Federal GTA Lawsuit

Suit seeks to ban sales of popular video game (thanks Mike Martinez): "A lawsuit by Haitian groups that asks for the top-selling video game 'Grand Theft Auto: Vice City' to be removed from store shelves will be decided in federal court. " Also, Give Back Take Two (thanks Hump and Steve Nutley) has complaints from The New York Post about GTA, apparently making the case for how depicting violence in a game is worse than molestation: "This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy."
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162 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 4.
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102.
 
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 3, 2004, 02:23
Re: Moog Operator Jan 3, 2004, 02:23
Jan 3, 2004, 02:23
 
"the ONLY technological advantage the Europeans had was gunpowder and, in most cases, metalsmithing."

And Asia was more advanced in both technologies! North Africans where performing eye surgery before any europeen even new the anatomy of the human body! Native amerians developed birth control before europeens even new the earth was round.

"Remember the winners of any conflict are always the ones who write the history."

That's why so many of you talk shit and don't even know or take the time to learn the few facts i just posted.

So sad to see so much ignorance in 2004, no wonder Redneck like Lou Dobbs are crying & bitching on CNN in shows like exporting America lol!

Ignorance is bliss and it will accelerate your own demise if not kept in check!
"Of course, in this case, the Indians didn't have written language..."
Wow now their is one major piece of non-sense, just because you and your history books say they did not have a written language you think that is the case! Next you'll say the Egyptians did not have written language lol!

Why do i waist time with this comment section i should just let you all self destruct (like Baby Bush is doing) and enjoy the show! Funny to see how an ignorant fool like Bush took a great country and turned it into the laughing stock of the planet and gave all the redneck the courage to post crap like this!

Avatar 19242
101.
 
Lather, rinse, repeat...
Jan 2, 2004, 19:08
Lather, rinse, repeat... Jan 2, 2004, 19:08
Jan 2, 2004, 19:08
 
Someon here has it in their .sig. They attribute the quote to Dick Cavett.

Hmm... nobody I know...

-------

You know, THIS is why I play less controversial games like Postal 2, Carmageddon, Panty Raider, BMX XXX, and well, most of the other games on this list:

http://www.pcgamer.com/eyewitness/eyewitness_2003-06-05.html

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play some D&D and listen to some Judas Priest records. Anyone know where I can find a virgin to sacrifice? Or can anyone sell me a cheap goat...?

---------------------------------------------
"There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?" -- Dick Cavett
mocking the TV-violence debate
--------
BOOBIES Filter Greasemonkey script:
http://camaro76.web.aplus.net/BOOBIES_filter.user.js
Punk Buster (Ignore Trolls) Greasemonkey script:
http://camaro76.web.aplus.net/punkbuster.user.js
100.
 
Song No. 35
Jan 2, 2004, 17:18
Song No. 35 Jan 2, 2004, 17:18
Jan 2, 2004, 17:18
 
Working class hero? No such thing
Put on your Martens. you still can't sing
No organised class, it's out of control
Your mates are so young, you feel so old

No new religion, follow yourself
Plastic fashions lined up on a shelf
The shop has closed down it's a supermarket pose
Wander back home and change all your clothes

No price tag on the cost of shit
Shit is free they got plenty of it
Conveyor belt message to the ignorant youth
THIS IS FREE SHIT ITS BETTER THAN TRUTH

Don't quote German freaks at me
It's all crap that's my philosophy
Shit class structure, fuck TV
Looks like I gotta die if I wanna be free

Pessimist! Nihilist! Optimist! You don't exist
It's all in your dreams
Can't you hear the screams?

http://www.underbeat.home.ro/subhum/


_____________________________________________
Give me slack. Or kill me.
______________________________________________
"When the bomb drops it'll be a bank holiday
Everybody happy in their tents and caravans
Everybody happy in their ignorance and apathy
No one realizes until the television breaks down..."

- SUBHUMANS
99.
 
Re: My 2c
Jan 2, 2004, 16:38
99.
Re: My 2c Jan 2, 2004, 16:38
Jan 2, 2004, 16:38
 
Great question.

Thanks, I come up with them every so often.

the question becomes what about porn makes it objectionable? Is it the visual evidence that someone engaged in illicit acts or the mental suggestion that such acts exist? Its a fine line perhaps.

