I saw this from the designer for Dungeon Siege II at http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/474/474733p1.html . It echoes my sentiments that consoles are the future and there is nothing in the console equation that makes them inherently "scary":

"Personally, I find trends in game development fascinating, and one of the most interesting things I saw in 2003 was the success of RPGs with a traditionally PC RPG-type design being released on consoles. Examples like Knights of the Old Republic, Deus Ex: Invisible War, Final Fantasy XI, and last year's Morrowind are blurring the line that separates console and PC RPGs.

There are a number of reasons why this is happening. For one thing, there is now a console audience for the more mature, complex elements that have typified PC RPGs. Second, PC technology has largely exceeded the needs that people have for it. As a result, consoles have largely caught up to most gamers' PCs in terms of power, and at a lower price point. "

> how did this turn out to a financial debate?

Well I think it was the abundance of utterly false statements such as "Thief 1 sold like shit, it did not sell enough to warrant a sequel." which led to this particular educational diversion

Out of curiousity, what is your "looks like a mod for DX:IW" idea based on?

Ah yes! Now I remember, Scottish Martial Arts was the other defender besides Cyric, and now both are here.

*Darth Vader imitation* The circle is now complete.

But bad jokes aside, how did this turn out to a financial debate? The topic is "Will Thief: Whatever suck just like DX:IW?" Of course, that depends if you thought DX:IW sucked...which 2 people on the whole bluesewns forum don't.

But suck is maybe too strong a word. Extremly mediocre and bland is more fitting. DX:IW wasnt a bad game, but not good either. And right now Thief looks like a mod for DX:IW. But hey why not? They already got a great engine, just change the textures and a few models and maps, and poof, you got a new game to sell (to the xbox).




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Always expect the worst and you will never be dissapointed

System Shock 2 sold reasonably well, but definitely not to "blockbuster" levels. As I recall, Terra Nova was a major loss (although a brilliant game, IMHO, and possibly too early for its time if you look at all the squad-based tactical games that are out now...) and the later deal(s) with EA just compounded things.

May 24th, 2000. The day I learned that Looking Glass was to be no more.

R.I.P. LGS.

Forever holding LGS in high regard,
Ray



-------------------------------------------------------
Time does not heal, but it does numb.
http://users.ign.com/collection/RayMarden
http://www.guzzlefish.com/collection.php?username=ray_marden
I love you, mom.

> Thief 1 and 2 both sold poorly and yet we still have another sequel coming.

There seems to be a popular belief that nothing Looking Glass made ever sold. If that were the case, they could not possibly have made so many games (great or otherwise (they were all great, though))

AFAIK...
The Ultima Underworlds sold very well
System Shock sold reasonably well (contrary to popular belief)
System Shock 2 didn't do much more than break even
Terra Nova lost money
British Open Championship Golf lost money
Flight Unlimited had excellent sales
I don't know about Flight 2
Flight 3 lost money? (the sim was brilliant, but EA didn't market it!)
Thief sold very well and made Looking Glass some millions of dollars profit (someone at LGS pointed this out once after similar comments were made)
I don't know about Thief 2, but would hazard a guess that it also sold well

Sadly LGS were in too bad a financial state for the Thief sales to prevent them from closing.
This comment was edited on Jan 24, 05:34.

While PC gaming is certainly in a bit of slump right now, you have a highly idealized and nostalgic view of what gaming was 6 years ago.

