that is true but quake 3 is the start of that... even though raven and ritual were companies that from the start were using id engines but they just released a game here and here. And of course American McGee would use a id engine =P that would almost be given lol

There has only been a few games where game development teams have used John Carmacks engines.

Yeah, only a few:

Heretic, Hexen, Hexen II, Heretic II, Soldier Of Fortune 1 & 2, Kingpin, Half-Life, Half-Life: Opposing Force, Half-Life: Counter-Strike, Daikatana, Sin, Heavy Metal: Fakk 2, Star Trek: Elite Force & EF2, Anachronox, American McGee’s Alice, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Medal of Honor, Jedi Knight 2 & Jedi Outcast.

Just to name a few. Basically any game from Raven, and most games from Ritual have been strictly Id only engines. So while I agree that most of Id's revenue comes from their games (just think of how many platforms Quake 3 has been ported to), to say that there's only "a few games" that use ID engines isn't fair.


PZ
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Reading: Douglas Adams' "Life, The Universe, and Everything"
Listening To: Red Hot Chilli Peppers Mixed CD
This comment was edited on Apr 1, 15:36.

I have to stand on the side of those who said id software is short for Ideas from the Deep originally back way before Wolf 3D when Commander Keen and their earlier games were being made. Also id software makes over 90% of their income from game sales and not engine licensing... There has only been a few games where game development teams have used John Carmacks engines.

Bla bla bla..

I really don't care...If id makes another cool game that is fun to play, I will buy it. So far, all their major games have fit the bill.

The only reason I find this thread entertaining is because I am watching porn at the same time.

You don't have abstract types for various kinds of AI, you have classes for RobotMechCommander or FlyingTooperThingy (I don't remember the names of Quake 2 monsters but you get the idea). It seems to me that things that are usually filled out in game code are actually done explicitly in the engine source code, in Quake 2 at any rate (which is actually weird since the Quake engine game code components and QuakeC are really excellent). There are other weird Quake 2 specific things in the code too, but that's just one that comes to mind.

I think I get what you mean, however that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the same in the engine they actually license out?

has said on a number of occasions that engine licensing accounts for just a small fraction of their revenue

That's funny, because I remember an interview with Carmack in which he said the exact opposite, but this was a long time ago, and I'm not 100% sure, so I might be wrong.


sniper rifle zoom

I actually prefer it that way, and it wouldn't seem such a large leap of logic to imagine that they preferred it that way, thus coded it that way. Really, why would you ever need to move when zoomed in? (Not even counting the fact that it's basically bloody hindering awkward to try to move while your view is at zoom 50)
The only time, I think, when you'd need to move is if your target left your field of fire, in which case you'd have to zoom out to reacquire him anyways, or if you're being nailed up your ass by some trooper standing right behind you. In either case, you'd have to unzoom, so the engine doing it automatically to me always just seemed a nice shortcut.

I never had any problems saving, so...

Like I said, to each his own. In my book they still rule.

Creston

I usually don't feed the trolls, but what the hell...

The per-monster AI is also equally retarded.

A listing of some files the Quake2 source code:
m_gladiator.c
m_gunner.c
m_hover.c
m_infantry.c
m_insane.c
m_medic.c
m_mutant.c
m_parasite.c
m_soldier.c
m_supertank.c
m_tank.c
etc.

So ha ha. You're wrong.

By the way, you can't click in the save menu, it's all keyboard driven

Really? In RTCW, ST:EF, JK2, etc., etc., you can't use the mouse in the menu system? You have to use the keyboard? Why, that seems rather old-fashioned to me. Then again, maybe you've just not played any games in the last 4 or 5 years. Or maybe ha ha you're wrong.

Okay, I'm tired of the trolls again. They can just look in the source for themselves if they want to whine some more.

And I accept your apology.

The scary thing is, I brought up this thread knowing exactly what would be in it... "id makes engines", the meaning of "id"... Id vs. Epic engines... Tribes as the first mp only shooter... and somebody pointing out this has all been said before They should just script it, save everyone the trouble. Or post a FAQ for these threads. On the other hand that would eliminate the fun of posting, so I guess not...

