#41#42
Sounds good MacD
and no question, if you put all your free time and energy into something, you sure as hell want it to be recognized. nothing's wrong with that, but I agree with MacD, that its at least possible,if your project is really done with passion and executed well, it might create its own market. it doesn't happen every day, but it does. its actually the only way new markets can come up. you can't know if there is demand for something until your throw it on the market.
that's also at the heart of capitalism, to create demands people wouldn't dream before that they have. in fact that's what keeps the whole pc industry alive.

#40. hey, actually I do enjoy the discussion as well and didn't perceive you as a jackass(well..at least not anymore after your last 3 posts .

I am realistic too, but for one I don't want realism turn into fatalism and for the other, reality does show that at least once in a while, periodically someone somewhere pulls off something original and succeeds because of exactly that. if it weren't so we'd still be playing space invaders

I must also say.. I don't really "demand" or expect the mega hyper total innovation.I'm already pleased with a distinct different visual twist.
Like.. on the gameplay side those war shooters ,especially squad based do have a lot to offer, but you can follow the same play mechanism in a different setting and different visual style. Freedom Fighters would be somewhat of an example for that.
I agree.. many titles that seemed somewhat fresh, where actually a mish-mash of the old, but its like with cooking,where a different combination of the same spices can make up for a new wonderful dish.
what also bugs me is that the technological possibilities have grown so much, yet the creativity does seem to fall behind sometimes . sure publishers/market politics have a major impact here.
it's interesting to see though, that some of the more interesting stuff comes from those countries who somehow just started to put their foot into the game business. Stalker would be the big example here.

one thing that I think also often hurts the case is the almighty hype machine. it puts all the focus on a very few games and makes it hard to catch attention for anything else. Far Cry stands for both the good and the bad here imho. On one hand it did things a little different and has its share of freshness and while I think its a good game, I do also think it is a little overrated and for whatever reason most reviews simply seem to completely ignore its flaws .
Black&white .. yeah, oh how I was looking forward to that and how I enjoyed the first couple of hours playing it, only to certainly but slowly drift away into disappointment then.

This comment was edited on May 23, 11:33.

americans make terrible guns...ill take a slightly pointy stick over an m-16 anyday

Razor, as right as you may be I'd still pay to see your pointy stick vs. M16 debate acted out.

I agree that innovation will come eventually. Of course, Nintendo does make innovative games, but I can't think of a single friend of mine who has a Nintendo or enjoys the esoteric concept games they churn out (like Pikmin for example). It depends on who and how you market it I guess, much like anything else. Like I said, some ideas are fantastic in concept and horrible in execution. You have to be good at both, which is a rare thing these days, in order to be truly innovative.

My mod idea? I wouldn't do it for the money, I'd do it for my resume portfolio. As for an audience, if no one plays it, or very few people, I'd be pretty disappointed for all the work that went into it. Yes its a labor of love, but it also represents the people creating it, you can't help but have your ego solidly crushed if no one enjoys what you think would be a great game.

Well, you asked for it, you got it

Fact is, innovation has to come from mods (or Nintendo ), nowadays. PC dev's just can't get the funding anymore for something 'risky'...same reason why Hollywood turns out mostly trash.

And as for mods: sure, this is a WW2 shooter...go modders! They have fun making it, so let 'em make what they want. If however you're looking for something more esoteric...just wait: the mailinglists etc show that there's some quite interesting new concepts coming out, as well as some very nice evolutions of the current engines (meaning modders extending engines to do more cool stuff in the current framework). You just have to have some patience...and you'll have to hope the mod teams get some quality people working on 'em, because no-one (well, hardly anyone) wants to play something that looks like shit, no matter how fun it is; people want a minimum of eye-candy.

Finally, as for your mod idea, Lil' Fetus...find some people and go for it; modders don't do it for the money, and a large audience is something that'll form if you have a fun and decent looking game....remember, great businesses create their own market.

#39

It has nothing to do with originality "equal bad made and no fun." It has everything to do with whether publishers are willing to take that risk, and whether said risks have paid off in the past. I mean, let's be honest, every few years a new title comes out, that somehow mish-mashes some already existing genres together and it may OR may not sell well.

Take Black and White for example, it sold fairly well (at least as far as I know) and received positive reviews. But in retrospect I can say, and almost every reviewer who originally reviewed, found it dull and repetitive after the initial wow factor wore off.

Other games just aren't ready or polished enough, even though they take giant leaps forward. I'd like to think Battlezone (the remake) is one of those, you certainly see inklings of it in Natural Selection and Battlefield 2. Or take Trespasser for example. Completely unpolished, but was way ahead of its time in terms of interface and its physics engine.