Perhaps this will help clear things up for, what I assume to be, the younger posters. Do you see threads like this for every bad game or every bad port, no of course not, you want to make a bad xbox\PC port game, fine go right ahead call it Shadow Sneaker: BoBo the Thief, but don’t mess up an Icon from a different age. When the Thief games came out, video games weren’t nearly as mainstream as they are today; PC gamers were a tiny, tiny crowd. It was almost like Interplays slogan “By Gamers for Gamers” (Well, till they shut down Black Isle, die you bastards.), They made games they would be proud to put their name on, they didn’t sell out if Microsoft accidentally air-dropped bags of money on their door stop, certain things don’t work on certain systems, I almost puke when I think of what the Baldurs Gate series would be like on the xbox. Did Thief set sell through records, no it sure didn’t, but I don’t know any PC gamer that doesn’t speak of Thief with much due reverence when comparing it to a lot of shit out there today, or perhaps like when a relative dies, you realize how much for granted you took them and how much you miss what you didn’t even know you had. Maybe I am elitist in my thinking, and maybe DX:IW is a okay xbox game (it is a terrible PC game no matter what), but it sure as hell isn’t the game I skipped Calculus to play. If I had billions of dollars I would buy Black Isle, Looking Glass, Westwood and the like, they would make small niche games nobody buys and I would be the happiest gamer around. Remember it is market size, you want as big a piece of the pie as possible, and yes, they dumb down games to get it, I know nothing about cooking, my sister went to culinary school, you better believe a salesmen would have a harder time selling a gee wiz-bang frying pan to my sister who knows a good pan from a bad pan then to me, who he could sell a hub cab and call it the second coming. I know what Thief II did and what Thief 3 can do, and I hope to God Ion Storm does too.

O, yeah I loved playing a 2 yr old console game that made my $3,500, top of the line, I-don't-have-a-girlfriend PC almost melt.
--Zepher (referencing Halo)

Eidos has over $100 million cash (check finance.yahoo.com). They are also profitable. Some of the agrarian Marxist types in here think that somehow profit is evil and that Eidos/Ion Storm should only want to make a little money in order to satisfy only PC Gamers. This is insane thinking.

As PC Gaming wanes, Console gaming waxes. There is nothing about Spector's "Thinking Man's Games" that makes them incompatable with consoles. Granted, Spector and friends made some bad decisions in DXIW (tried to squeeze too much technology in)... but these problems will probably be fixed in Thief 3.

Eidos has enough cash to allow Warren Spector freedom to create games as he sees fit - I just hope they grant him the resources and freedom he needs to get this stuff done. If not, he's gonna take the other top designers away to another Publisher - where they can get more shelf space and more resources.

For a roleplaying game, it sold well enough. That it doesn't sell as much as a Sims expansion pack, pff, those things sell 58million copies a day. David Gaider seemed well pleased with the sales of KotOR for PC on their boards, but yes, obviously it didn't sell as well as it did for the Xbox (which shattered all records). However, considering that it was the work of six months to do the port for the PC version, Bioware was very pleased with the sales numbers for that selfsame PC version.

True, the sales charts don't mean a whole lot when over half of the games are Sims titles. However NWN stayed in the top 10 for 3 months in comparison to the two weeks of KotOR. IW hasn't breached the top ten but for all we know it could be howevering at 11 and thus still be doing quite well for itself. I guess we'll just have to wait for sales numbers to be released.

Did you read the ttlg article I linked? Unless TTLG got it all wrong a lot of what you say isn't entirely correct. Additionally, according to TTLG, Thief did in fact make quite a bit of money for LGS and Eidos. Read the article it's a good one.

PC KotOR sales haven't been as hot as you seem to suggest

For a roleplaying game, it sold well enough. That it doesn't sell as much as a Sims expansion pack, pff, those things sell 58million copies a day. David Gaider seemed well pleased with the sales of KotOR for PC on their boards, but yes, obviously it didn't sell as well as it did for the Xbox (which shattered all records). However, considering that it was the work of six months to do the port for the PC version, Bioware was very pleased with the sales numbers for that selfsame PC version.

I doubt seriously that Ion Storm is going to be so pleased about their numbers...


If Thief proves anything it's that you don't need to sell well in order to get a sequel.