It's id...as in the id, the ego, and the superego. Go read some Freud. Or install Wolfenstein 3D and look at the Help page.

http://www.kmfdm.net/

That sniper rifle thing is the most arbitrary, unfounded complaint I've EVER heard. Try this: fov (low number) then walk around. *shock* ZOOMED IN AND MOVING! Quake3 has a zoom too, and you can move to your heart's content convincing me that you know nothing about engines. They have access to the ENGINE source, so they can change it, even if the sniper rifle really was in the engine (although it's not)

The per-monster AI is also equally retarded. By the way, you can't click in the save menu, it's all keyboard driven in Q1 and Q2, and Q3 didn't have one, leading me to think again you don't know what you're talking about.

There's so many other factual inaccuracies, I don't even know where to begin. How the hell can a save menu be unintuitive? Engine licences only make a fraction of sales? Have you even ever played an id game, it sure looks like you haven't!

This comment was edited on Mar 27, 14:05.

They (id) make the ONLY games worth playing!

I feel very sad for you.

Well, I could, but it wouldn't mean shit to me, so I'll take your word for it, Ratty.

I'm no game engine guru. Really, you don't need to know squat about programming not to notice what I'm talking about. I don't have the source handy anymore so specifics aren't on the tip of my tongue any more, but for example, you'll notice class names are extremely Quake 2 specific. You don't have abstract types for various kinds of AI, you have classes for RobotMechCommander or FlyingTooperThingy (I don't remember the names of Quake 2 monsters but you get the idea). It seems to me that things that are usually filled out in game code are actually done explicitly in the engine source code, in Quake 2 at any rate (which is actually weird since the Quake engine game code components and QuakeC are really excellent). There are other weird Quake 2 specific things in the code too, but that's just one that comes to mind.

I recall two high profile games that licensed Quake technology and then switched to another engine when they figured out it how much work it would be to try and adapt it to their own games. One was DNF and I forget the other one. id has said on a number of occasions that engine licensing accounts for just a small fraction of their revenue. The real bucks come from the games they make, so their strategy of making a game just for themselves, just for the game they're working on is a sound one. I'm not criticizing it. I'm just pointing out that a good engine is a relative concept. There are benefits and liabilities to be weighed in engine architecture. I most definitely recognize the benefits but I'm suggesting people not forget the liabilities.

A side note on Quake engined games. I notice two constants with these games that bug the hell out of me. The first is the sniper rifle. If you move while zoomed in with the sniper rifle in any quake engined game, you unzoom. You can only stay zoomed in if you're standing still. Only Quake engined games do this in my experience, and they ALL do it. It seems unlikely that developers just decided they liked that "feature" and that they ALL kept it in. I have to wonder if all the sniper rifle code is embedded in the engine code rather than the game code. I'll have to remember to take a look someday. The second is the save menu. I have always found it unintuitive and also unresponsive. Sometimes I click on a save slot and it won't save, like I'm not clicking on the right pixel or seomthing. And other menu annoyances, but all the Quake-engined games I've played do this. Now putting the menu code in the engine source would be insane, IMHO, especially considering, again, just how good QuakeC is, but I suspect that's just what they did.

Why are you assuming that they don't place things where they do the most for gameplay? And why are you assuming that there is a conflict between good looks and gameplay?

I'm not making that up. That's what the designers said they did in a couple of Doom3 interviews. They placed the monsters where they would look their best, even though they wanted to do otherwise a few times. That also answers your second question.

The Doom3 engine would probably be great for other dark, shadowy, horror games that take place largely in small cramped corridors and rooms and occasional small outdoor areas. But for other games I think developers would do weel to look elsewhere.

On where the name id came from:

According to David Kushner's Masters of Doom, p.31 --John Romero and Lane Roathe combined their one man companies into "Ideas From the Deep."

p.57 -- when they made "Dangerous Dave in Copyright Infringement" they used the name "Ideas From the Deep."

p.77 -- when they left to form their own company they shortened "Ideas From the Deep" to "id" for "in demand." It is said that they didn't mind that "id" also stood for "the part of the brain that operates on teh pleasure principal."