The thing is I, and apparently everyone else, would rather have a really polished well made mod/game over something that tries to jump to far forward or tries a concept which doesn't work. Will Evil Genius or the Movies end up being great games with replayability in them? I hope so, but no one will know until they come out next year or whenever. I'd like to see innovation in the industry, but quite frankly I'm a realist, and theses things move slowly over time. If a game doesn't sell well in a certain genre: horror, god games, etc. Then you really can't blame any developer/publisher from staying away from that genre for a while, can you? Monoculture as you call it, is at the heart of business and capitalism. Yes, we thrive on breakthroughs and revolution/evolution, but its becoming increasing rare to find.

I enjoy horror games too, and thought of doing a mod for Half-Life 2 that would be a multiplayer Lovecraftian game, but I don't know if there is enough interest to support that idea.

I'm also part of the indsutry as well, as are many people on this board, so I'm not speaking out of my ass either. Listen, I'm not trying to be a jackass, I actually think this discussion is interesting and wish others would join in, so I'm sorry if I come across that way. Peace.

#38.
No, I don't think so and I am certainly not that naive. But why on earth would doing something more original equal bad made and no fun? or put it this way.. do you really think that if it continues that most modmakers do real war and cs-like mods, each of them has such high chances of getting recognized? wouldn't something that IS fun and well made AND really different catch even more attention?
I mean.. hey , it can't be that meanwhile the only possibility to succeed is making a goddamn ww2 mod.

Now I might add, that I personally love horror settings a lot ( no, not scifi quake horror), but trust me, if all modmakers would now follow that line of genre,I would just the same as now, strongly hope that finally someone may come up with something different.
i just really think that this kind of monoculture is terrible. if the supposed young and fresh ones are already so timid and afraid to take any risks, how they're gonna end up? its sad enough that in the professional market we're gonna see even more of the same and the sequel games for the movie sequel .

on a sidenote.. I am really not talking out of my ass. I have once a long time ago worked on one of the few full HL TCs that got completed(of not the only one, apart from Gunmen chronicles).
I really know what endurance means in the mod scene and how difficult to achieve. And meanwhile I am one of those that works for a living in the industry and it certainly doesn't get easier from there on, when you are confronted with the almighty rules of the publisher.

This comment was edited on May 22, 18:10.

#37

Do you really think that most of these mod makers are just doing it purely out of good nature? That's a pretty naive way to look at it. I think many of them are trying to get recognition or get a publishing contract. If you think otherwise, then you have a lot to learn. As a result, they're trying to make a mod that is both fun and well made. Otherwise, no one is going to play it for more than 5 minutes. I've been a part of a couple mod teams, off and on, and on ALL of them they were looking for more than a diversion. They were all looking to use it on their resume to get a gaming job or get picked up by a publisher. Whether that's a ridiculous belief to hold, that of all the mods yours will be the one everyone plays, is neither here nor there. The truth is, even mod makers now are in it for more than just fun.

Women do play games. There have been many studies done to indicate such. They play games that take little time investment to learn and can be played on the fly. Games like mahjong, Bejeweled, solitaire, etc. are all popular with women. That's not a slight against women at all, they just don't prefer the types of games most men do.
This comment was edited on May 22, 15:40.

#35
while I do agree with some of what you say, you seem to see it exactly the wrong way around. the benefit of none comercial mod making IS that you are not tied to any proven sales numbers and can freaking do whatever you want.what's the point otherwise? you do it for passion and fun, then enjoy the freedom and go wild with your imagination ( if you got one). but hey.. the red orchestra team is obviously heaviloy heading for comercial busines, (after all they are trying to sell merchandise stuff alerady)- thus they are right on track with a military shooter.
I am also not sure who the casual gamer actually is,or will be. this is a growing undustry still in its infants but soon to be entertainment as popular as cinema. there are many many casual people outside that haven't even tried games yet. not to forget that women still find little to no games that could catch their interest.

Here's my rundown:

Definately not the mod for those who like to run and gun. Red Orchestra is designed to be more realistic than most fps:ers out there. You'll find you enjoy it a lot more if you get a few buddies (real or just guys on the server) and make a squad. Then move together towrads your objective using some sort of bounding or at least in some sort of a formation. Becuase the guns act realistic (any decent shot kills and there is even bullet drop over distance) you'll see that the group with more firepower and skill will win everytime even against the guy who is a CS master. Running out in the open alone will get you killed really fast.

Learn to use the map (defaults to "o" key). You can see your objectives and know who holds them. Escape from the idea that one man is the key. It's all about teamwork. Slow down and make the move when the time is right.

It's a beta, so there are some weird bugs...but if you have the latest UT2k4 patch and are willing to give it more than 2 minutes (it takes time to get used to the iron sights) then you just might enjoy it. OH, ironsights...SO nice. You can shoot from the hip but your accuracy isn't all that good. Pull up your ironsights and move in as a team. See a pattern here? =)

Tomas' final score: 8/10 (for a beta - needs more work and some polishing but man...it's got a lot of potential.)