You will note that in my original post I specifically stated "With Eidos at the helm."
Thief 1 & 2 were made by a developer who made games to make games, not to make money. They made games because they loved it, and they wanted to make the best game possible. They didn't have an Eidos, or an EA, or any other soulless corporate wh0re breathing down their necks demanding that they churn out another million selling Half Life Clone every three months.
They made the game THEY wanted to make, knowing full well it wouldn't resonate with a lot of gamers (let's be frank here, the majority of the PC gamers is the "U SUK D00D!! LOLOLOL!!!!111!!!!!1!1!" death matching bunnyhopper counterstrike cheatwhore. Well, ok, at least a large portion is anyways. They would NEVER play something like Thief, or Deus Ex, because it's not about being Teh K1NG!!!!)

When Warren put together Ion Austin, they were like that too, but since then Ion Dalles closed, Eidos has lost a shitload of money, and I just don't think they have that luxury anymore. Their games now HAVE to sell well, and thus they cannot be these specialised niche games anymore, and thus they have to pander to the lowest common denominator.
Unfortunately for them, Ex Deus didn't even resonate with the counterstrike gimps.

Again my point is that your belief that DX is now a dead franchise because of the IW poor sales has no basis.

I have no solid evidence, no. I do have poor sales numbers, and the fact that the franchise is in the hands of Eidos for you. Put two and two together, realise we still have no sequel to Anachronox, which was fucking DESIGNED to be a two game story, and perhaps you'll see what I'm getting at...

Incorrect, when LGS died they were programming the Siege Engine which was going to power Thief 3

I should have explained that better. Yes, LGS were working on Thief 3, however, they ran out of money, and couldn't finish it, even though they desperately wanted to. Their last two games before Thief 3, IIRC, were Thief and Thief 2. Had Thief (2) sold better, LGS wouldn't have been out of money, and would have been able to finish Thief 3. Undoubtedly much better than what Ion will make of it.


If Ion Storm hadn't been developing Deus Ex : IW, do you really think they'd have picked up the Thief franchise?
Yes.

Ok, fair enough. I don't think so, but obviously the only one who really knows the truth is either Warren or some corporate Eidos wh0re.

Creston

Earlier in the thread you made a comment about how poor IW sales will kill the franchise. Thief 1 and 2 both sold poorly and yet we still have another sequel coming.

Thief was a small to moderate budget game, and Thief 2, which used pretty much the same engine and a majority of the same resources, was definately low budget to produce. These types of games don't need to sell well.

On the other hand, DX:IW & Thief: GenericXBOXName are big budget games which need to sell big numbers. DX is clearly an unmitigated disaster and if Thief doesn't sell well as well there will be repercussions

So? It didn't seem to bother KotOR PC sales any.

PC KotOR sales haven't been as hot as you seem to suggest. It debuted at 3rd place http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/thesimsmakinmagic/news_6085017.html then dropped to 7th http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/thesimsmakinmagic/news_6085264.html then disappeared entirely http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/thesimsmakinmagic/news_6085735.html .

Would you rather have gamers be bitching at you because your game is delayed, or because it fucking sucks? I know which one I'd pick, so did Bioware apparently.

Either way has it's downsides but yes to delay would have been the better course of action.

And your point is...?

My point is that Thief 1 sold like shit, it did not sell enough to warrant a sequel. And yet we got a sequel. Thief 2 also sold like shit and yet LGS's final project was the Siege engine which was going to be used for Thief 3. LGS died but ISA picked up Thief 3 despite the fact that the franchise had already proven to be a poor seller. DX1 sold very well, IW like shit. If Thief proves anything it's that you don't need to sell well in order to get a sequel. Again my point is that your belief that DX is now a dead franchise because of the IW poor sales has no basis.

Do you think that with these sales Deus Ex will see another game?

Yes. See above.

Let's not forget that the original Thief 3 (and its developer with it) was canned BECAUSE 1 & 2 sold like shit.

Incorrect, when LGS died they were programming the Siege Engine which was going to power Thief 3. Additionally poor Thief sales were not the only reason LGS folded. http://www.ttlg.com/articles/lgsclosing.asp

If Ion Storm hadn't been developing Deus Ex : IW, do you really think they'd have picked up the Thief franchise?