Very good question. I think for myself, I'd uneasily agree that computer generated "kiddie porn" (for lack of a better term) shouldn't be banned, since the reasons we (or at least I) feel "real" kiddie porn is reprehensible is because there is a defenseless innocent victim involved (the child), which is not the case with CG porn. However, while I'm no psychologist, one would wonder if a person using CG kiddie porn on a regular basis may lead that person to seek out real world encounters. Like you said, a very fine line.

And thanks for the link to the article on ABCNews, it's an interesting read.

As it relates to games ... I have trouble identifing anything that could equate to kiddie porn.

Me too, although what if what the author of the Post article said about GTA:VC was true and not an extreme exaggeration? That you could pick up prostitutes, rape them (rendered in a way that left nothing to the imagination), and then bludgeon them to death in whatever brutal way you chose, all in absolutely realistic detail. I don't know about you, but I'd feel pretty damn uneasy with a game like that on the shelves of Wal-Mart.

PZ
---------------
Reading: Welsh, Dalheimer, and Kaufman's "Running Linux"
Listening To: Sam Roberts - "We Were Born In A Flame", Treble Charger - "Detox", and Sum 41 "Does this Look Infected"
This comment was edited on Jan 2, 16:39.
PZ
------------
98.
 
Re: Useless crud
Jan 2, 2004, 15:25
98.
Re: Useless crud Jan 2, 2004, 15:25
Jan 2, 2004, 15:25
 
Hasly:

Yes, of course, blame it on the liberals. Anything that doesn't suit the dictates of the right-regardless of it being right or wrong-is wrong because it must be part of some vast left-wing conspiracy.

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Pathetic.
So far I don't think I've laid any blame yet, but if that's what you want to read then that's your problem. But, the article in itself does. What people should be questioning is objectivity of the reporter and the story itself. Re read what I said. Apparently you missed it. As for hypocrisy, there are always a few in a PoV. None, some, and 'no bounds'.

An interesting question for you, do read all sources or only those you agree with? I'd like an honest answer, in turn I'll give you one. I read every source no matter if it's a liberal rag or the commie times.

I will say I have noticied one thing, most liberals-more over socialists are probably the most angry people I have ever met. More so at me since I've 'abandoned that camp', hmm I think that was put to me. More so I've been told, that I've 'dishonored and spit in their faces' by joining 'the ranks of the right', interesting way of putting it. Since I saw it as the left abandoning me. It's interesting, I know several ex-democrats in the US, who are now republicans who say the same thing.

hebrew_national:
Try to focus more on being a human being

Damnit, I revealed my hippy, leftist self!
I tried atleast in a political sense, there are various facets ofcourse, it was corrupted by those that wanted to control me. And it was corrupted by those who want to do nothing to better humanity in itself except protest and use the ends of what we have for naught or to elevate themselfs into a higher state, as well ensuring that we had nothing but a never ending cycle of class warfare. What does that get us in the end? Nothing. You are naught but under the thumb of government, or under the thumb of those who want to tell you a specific PoV. And what freedom do you have then? You are stuck in an never ending cycle of always paying for some type of class welfare project. Ask yourself, what governments and socities that operate like that are not operating in some type of trouble. In the end it wasn't me, it was the left as a whole that left. Noble goals in the begining perhaps, but I'll not go any further then that. Regardless...

Oh I'm more then willing to get into a long drawn out political debate with anyone who really wants it, I won't say I do this for personal enjoyment--tho I do enjoy it, but I will say that I have ties to political groups both on the left and the right in Canada atleast...I am from this frozen wasteland. More people should really look back and see what groups have really accomplished what they have set out to do, and what groups will have the most positive and greatest positive affect in the world. And that, is another discussion for another day. Since it's a long, boring subject on the political differences and what the existence of the government should really be.

Quite sorry about this Blue, my appologies for turning this into a political debate.
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
97.
 
Re: My 2c
Jan 2, 2004, 14:23
97.
Re: My 2c Jan 2, 2004, 14:23
Jan 2, 2004, 14:23
 
Here is a link to an article on the Supreme Courts overturning of, at least some parts, the child pornography act congress tried to pass in 2002. Not sure if congress was successful after rewording the law, but it is interesting that the highest court in the land views restricting computer generated images that suggest the subject is a child (whereas the subject may really be of legal age but gives the "impression" of being a child) violates free thought and therefore free speach.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/scotus_porn020415.html

If anyone has any updates on this please post them.
ZigZang
96.
 
