Federal GTA Lawsuit

Suit seeks to ban sales of popular video game (thanks Mike Martinez): "A lawsuit by Haitian groups that asks for the top-selling video game 'Grand Theft Auto: Vice City' to be removed from store shelves will be decided in federal court. " Also, Give Back Take Two (thanks Hump and Steve Nutley) has complaints from The New York Post about GTA, apparently making the case for how depicting violence in a game is worse than molestation: "This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy."
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Re: Nukes
Jan 8, 2004, 10:04
Re: Nukes Jan 8, 2004, 10:04
Jan 8, 2004, 10:04
And, Sep 11th should be all the explanation you need concerning our military budget.
Pre Sep 11 the budget was 294 bn. So yes there has been a significant increase in spending, but then wars cost. However whether that extra spending has made America safer when the 300bn spent previously per annum didn't is I'd suggest highly dubious.

If America is the hope for freedom for humanity where is the commitment to remove oppressive regimes in parts of the world where America (and its leaders personally) don't have significant financial interests.
Anvil - from the land of warm beer and mad cattle.
Re: Nukes
Jan 8, 2004, 09:57
Re: Nukes Jan 8, 2004, 09:57
Jan 8, 2004, 09:57
It is not conspiracy if it is true, and the evil of America's foreign influence is well documented truth. In not one case of American Military or CIA political interference since world war 2, have the people of the affected country gained freedom (which you seem to think America is dealin gout), better living conditions, better economic conditions, or anything - except the ruling elite in those countries. More often than not, their little excursions have caused political instability, civil war, countless deaths, mass torture and rape. The mass torture and rape is usually carried out by the government. Look up the School of the Americas on google, and read up on how thousands of foreigners, even the evil, hated Islamists, have been trained in the finer points of torture by Americans, in America.
Further to that, the economy in the States right now affords those with capital to make lots of money, there is no denying it. However, that is a tiny percentage of the total population - the people in lower classes struggle to survive, while the middle class shrinks, not due to the middle class striking it rich, but because their personal debt has forced them into the lower class.
Quick True Story as to Why September 11 Occured:
Before the Russian Afghan war, which would eventually bleed the Russians into collapse, the USA began shipping arms, and money to the mujahadeen. Russias response to the hightened power, and moreover the armament of the mujahadeen, was to attack Afghanistan. About ten years, a few hundred thousand Afghans, and hundreds of thousands of russians later, Russia collapsed, affording victory to the Afghans. However, the war decimated the once modern Afghanistan, destroying infrastructure vital to the Afghan people. They (mujahadeen) fought a war for the US, and when the US cut funding to Afghnistan. Two major things happened when this did: First, the mujahadeen became the Taliban - you know who they are; second, the USA rammed a sandpaper covered middle finger up the asses of all Afghans - one of the Afghan fighters in the war (whom the CIA personally trained along with many of his countrymen) was one Osama Bin Laden. His Jihad against America was declared shortly after the war, with a continuing body count of over 4000 Americans.
Military budget justified by Sept 11... right. The hijacked planes which crashed into New York flew over at least 6 air force bases, all of which were capable of scrambling fighters into the sky in less than a minute. When they flew over those bases, they were known to be hijacked. US policy on hijacked planes, is to get fighters into the sky, to intercept if necessary. Even with the ridiculous military budget of the day, these planes were not stopped. There is no relation to higher defence budget numbers, and higher safety. If anything, it is the opposite. I mean, look at Canada - Our defence budget got a huge raise last year - OF 700 MILLION DOLLARS!!!!!! OMFG!!! OUR ARMY IS HUGE!!!
Total Number of Canadians killed in Canada due to Terrorism in the last 20 years: 0
Average chance of getting slaughtered by terrorits in Canada in 1980:0%
... I think you get the picture.

I dont know which conspiracies you were referring to... but heres some WMDs in texas!

This comment was edited on Jan 8, 10:08.
Re: Nukes
Jan 8, 2004, 07:21
Re: Nukes Jan 8, 2004, 07:21
Jan 8, 2004, 07:21

I am not even gonna bother with your conspiracy theories anymore. You are obviously pretty wacky. I'm sorry you think the US is the great evil in the world. Truly. Too bad you can't see that we are the hope for freedom for humanity.


I disagree once again. I think it is entirely evident that freeing up money for investors stimulates the economy. Give $1000 to a bum and he will drink it. Give $1000 to an investor and he will invest it. When cash is infused into the system, it sprouts. Always with the same results. As I said, you can directly see the results. Each time the taxes are cut, the ecomnomic impact actaully IMPROVES taxation for the government. More business transactions and more personal wealth to tax.

The budget.

These stats are from the United States Budget.

2003 stats in billions.

Discretionary programs:

Defense: 368
Non-defense 405 (Education, grants, roads, etc...)

Mandatory Programs:

Social Security 472
Medicare 231
Medicaid 159
Other mandatory 297
Interest 191

As you can see, social programs are eating up the vast majority of taxes. And, these are mandatory programs. They will never be cut and only grow. THIS is the problem in the US. It's funny how the independant American spirit seems to have vanished. I remember my Grandfather telling me that when he grew up, nobody would ever take a handout if they could help it from fear of embarrasment. Now, we have a growing percentage of people in the US that don't pay taxes and live on the dole. Welfare and Medicare/Medicaid are socialist programs doomed for failure.

http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2003/maindown.html If you wanna check it out.