Yes.

This comment was edited on Jan 23, 20:05.

What you describe are the characteristics of a rushed port, not a dumbed down game.

That's YOUR opinion. Many people, myself included, feel differently. But, you're right, I should also mention
- No more ammo.
- No more skills.
- No more character growth.
- No more passwords / typing.
- 1/3 of the length.

Need I go on?

Had Ion Storm done that there would have been a huge uproar from the PC community. "You released on Console First you backstabbers!!!!11!!11!1!"

So? It didn't seem to bother KotOR PC sales any. Would you rather have gamers be bitching at you because your game is delayed, or because it fucking sucks? I know which one I'd pick, so did Bioware apparently.

Earlier in the thread you made a comment about how poor IW sales will kill the franchise. Thief 1 and 2 both sold poorly and yet we still have another sequel coming.

And your point is...? Do you think that with these sales Deus Ex will see another game? With Eidos at the helm?
The Thief franchise got picked up almost for free, they were already doing an engine and a game that focussed on many of the requirements for a Thief game, doing one wasn't such a massive investment. Let's not forget that the original Thief 3 (and its developer with it) was canned BECAUSE 1 & 2 sold like shit.

If Ion Storm hadn't been developing Deus Ex : IW, do you really think they'd have picked up the Thief franchise?

Creston

This comment was edited on Jan 23, 18:31.

Most of us also never said such a thing in regard to games in general. We are specifically talking about Ex Deus : IW, which was so dumbed down it's not even funny anymore. Global settings only save in an in game save? (Where else will you save them on a console?) Menu items that you could only get out of by pressing the same key again, and you couldn't switch from one menu to another, you HAD to go back to your normal view first? (How else would you do it on a controller with only 8 or so buttons?)
Maps that fit in 64 megs of memory, when the last PC gamesplayer who only had 64 megs of memory died 7 years ago? (Well, the Xbox doesn't have more than 64, so what else are we going to do? Oh that's right, lie about it, nice going Warren.) Mouselag set to 75? Multiple .ini settings set to Xbox standards? What would you call it BESIDES dumbing down? (And yes, Scottish, we know you like it better than the original )

What you describe are the characteristics of a rushed port, not a dumbed down game.

Release it on the console, then take the time to make a BETTER game for the PC (although that's arguable, over which version someone prefers, but at least TECHNICALLY it's a lot better). Similarly to KotOR.
Ion Storm chose to go the easy way, and expected their 100.000+ fans that hold Deus Ex as the ultimate pinnacle in gaming to just accept this weak excuse for a PC game as the next evolution or something.

Had Ion Storm done that there would have been a huge uproar from the PC community. "You released on Console First you backstabbers!!!!11!!11!1!" Gamers are inheritly bitchy people and to pretend otherwise is stupid.

And Thief is one of THE most respected franchises on the PC, even though Thief and Thief 2 unfortunately sold like crap.

Earlier in the thread you made a comment about how poor IW sales will kill the franchise. Thief 1 and 2 both sold poorly and yet we still have another sequel coming.

"Which means what, exactly? That doesn't mean that they are GREAT games. Just because my turd flushes better down one toilet than the other, doesn't mean it's not a turd. "



Dude you made spit soda all ove my keyboard too funny keep it coming.



I think it's dumb these companies try to expand the base for these type's of games. Instead of being happy selling a few hundred thousand games on the PC they have to dumb it down and still only sell a few hundred thousand while pissing off the people that made it possable for them to make a part 2(or 3 as in thief).


Some games I thought were good in 3rd person veiw that were good....Heretic 2.....Drakan(?)...nothing else comes to mind.

Right on the spot, Creston

Warren needs to know that it will not take that many shitty games to bring down his fame. If Thief 3 ends up to be crap, then all his reputation gets flushed down the toilet together with it also.