My 2c 2
Jan 2, 2004, 14:01
96.
My 2c 2 Jan 2, 2004, 14:01
Jan 2, 2004, 14:01
 
I didn't want to post, being that everyone here seems to have a valid point, and it's well discussed, and for the most part, reading all of this has shown what a group of folks can do when they come together in agreement (and even disagreement), it would almost appear the forum alone could battle this in court in a group effort, and smash that journalist to pieces. But one thing that immediately stuck out to me on the topic, that no one else brought up is...

"This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy."

This is like broadband sorta. cable, 100 times faster than an analog modem. Really? 100? not 101? not 99?, how about false advertising.
In another view, who, on this planet, is capable of giving that # out? 10000? holy shite! Not 100? basically....trolling was used previously, and that's what it is, because the statement alone, which has flamed everything "game", is intirely an opinion in the first place. At this time, I believe the journalist is THE ONLY one who thinks this. Obviously, no one in this forum agrees, well accept for one person, but that's not 10000 times.
Anyway, let this ride, it'll be a end of 2004 things to be remembered thing for the year or something.

95.
 
Re: My 2c
Jan 2, 2004, 13:56
95.
Re: My 2c Jan 2, 2004, 13:56
Jan 2, 2004, 13:56
 
This moral gray area certainly must encompass the infamous hentai "rape simulator" RPGs peddled in Japanese markets. (As reviewed semi-regularly by SomethingAwful.com.)

Rockstar's Manhunt does seem to push the limits of acceptibility...but perhaps that was the point.

Avatar 13818
94.
 
Re: My 2c
Jan 2, 2004, 13:02
94.
Re: My 2c Jan 2, 2004, 13:02
Jan 2, 2004, 13:02
 
What is the gaming equivalent to kiddie porn? Any comments?

Great question.

I'm not sure I have an answer, but I do remember reading some time ago that US courts have stated that ultra-realistic renditions of sex acts (entirely CG) are NOT considered pornography (or, at least, are not to be treated the same as traditional porn which required actual human [or bovine] subjects to engage in acts and be photographed). Given the growing sophistication of digital imagery (and its logical connection to interactive entertainment) the question becomes what about porn makes it objectionable? Is it the visual evidence that someone engaged in illicit acts or the mental suggestion that such acts exist? Its a fine line perhaps.

As it relates to games, NONE of it is real or ever was real during its creation. For this reason I have trouble identifing anything that could equate to kiddie porn.
ZigZang
93.
 
My 2c
Jan 2, 2004, 12:44
93.
My 2c Jan 2, 2004, 12:44
Jan 2, 2004, 12:44
 
Hmm, well time to jump back into the Bluesnews forums after returning from xmas holidays, and this one I just couldn't pass up.

I'm with Hump, this article is blatantly inflamatory, and I don't see any real point in sending mail to the author. The author of the article is basically trolling, so why respond?

I'm curious though, all of the messages on here seem to be of the "but GTA:VC isn't that bad" variety. If GTA:VC isn't this bad (and admittedly I'm not in a position to say, as I haven't played any of the GTA games since the original back in the DOS days), what would constitute a game that needs to be banned?

For an analogous example of what I'm getting at, I think we'd all (or I'd hope we'd all) agree that pornography is constitutionally protected under freedom of expression laws, but the exception should be (and is) child pornography. What is the gaming equivalent to kiddie porn? Any comments?


PZ
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Reading: Welsh, Dalheimer, & Kaufman's "Running Linux"
Listening To: Sam Roberts - "We Were Born In A Flame", Treble Charger - "Detox", and Sum 41 "Does this Look Infected?"
edit - sig fix
This comment was edited on Jan 2, 12:47.
PZ
------------
92.
 
Art meets commerce once again...
Jan 2, 2004, 11:58
92.
Art meets commerce once again... Jan 2, 2004, 11:58
Jan 2, 2004, 11:58
 
Grow up already
The problem here is that people still think computer games are for kids....BUT THEY'RE NOT PEOPLE!!! This is the fundamental problem right now with the political and social soapboxers. They don't put interactive entertainment (notice I didn't use the G word) in the same category as movies, theater, literature and other forms of artistic expression. If they did, they would have to give it the same latitude they give artists in other popular media. These are the growing pains of an industry caught in the middle between art and commerce. They criticized Easy Rider, but now its considered a classic...

Speaking of double standards...

If GTA was placed on a video screen in a Soho art gallery somewhere, people would stand around sipping their Cabernet applauding, remarking how it "makes a powerful statement about our violent, greedy, power-obsessed and self-gratifying culture" and "how its interactivity allows you to become part of, participate in, and shape the artists vision". But, slap a price tag of $50 on it, put it on the shelves at Wal-Mart and suddenly it becomes an uncontrollable force of evil designed to rapidly decay the moral fiber of our society, desensitize and pollute the minds of young children, and exploit our societies penchant for voyeurism.

