I don't understand why the IW game art was so bad. Its like they didn't want to shell out the bucks to hire top notch artists. I guess that's what you get when Programmers want to play art director.

Sadly the game had a lot going for it and wouldnt have been half as bad as it was if it didn't run so assy. I can play every other current pc title with the settings cranked all the way up and they are smooth. But with IW I have to lower everthing to the lowest possible setting and still only get around 8 frames per second. +that's with the latest patches and the dxtool.
I've always been a great fan of the Thief series but I'm afraid without a major overhaul to that engine the game will hardly be playable.

Speaking of priorites I remember a thief 2 level where you had to borrow a mask from some rich guys museum, i have a strong memory of wandering miles off track and finding an unfinished corner I guess we all have to watch out for rose tinted glasses syndrome

...the engine just runs like fucking crap for what it actually delivers, because it doesn't look all THAT great.

This is so far my only worry about the next Thief. There was some great dynamic lighting, but the textures were bland and the polycounts hardly much of an improvement from DX1. Post-processing effects were nice, but there were many levels and situations which could have done better without it (The detailed mosaics in the Order Church come to mind.) As most reviews state, the AI hasn't improved much either. The new sound propagation and sound physics tech worked well if you actually used it, otherwise you settle with pathetic stereo sound with no acoustic reinforcement and weak sfx.

The game's presentation in general feels prioritized too much on the technology than on the artistry. Something unheard of in the much beloved Thief series.

So many sites simply REFUSE to give anything below 80% if it comes from a Big Name developer, or has paid for advertising, or for whatever other reason they might think of.

Or maybe they just don't hold unreasonable expectations. The reactions, particularly here, seem to usually have more to do with hype than quality.

How many reviews of Deus Ex were almost totally negative, and then they still give it 80%? It's a bigger difference between the two than the number would indicate.

Only negative review of DX1 I recall was Chick's, and he didnt give it an 80%. The critics loved the game, and it was the awards and the reviews that eventually brought a Quake Fed crowd around to it (in time for the Euro market - which, to your credit, we should probably owe that there is a DX2 -at all-). So maybe it insults some people's sensibilities that DX2 wasn't exactly like DX1 with better graphics, but maybe this is more of Ion Storm learning the market rather "copping out". Sometimes highly innovative, detailed and expensive games don't keep a studio alive. Don't believe me? Go ask Black Isle.

Yeah, it's called 8%. So it's a good game and not a great game. The way people talk about it, it's the worst thing since porn hit the Atari 2600.

There was porn for the 2600?? Dammit...

When you break it down into numbers, the 8% doesn't seem so bad, however, this is game reviews we're talking about. So many sites simply REFUSE to give anything below 80% if it comes from a Big Name developer, or has paid for advertising, or for whatever other reason they might think of. IGN, Gamespy come to mind, and there are quite a few others that RARELY go below 80%.

For them, when they don't absolutely love something, they give it in the low 80s and say "If this is your thing, you'll like it."

How many reviews of Deus Ex were almost totally negative, and then they still give it 80%? It's a bigger difference between the two than the number would indicate.

Now, I will admit that DX:IW isn't a BAD game, but it's just plain mediocre. And given the franchise that they were working in, it's just as bad a fuckup as Enter the Matrix was.

And yes, Deus Ex sold like crap, like so many other great games, I got it the second it came out though, and had to wait for five weeks before the European release finally came out. I even emailed Warren about it asking when it was finally coming.

I know that most of my negativity for the game comes from expecting SO MUCH MORE than what they delivered. However, I'm still in Cairo, and just have no interest whatsoever in even continuing. Smaller maps "filled" with more things to do? FFS, I just cleared out the Apostlecorp lab in Cairo, and there was ONE fucking bot in the entire level where you find that woman from Tarsus. ONE!

Bah, I've ranted about DX:IW enough. However, if you like the game, you still have to admit that the engine just runs like fucking crap for what it actually delivers, because it doesn't look all THAT great. This is what's going to power Thief 3 guys and gals, and you can look forward to more of those "streamlined" levels...