Making Thief 3 kickass is very critical to your career, Warren.

Classic Theif... Thief Gold... and even Thief II: The Metal Age, were amazing and, daresay, revolutionary games that aroused my interest in PC games. I say that these games were revolutionary, because never before in a game had I taken on not only the role of the "bad guy" (likeable as he may be), and never before had a game relied so heavily upon stealth and wit. First-Person Sneaking it was called, a new genre for a game that really couldn't be classified as anything else. From the very beginning I was obsessed with the series, and with the demise of Looking Glass studios I thought I would never see another game with my favorite anti-hero Garrett. That of course, wasn't going to stop me from enjoying Thief Gold (which even now I still play and love it) and Thief II (which unfortunately and accidentally got scratched, boy was i pissed).

The announcement of Thief III almost killed me, because I was not just impressed with the first two games, but I was obsessed. Another chance to take the role of Garrett and take to the streets and give those rich nobles what they deserved brought a smile to my face before I even heard a single fact of information about the games develoment aside from rumor. I am still eagerly awaiting the release of the new game, and it may just be my enthusiasm that's left over from my greatness of the last games. After reading people's comments here, however, my opinion has changed slightly.

Allow me to explain myself. I am more accurately disappointed in the poor reviews I've seen from gamers on a game that hasn't been released yet. I never played DX: IW, so I can't attest one way or another to Ion Storm's production of the game. But i know what i've heard and what I've seen of the new Thief installment, and I think that everyone's negativity has kept me from awaiting the game any less eagerly than before. I can't begin to explain how disappointed I will be if the game doesn't live up to my expectations (an believe me, I'm trying not to set my expectations too high) but I think that the quality of the previous two games does have to say something about the potential of the third.

Ion's decision to include a number of the developers from (now deceased) Looking Glass studios also brightened my hopes. These are the people who made the first games so great, I hope they'll have important input to keep the third up to the same quiality. Now the graphics are something I've heard people complain about, and that really bothers me. I have a crap-ass six-year old computer that barely ran Thief II. The architecture and design for Thief has always inspired me but the graphics themselves have never been 'breathtaking' and on my old computer they were even less impressive. The guards were blocky and generic, and their movement always seemed glitchy some how. But that never took away from the games' granduer, and to hear people complain about some low-res screen from the unfinished product of Thief 3 is a little irritating. I think some people may have been spoiled or become accustomed to the amazing graphics that many new games are sporting, and that can understandably be labeled breathtaking.

Thief III's graphics certainly seem well-suited to do what they have to, which is to support the gameplay. The gameplay itself is what made the games the popular hits that they became. The skills and abilities of a master thief are something unique to the series, and I think they've been expanded for the better in the new game. Visual shadows that the guards respond to if they see, guards who will at random check corners and niches as an addded security issue are impressive. Replacing the sword with a dagger is a move that I am all for. There were times in the old games that I had played the game so much I could simply take out my sword and go head-to-head with four guards and still go on to finish off the level. No more all-out melee when you're stuck with a dagger. That forces a person to rely more on thier thieving abilities.

All the old features of the game are still there and seem just as effective as ever, and now Garrett can climb walls. Very D&D-esque, and very thief-like. Gameplay and graphics are also there for the support of the games story, which I loved following through Thief: the Dark Project and into Thief II: The Metal Age. Thief II has the same potential to bring a story that the gamers can get involved and and feel like it's their story instead of just Garrett's.

There are probably people reading this who are already thinking of ways to flame me and insult me, but we're both fnas of the classic Thief series, and there's no reason to get so worked up over a video game. Some people have already given up on this game and won't even buy it out of spite, but not me. I'm sure some people will think me stupid for going out and buying the game first chance I get, but I loved the last two games so much that I can't resist the appeal of a new adventure with my favorite rogue, Garrett. I'm not making any predictions and reactions to the game itself since I haven't played it yet. All that I'm saying, is that I, for one, will reserve my judgement of the game itself for when I have actually had the chance to play it through.