There are also a couple of other mentions of "Ideas From the Deep" elsewhere in the book. So, at least according to that book, id WAS a shortening of Ideas From the Deep.

www.popularculturegaming.tk

They'd have to address cheating. Probably put in a vote/kick system to get rid of cheaters like we do in T2.

Chaos was the best mod in Q2, so much fun.

Yep, the dynamic lighting in Q3 was done with a post process, which is the most efficient thing to do, but it limits the ability to brighten dark areas. I remember this confused me (not knowing much about the inner workings of 3d engines at the time) while working on Surivival 9mm and trying to add a nightvision feature.

Nothing beats id's deathmatching to me. Mods made up for other parts, I remember Action Quake 2 and Rocket Arena 2.. Both wicked cool mods at the time. Man, those were the times..

And yes, doom3 should have coop! Let's all send fanmails to Sven

..and an easier-to-work-with game source than q3.

I won't flame you but I don't think I agree with you. Take a peak at the now-public source code for Quake and Quake 2 sometime to see what I mean

Well, I could, but it wouldn't mean shit to me, so I'll take your word for it, Ratty.

I don't really know about easily adaptable etc. But then again, when I think about it, I can't really see that Unreal was adapted to any other use besides a FPS either? I think really Lithtech is the only thing that was every made into something else besides an FPS.

For me, it's just the fact (which is a fact for me, might not be that way for someone else) that EVERY single Quake engine game I played worked like a charm. No hassle. No crashes. No whining shit about my drivers not being supported. NO issues whatsoever connecting to a multiplayer game, and solid as hell netcode. It...Just...Fucking...Worked!

With all the other engines, I had SOME problems at some point. Most noticeably just the drivers corrupting stuff, crashing, needing to downgrade etc.

Not saying Unreal isn't a great engine, but my computer(s) just seem to have a big John Carmack Smiley imprinted on them.

To each his own.

Creston

Edit : Not sure where / when I read it, but I read something, somewhere, sometime, that stated it was pronounced as Eye Dee. Sounds cooler anyways.

This comment was edited on Mar 27, 02:33.

At least some sources on google say that Ideas from the Deep is where they came up with the name id software - although maybe now the name just refers to the "id" from psychology.

Riiiight. Some sources on google? Thats very credible.

Trust me, id = freuds id when it comes to the game company.

Ideas of the deep? Is that what it stands for?

No, Id is a part of your personality. Fruedian mumbo jumbo....

Actually, I believe that Q may be right. Lane Roathe, Tom Hall, and John Romero founded a game company named Ideas from the Deep (I don't know if Carmack was involved or not). At least some sources on google say that Ideas from the Deep is where they came up with the name id software - although maybe now the name just refers to the "id" from psychology.

I have fond memories of playing their Softdisk games on my Apple IIGS - before there was Wolfenstein 3D or Commander Keen, I played their Dark Designs RPG series, Rescue Rover, and Legend of the Star Axe.

This comment was edited on Mar 27, 01:14.

Am I the only one that thinks team arena is awesome? It adds so much more gameplay and variables to quake3. The only downside to it was the multiplayer because nobody friggen gave it a chance

Kreilo, you missed the whole point of "technological innovation aside"

Maybe I should have said... It's been about about a decade since id produced a product that wasn't preceeded or suffixed with a number.

Ah. At least one decomposition of a game is into 1) technology, 2) gameplay, and 3) story. I'd say it's pretty narrow to classify just "story" as the place for creativity.

For example, Tetris had creative gameplay even though it had no story. Half-life had a creative story even though it only marginally extended FPS gameplay (NPC's).

I think that decomposition is what people are getting at when they say, "I don't care if id games have a story, they're just fun to play." I agree; I definitely prefer creativity in either or both areas (or more). Thanks for clearing up your point of view, though :).

Exactly. I don't know why but it seems trendy for the sheep to keep saying 'iD only makes good engines...'. That's just bullshit. I've had a huge number of playing hours from Q1 thru Q3A. Their games don't lack playability.

This comment was edited on Mar 26, 23:11.