This comment was edited on May 22, 13:40.

#32

And what exactly do you have in mind then if you don't want sci fi or a war setting? I'm quite serious, what do you want from people who aren't getting paid and work on a mod in their free time? You want some creative completely divergent mod? I don't think so. It's not going to happen, because these war games are proven formulas that work. Anything else has a small chance of succeeding (and I don't just mean popularity, I also mean technically excellent as well). Besides, wouldn't a group like that just license the engine and get a publisher, effectively removing any "mod" status from their work and turning into a full fledged game? Ohh, but I forgot in this million dollar a game industry you'll be likely to find any publisher willing to fund such a roll of the dice. Let's be honest here too, I can't really blame publishers for being weary when critically acclaimed games sell poorly and hackneyed crap sells like hotcakes. If you want to point the finger at someone, point it at the casual consumer who is heart of this industry, not hardcore gamers like you and I.

The US however have made a massive push in the last 15 years or so to upgrade their equipment to be 10x better than everyone elses

americans make terrible guns...ill take a slightly pointy stick over an m-16 anyday

Supporter of "The Only Good fredster Is A Dead fredster" fan club

The Former Leader and Victor of the rebel movement against the dark Lord Surewood and his fiendish cohorts(bunko)

#27.
whatever floats your boat honey

"The whole concept of guys running around in powered body armour taking shots at each other is going to seem sooo dated within a very few years."

oh man.. maybe you didn't bother to read more than the first posts, but it was already stated, that none ww2 shouldn't necessarily mean Scifi Quake or UT style. its just funny , cause most replies here quite exactly prove my complaint, since the users here seem to have already a problem imagining anything else.

on a sidenote, are you aware you are talking about GAMES?
what's to be dated about powered body armour unless in real world simulations? its games.. anything goes..
and isn't it slightly stupid when some people even go so far demanding more and more realistic war games? some seem to forget, that war isn't a tv show in the first place. real realistic war ain't funny my dear kids.

oh well.. I better give this up here

I am getting seriously worried! Bicycle Repairman is nowhere to be seen... What time does he usually get home from work? Does anybody know? It's just not like him not to show up at these things... That's it!!! I'm calling the police!

Haha, actually I was busy being drunk, it was released friday night where I live. now I'm hungover and DLing the mod, see you on the servers out there!


Currently Downloading!:
Red Orchestra 2.0 For UT2004!
This comment was edited on May 22, 05:01.

yeah.. sure.. ww2 is modern combat

Actually yea it is. In the grand scheme of things a 60 year old war is modern. You do realize that up alot of vehicles and weapons still used as recent as 10 years ago were made and/or designed 30 to 50 years ago? Hell alot of countries do still use combat equipment that old.
The US however have made a massive push in the last 15 years or so to upgrade their equipment to be 10x better than everyone elses. Great way to spend your tax dollars.

EDIT: As an example...http://www.army-technology.com/projects/apache/
Apache Helicopter was brought into US service 20 years ago, and is still used to this day in Iraq and Afghanistan. Prior to that it probably took 20+ years to develop and test the Apache.

This comment was edited on May 22, 03:50.

Red Orchestra is very innovative in its own right. It really isn't just another WWII FPS. I would compare it the closest to America's army in that it tries to capture all the elements of WWII infantry combat. WWII isn't that different from modern combat, so it really should cater to all types. RO's graphics top most shooters out right now. The details on the uniforms are even exact.

Vehicles would be an interesting addition, and from what I've heard, it is under consideration.

Why WWII... because it's huge, varied and shaped the modern world. There hasn't been a war since that was anything more than a pimple on a hippo's ass. Also, any troop combat after Korea-ish gets uninteresting from a historical perspective. How excited would you be about a game where the vast majority of clashes are settled by a mortar or air strike? Acceptable kill ratios these days are in the 100s to 1 and up. An accurate portrayal of modern war would make Serious Sam's body count seem restrained.

The whole concept of guys running around in powered body armour taking shots at each other is going to seem sooo dated within a very few years.

Actually I was trying to say no one cares about your I hate WW2 whining, especially in a thread about a f'in WW2 mod, but the whiny kid explanation works reasonably well I suppose.

#6, 8, 11, 14, 15, 24, 25.
Ok, you're not interested.. we understand now. No need for everyone to get worked up about this.

I think #4 really started it with his WW2 mod comment. Just because it's not a WW2 game, doesn't mean the WW2 mod isn't any good. I like how realistic it is compared to other WW2 games. Would be nice if they added vehicles though.

I am getting seriously worried! Bicycle Repairman is nowhere to be seen...

He might be busy playing the mod. I've been coming on late too lately because of work.. but he might have gone out tonite. It's Friday afterall.