I am just glad (and hope!) that Ion Storm is not working on System Shock 3

You cannot make anything fool-proof. The fools are too inventive

There are some EXCELLENT games on the XBox

Nobody here is denying that. Ok everyone is denying that, I'll be a little more moderate, and say that there are some good games on Xbox. I quite liked Apex, myself. And it has KotOR, which by itself makes it a console worth buying. I also agree wholeheartedly with the statement below that says "Because they ruined the PC versions".

This does not mean that all games are dumbed down for the masses - there will always be a market for games for intelligent gamers

Most of us also never said such a thing in regard to games in general. We are specifically talking about Ex Deus : IW, which was so dumbed down it's not even funny anymore. Global settings only save in an in game save? (Where else will you save them on a console?) Menu items that you could only get out of by pressing the same key again, and you couldn't switch from one menu to another, you HAD to go back to your normal view first? (How else would you do it on a controller with only 8 or so buttons?)
Maps that fit in 64 megs of memory, when the last PC gamesplayer who only had 64 megs of memory died 7 years ago? (Well, the Xbox doesn't have more than 64, so what else are we going to do? Oh that's right, lie about it, nice going Warren.) Mouselag set to 75? Multiple .ini settings set to Xbox standards? What would you call it BESIDES dumbing down? (And yes, Scottish, we know you like it better than the original )

DXIW, Return of the King, and several other games ALL played better on the XBox than the PC.

Which means what, exactly? That doesn't mean that they are GREAT games. Just because my turd flushes better down one toilet than the other, doesn't mean it's not a turd.

It doesn't mean that the PC is somehow inferior to the Xbox. The Xbox contains hardware I threw out 3 years ago. I EXPECT games to look and play better on my PC than on the Xbox. Because they CAN.

It means that Ion Storm built an Xbox game and released it on the PC without ANY modifications whatsoever. Rumors of a second patch in which Ion will make some deeper, gameplay specific modifications have long since died out, and considering the game is selling like crap anyways, I doubt we'll ever see it.

Anyway PC-only gamers
There is NOTHING wrong with being a PC only gamer. There is NOTHING wrong with being angry over the fact that MANY of the franchises that started on the PC are now switching to consoles, in some cases even exclusively. There is NOTHING wrong with being disappointed or even angry at certain development houses who piss on their fanbase, and then expect us to say thank you for the honor.

There WOULD be something wrong if we automatically bashed every game to come out for every console, but guess what, I own a PSX2, and think GTA3 is Teh Bomb, FFX is Teh Bomb, World Series Baseball 2k3 (and 2k4 presumably) is Teh Bomb, etc.
And now that I mentioned GTA3, see how it also can be done? Release it on the console, then take the time to make a BETTER game for the PC (although that's arguable, over which version someone prefers, but at least TECHNICALLY it's a lot better). Similarly to KotOR.
Ion Storm chose to go the easy way, and expected their 100.000+ fans that hold Deus Ex as the ultimate pinnacle in gaming to just accept this weak excuse for a PC game as the next evolution or something.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

And Thief is one of THE most respected franchises on the PC, even though Thief and Thief 2 unfortunately sold like crap. After Ex Deus : IW, people are understandably weary about what Ion Storm is going to fuck up next. And so far they haven't given us ANYTHING that makes anyone believe differently than that this will be a similar fiasco.

Oh well, if Thief 3 bunks, Ion will close their doors, guys will move, three new studios will pop up, 2 games will get made, both of which will stink, all three studios will close, 8 new studios will come up, one of which will actually deliver the next holy grail of gaming. At which point that studio decides to streamline the experience and we goto 10.

Creston

There are some EXCELLENT games on the XBox
No again.

Come on nin, KotOR is on the Xbox too, and it's almost as good as on the PC. We are the knights who say "KotOR", remember?

This comment was edited on Jan 23, 17:14.