Freedom for sale
So, at the end of the day, who's responsibility is it to determine the VALUE of a game like Vice City? Its not people like Christopher Byron. Remember, its his job to sell newspapers just like its Take Two's job to sell video games. No, it seems fairly obvious to me that it's US -- we the consumers, parents and registered voters. WE elect representatives of our goverment that are supposed to reflect our values. WE elect to buy, or not to buy products based on whether they provide us VALUE. WE are responsible for not only making our own personal judgements on what's valuable, important and relevant to us, but also influencing and guiding our children through the complex minefield of today's biased, profit-driven and cannibalistic media.

Yea, its a lot of responsibility. But thats the cost of living in this information-age free society. Unfortunately its a cost many people have apathetically stopped assuming. At the end of the day, nothing is more powerful, more influential, more important to the growth, and longevity of a society than freedom of expression. USE IT.

Slingblade

91.
 
A day late, several million $$$...
Jan 2, 2004, 11:46
91.
A day late, several million $$$... Jan 2, 2004, 11:46
Jan 2, 2004, 11:46
 
That quote from the Post is one of the most insensitive, inappropriate and classless things I've ever read in a newspaper. It's extremism of the McCarthy-kind, and in itself, is just as guilty of the kind of exploitation for the sake of making money (to sell papers) as the game it criticizes. To compare the sexual molestation of a child with cancer, to an M-rated video game that has been on the market for years is a deliberate and greedy attempt to sensationalize an issue for the financial gain of the paper.

This is an old man, out of the loop, who just got wind of this "vidya game." He'll find another (not new) bandwagon to jump on soon enough so I doubt we'll hear much more about this from him. Don't you just love the fact that the censor-happy pundits and politicians talk about the violence in every game on the market, except for America's Army, the U.S. Army's multi-million dollar recruitment project that prides itself on realism (with a real-world levelling-up reward system for killing and completing obj).

And yeah, the Haitians have a chance in hell against Western Capitolism. Not saying racial insensitivity isn't everywhere in the game, but come on. After it's release on Xbox, the game's already reached every gamer that it's going to.
Don't even get me started about "Government as Parent" though. Parents who care and actually "parent" won't let their young child play a game like GTA3, and parents who aren't involved, or who don't care, have children that will find trouble and have trouble even if they never play a single video game growing up. damn that pissed me off =P

90.
 
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 2, 2004, 10:47
90.
Re: Moog Operator Jan 2, 2004, 10:47
Jan 2, 2004, 10:47
 
.... Take an anthropology class and stop being so ignorant about non-European cultures. The ONLY technological advantage the Europeans had was gunpowder and, in most cases, metalsmithing.
As an anthropologist, I can tell you that the Native Americans were more primative than anyone would LIKE to admit. I personally find them to be one of the most boring cultures on earth. The written history has little to do with what we know of the native americans (studying ancient written history is something done more by Classical Archaeologists, who do not study Native Americans).
The technological advantages of the europeans came in the form of warfare and survival (yes, there are in fact parts of Europe that get COLD in winter, just like America), not to mention medicine. Even the Native Americans had guns, which were stolen off enemies or traded to them.
Look at history. It takes more than the posession of gunpowder to successfully commit genocide.
Xombie x0mbie x0mb|e Xombie
89.
 
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 2, 2004, 10:13
89.
Re: Moog Operator Jan 2, 2004, 10:13
Jan 2, 2004, 10:13
 
.... Take an anthropology class and stop being so ignorant about non-European cultures. The ONLY technological advantage the Europeans had was gunpowder and, in most cases, metalsmithing. Remember the winners of any conflict are always the ones who write the history.

Of course, in this case, the Indians didn't have written language...

88.
 
Re: bs
Jan 2, 2004, 09:55
88.
Re: bs Jan 2, 2004, 09:55
Jan 2, 2004, 09:55
 
"This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy."

Why don't they get the people from Philip Morris or other tobacco conglomerates to do a study on this?

[simulated Philip Morris quote q[Testing of Michael Jackson molesting a little boy vs. Violence in video games did not show a definitive, conclusive "10,000 times worse" than average ratio of worseness. Data is inconclusive at this time and more studies are needed.]

87.
 