Creston

I too found DX2 more "deep" than the first in terms of it's accesibility to various playstyles. I noticed more routes to take within levels, more variety in the uses of the various tools available, and a greater sense of being able to define your purpose in the storyline. I did however miss many of the finer details found in DX1. The ammo, the level size, the lockpicks, blah, blah, blah, etc.

Basically while DX2 improves on the strategic aspects, it glosses over many of the more common tactical aspects of DX1 (And many other games for that matter) which most gamers have come to expect from the genre. Jesus-in-a-box would have had achieved excellence in both aspects, and attained the expectations of every gamer.

There is a difference between "positive reviews" that rank around 80% (source, gamerankings.com, pc version averages 82% ), and getting GREAT reviews that consistently clock in well over 90%. Let's not forget that the original received over FIFTY Game Of The Year awards.

Was going to try to remain quiet. Can't.

Yeah, it's called 8%. So it's a good game and not a great game. The way people talk about it, it's the worst thing since porn hit the Atari 2600.

Let's not forget another thing. Deus Ex sold like crap here in the states until enough reviewers told people to go try it. Most people all in up in arms probably got it out of a bargain bin. And it's certainly not alone in the, "oh, that was worth my money now that it's $10" crowd of excellent games. (another one, in case you were wondering, was the first Thief).

Abandoning the PC platform? Well, if only the top 15% of games are good enough for the PC gamer crowd, one can only wonder why. Simply expected more? Yeah, no kidding.

Yeah well thanks for your story, but if some peop;e ;ike shite, simplistic movies doesnt mean the movie is good, it just means the people are uhh "simple"

Thank you for a farted out response that did nothing to answer may question of why the game is perceived as bad and has only made me wonder why completely inarticulate people consider themselves too sophisticated for DXIW "simplistic" gameplay. Additionally, while you call the game simple you fail to provide an actual gameplay example of the game being simple. To my mind the element that made DX "deep" was that the game allowed you to complete objectives based upon your playstyle, not the designers. As far as I can tell that is still the case in DXIW.

I really hope they don't Mess this up (Trust me a different word came to mind) like they did deus ex II.

And that is all I am going to say at this moment.

Yeah well thanks for your story, but if some peop;e ;ike shite, simplistic movies doesnt mean the movie is good, it just means the people are uhh "simple"

Gameplay aside DX:IW ran like shit and looked like shit to, PC crowd with good toys doesnt want their games tu run like on a shitty 400 dollar box does nor look anything like that and most dont like the kiddy aspect of siplistic gameplay either, so there you have, it was shit and it was rated accordingly "by pc gamers"

End of story

. You liked IW, good for you. Compare it to the original, and it reeks of Hollywood Regurgitated Vomit Syndrome. (ie, the original was approximately 20 times better than the sequel)

We've had this debate before but I'm still of the opinion that DXIW did certain things better and certain things worse than the original. Determining which is better largely comes down to whether you want to focus on DXIW improvements or flaws. I can understand how people were disappointed with DXIW, we were after all just about promised Jesus in a box, and can thus create a compelling argument that the original was better. What I don't understand is why people say DXIW is a bad game. Flawed certainly but still one of the better games to come out this year.

For all the accusations of dumbing the game down from a RPG to a shooter I'm increasingly believing the opposite is true. I'm now on my fourth playthrough and am finding myself more easily immersed and slipping into the role of my character concept than I do in KotOR. Now granted DXIW doesn't have experience points or skills but personally I find actual roleplaying and immersion more important to an RPG than stats and EXP.

Again we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Yes, DXIW is more of a sideways step, as in a further exploration of the design that already existed, than a true step forward. Despite that I still think its a fun game and ultimately thats what I play games for: fun.

The engine is essentially the same as for DXIW, but they have more time to get it running well.

I also heard a rumour that DXIW draws obstructed objects all the time, so that when you turn on your "can see through walls" augmentation you don't get a drop in frame rate. Sounds like a really bad move to me, and the rumour could certainly be entirely false!, but if it's true then we can at least be thankful that Garrett can't see through walls, and they can rid the Thief version of the engine of this highly unnecessary extra work.

Either way, I think the engine should work better for Thief than it did for DXIW.

Additionally, Ion Storm are VERY aware of the massive outcry from PC gamers over the DXIW "dumbing down", and will have the opportunity to not make the same mistakes twice.

