They made one good game, Deus Ex, and thats about it. I will never forgive them for Daikatana.
They deserve whats coming to them. May they burn in Game Developer Hell where they will undoubtly end up being pulled by Eidos after all these job cuts.

As a Smellfinger Gimp wantabe, I could have made that Fart noise!