My Letter
Jan 2, 2004, 09:53
87.
My Letter Jan 2, 2004, 09:53
Jan 2, 2004, 09:53
 
I originally saw this on Slashdot and immediately wrote a letter. Here's what I sent to this jerk as well as letters@nypost.com:

Mr. Byron,

I just read your article on Take Two and want to point out a few things:

- Your comments that video games are linked to real-world violence aren't any more true than similar links to "Helter Skelter" or "Catcher in the Rye". Just the fact that video game sales are at their highest point ever and juvenile crime is at a 10-year low and violent crime in general is decreasing completely deflates your argument. Many people do insane things for insane reasons and then blame everything and everyone but themselves. Despite that fact, you'll be pleased to know that more people have been killed in the name of the Bible and Koran than over any video game.

- The current median age of video gamers is 32. Assuming that all video games are made for children is just ignorant. Every game manufacturer voluntarily submits their games for rating which is then plainly marked on the package. Grand Theft Auto III and Grand Theft Auto: Vice City are both rated "M" for Mature meaning they are not intended for those under 18. Are parents who choose to buy "M" rated games for their kids any less liable than those that give their kids a bottle Jack Daniels and a pack of smokes? I think not. Some things are not meant for kids - these are two of those things. (Many large store chains to not carry M-rated games and many others require ID to purchase them just for this reason.)

- You also questioned the content itself, but the New York Post is not beyond pushing sex and violence to make money. Ironically, when I visited your article there were two Victoria's Secret banner ads running on the page featuring an extremely scantily clad woman. Your site is also hosting a "Year End Survey" that includes graphic pictures of bloody victims from a bombing in Turkey and the "Portrait of War" which shows violent street battles, bloody soldiers being carried off on stretchers, and a series of pictures showing the war wounds of children. Unlike the video games in question, your web site has *no* rating whatsoever and kids could have easily stumbled across any of this publicly-available content.

- Finally, you make a point that these games let you do "whatever you want". The fact that you chose to kill police and murder prostitutes was totally a choice of your making. Which is worse - for the game to offer the choice or for you to take it? In case you didn't know, the game also lets you spend time working as a cab driver, rescuing people in an ambulance and fire truck, and delivering pizzas. Of course, I know that kind of subject matter just isn't going to sell papers.

Sincerely,
{me}


86.
 
Re: bs
Jan 2, 2004, 09:12
86.
Re: bs Jan 2, 2004, 09:12
Jan 2, 2004, 09:12
 
excellent suggestion. did send spam to mr. cbyron@nypost.com

85.
 
Re: No subject
Jan 2, 2004, 07:02
85.
Re: No subject Jan 2, 2004, 07:02
Jan 2, 2004, 07:02
 
Here's the letter I just sent to Christopher Byron and the editors of the New York Post:

Theres a lot of this going on but IMO its a waste of time and energy. The article is blatantly meant to inflame people to the point of outrage, thereby selling more copy for The Post. If the article had been a bit more rational and was in the OP/Ed section I'd have no problem beleiving it was legit but seeing its in the Business section and its written in such an hysterical and ameteurish style that it can't be anything else than a planted story. Its a sort trademark of these Hearst-style publications that thrive on the lurid, scandalous etc. Every major American city has one.

I wouldnt give these morons the satisfaction of knowing I even read it.

-Hump
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Perhaps the answer to the perennial problem of delinquent teenagers dropping bricks from motorway and railway bridges is to sue the creators of Tetris."- unknown author
This comment was edited on Jan 2, 07:03.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Both the “left” and the “right” pretend they have the answer, but they are mere flippers on the same thalidomide baby, and the truth is that neither side has a clue."

- Jim Goad
Avatar 10137
84.
 
Re: No subject
Jan 2, 2004, 06:44
84.
Re: No subject Jan 2, 2004, 06:44
Jan 2, 2004, 06:44
 
who was the person that said this, cant remember it all...

theres comedy on tv, does that mean that commedy is being copied/mimiced on the streets too?

Someon here has it in their .sig. They attribute the quote to Dick Cavett.

-TPFKAS2S
http://www.braglio.org

-TPFKAS2S
Avatar 10139
83.
 
QQ
Jan 2, 2004, 05:17
RaZ0r!
 
83.
QQ Jan 2, 2004, 05:17
Jan 2, 2004, 05:17
 RaZ0r!
 
QQ

RaZ0r!
Tweak Monkey and Gaming Extraordinaire =)
http://users.ign.com/about/Cutts
I pwnz j00!
Avatar 8127
162 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 4.
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