Finally, as already mentioned, the Thief development team is not the same as the DXIW team, and they have several members of the original Looking Glass Thief developers on board.

Like a previous poster, my main concern (going by DXIW comments) is level size, but why don't we all just quit making *assuptions* that the game will suck, and wait and see what *actually* eventuates?

I’m quite surprised at the response for this one. I think there are two matters which have been overlooked.

1. This game is being developed. When the Looking Glass broke, we were all sure that it meant the end of the Thief series. Regardless of the track record of ION, we’ve been given a new lease. I don’t even care if it is virtually an expansion pack.

2. The other important distinction to make is that every time a sequel to something great is made, the expectations are so high that no matter what is done the game, movie, story is doomed to be perceived as a trite copy. But had it come out with a new name, slightly different twist & new characters, people would herald it as the best game since or even better than the previous game.


I think the real problem is that people read too much about their entertainment so that when the media is released they have preconceived notions about how they should feel about it. So even if they would like to enjoy it, they can’t because they don’t know how to appreciate it.

With Ion Storm's dubious reputation the new thief game will probably be a horrible console port like Deus-Ex: Invisible War.

Long live Daikatana.

Enjoy getting KOTOR 6 months after I had it? ;-)

Since I got to play it at 1600x1200 with 6xFSAA and in Dolby 5.1, yeah, pretty much. Heart of the Guardian rules too, btw.
Oh, and how are the fixes to the bugs in the Xbox version coming along?

Ion Storm abandoning the PC? Probably so, many developers eventually ditch the one platform that got them to where they are now, so it wouldn't surprise me. Whether that is something Xbox fans should be HAPPY about is up to them. You liked IW, good for you. Compare it to the original, and it reeks of Hollywood Regurgitated Vomit Syndrome. (ie, the original was approximately 20 times better than the sequel)

As for Thief 3, we'll see. I would have gotten it the second it came out, but since they botched up DX:IW so badly, AND since Thief 3 will be running with the same limp, fucked up engine, I'm going to be a bit more conservative. It's bad enough that Deus Ex has now been tarnished forever, I don't really want to see Thief go the same way.

I will agree that PC developers now draw a lot of crap online, and that it seems that nothing but negativity is flung in their direction. However, if said PC developers would take the fucking time to make sure their product actually WORKS before releasing it, so that they wouldn't have to PATCH it within 0.04 seconds of release, maybe they might catch a little bit less flack?

I'm sure that all the Xbox owners for whom DX:IW crashes frequently are VERRRRRRRRRRRY happy with Ion Storm's wonderful Quality Assurance.

Creston

Edit : If the game is so bad, then why does it continue to garner plenty of positive reviews?

There is a difference between "positive reviews" that rank around 80% (source, gamerankings.com, pc version averages 82% ), and getting GREAT reviews that consistently clock in well over 90%. Let's not forget that the original received over FIFTY Game Of The Year awards. We simply expected more, and we certainly expected more than a gimped Xbox port. Small levels my ass.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 17:56.

I hope this does not mean that the game will have the same pretty shadow & lighting effects in DX:IW that are deadly to the frame rates.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 17:25.

Acualy I realy hope the game turns out to be good for the fact that the first 2 thife games were made by the best game company to date Look Glass Studios. To bad it was shut down. I would like to see a SS3 if thife 3 turns out good. other wise i hope Ion wont even touche the game.

That first coment is my opinion i am not trying to say its fact. but i am sure many would agree.

This comment was edited on Jan 14, 16:42.

not anymore... EB pulled the name and its Thief III again

_____________________________________________
Give me slack. Or kill me.

Alright name something about Thief that they can dumbdown. What do you expect that they remove interactivity with objects in the world? Thief is the perfect example of a game that is extremely simple yet very elegant and deep. Unless they decide to turn it in to an action game I fail to see where they could streamline into stupidity any part of the experience.

Oh I think you will be very surprised on what they can dumb down.

All console FPS games are different from the PC counterparts, you can be pretty sure they will fix that and it wont be the old thief anymore, oh and inclusion of xbox means no DX9 thingies, no real DX9 anyway, Halo doesnt count as DX9 game, it looks worse then most DX7 games.