And, Sep 11th should be all the explanation you need concerning our military budget.
This comment was edited on Jan 8, 08:15.
Re: Nukes
Jan 7, 2004, 18:36
Re: Nukes Jan 7, 2004, 18:36
Jan 7, 2004, 18:36
I'm not arguing with the fact that US income taxes are progressive - that's the economic term for "the richer you get, the more you pay, not only in dollars, but as a percentage of your income". I think your estimate of the top 10% paying 87% is a little high, but the figures I have show it's certainly between 60-70%.
Anyway, the point is that the economy cycles every 8-to-10 (or so) years. It's at a high point in the late 70s, the late 80's, the late 90's and, everything remaining on track, will be again around 2006-09. It crashed in the early 80's, the early 90's, and - guess what - in 2001. This occurs for reasons far more subtle and important than taxation, and is entirely independent of which administration is in the White House.
And no, it is not a demontratable fact that giving money to the rich is more beneficial than to the poor. Give $100 to a tramp, and $100 to Bill Gates and see who spends it first. It's called the marginal propensity to consume, and it diminishes as you get richer. That is a simple page-one economic fact, look it up.
Now, politicians cut taxes for a number of reasons, but these are mainly "cosmetic" - aimed at improving confidence and showing that the government care, and deflecting criticism of sitting doing nothing. It is a sad fact of politics that left, right or center, it is remarkably hard to do nothing, even when that's the best thing to do.
Also, in booming times, when tax receipts are up and our taxes paid outweigh our spending on welfare, that surplus money is saved for the inevitable "rainy day" when those unlucky ones that lose their jobs in the bust time call on the welfare state to see them not starve. So it's quite simple: end of the decade, everyone employed, loads of tax money, not many benefits claimed. Bust. Higher unemployment, fewer tax receipts (no, not because of lower taxes, because of lower and fewer incomes) and more people claiming. It's deficit time.
You want me to find you a tax cut that harmed the US? When you're entering a period of prosperity (as we should be by 2005) and you're staring at the largest post-war deficit in history. I'm not predicting doom and gloom or anything, I'm just saying that the ridiculous military spending is where the money is going and will have to be calmed down. Quite why you need a defence budget that is greater than the next 30 largest countries combined is beyond me.

Avatar 18712
Re: Nukes
Jan 7, 2004, 18:24
Re: Nukes Jan 7, 2004, 18:24
Jan 7, 2004, 18:24
Inkswitch, one more thing: Countering my arguments with intellect such as:
"Starving children? You dumbass. There are no starving children in the USA"
"George Bush didn't approve the gassing of the Kurds. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life"
"Their (he meant "there") is absolutely zero proof that homosexuality is a condition you are born with"
Try backing up YOUR claims with some facts. Calling me stupid, and leaving it at that does not make you seem too smart.

Re: Nukes
Jan 7, 2004, 18:13
Re: Nukes Jan 7, 2004, 18:13
Jan 7, 2004, 18:13
"Killing Hope: A History of US Foreign Military and CIA interventions since WW2" by William Blum.
Start there, and see how "communist" the previous government was. And, since you seem like a real smrt guy, explain the problem of a communist government in Iraq to me please. Communism, since it's inception has been attacked, and attacked wholeheartedly by Capitalism - the point being, we don't know how communism would fail, we just know that capitalist tinkering in any newly formed government will fuck it over badly. Sure, there was no world war, but in the act of cleaning up "communism" world wide, USA has created poverty for BILLIONS OF PEOPLE and they caused the deaths of MILLIONS of people... including around 3000 american civilians on September 11, 2001.
- this is an article on the possible biologic origins of homosexuality. Much more evidence points to biological factors, than psychological... On the topic, ever heard of a recessive gene? Bred out of existence my ass... just like you'd assume Cancer, CF, MS etc would have died by now... or fatal allergies....

Now, shut your ignorant mouth. You live in a bubble, well insulated from reality. Go to Flint Michigan, and tell me there is no child hunger there. Go to inner city L.A., N.Y., or any large urban city in America, and along with hunger, you will find TB, and Cholera making a comeback.
As for social programs failing, here is a fact: When you cut almost all funding to any program, social or not, it fails.
War on Drugs - Don't have to say anymore
War on Terror - Terror still exists, in fact, according to every analyst other than american Conservatives, and a few british ones the American war on Terror has had one effect - MORE TERRORISTS!
Department of Homeland Security - In October, over 140 people were arrested in connection with WHITE SUPREMECIST CHRISTIANS operating in Texas. They had enough Cyanide to kill over 12 million Americans. I can cross into the US at any one of the 12 unpatrolled border crossings into the US - in Alberta alone. With bombs. With guns, with poisin if I wanted too.
And just so you know, when Saddam came into power (the second time) he was not some shining Capitalist uber-leader, helping his people into the future... one of his first acts as Dictator was to kill all of his political opponenets - he went downhill from there.
I will point out one tax cut that did not help your economy: Reaganomics. The recession of the 80s was a direct result of reagonomics... what are you, 3?

One more thing: Islamic religion does not require oppression of women, but just as Christianity teaches peace, and just as you fundamentalist Christian president has killed ~50,000 people in under 4 years while trumping jesus, it is a religion being used for evil.

This comment was edited on Jan 7, 18:15.
Re: Nukes
Jan 7, 2004, 17:27
Re: Nukes Jan 7, 2004, 17:27
Jan 7, 2004, 17:27
Still gotta disagree, Tango.

Significant tax cuts indeed spur the economy on. Check out the info of our GNP following the Kennedy, Reagan, and Bush cuts and you can see the facts clearly. I hardly think that all three are coincidences. Freeing up money to the investors (the rich for you Libs) means they have more money to invest. They don't hoard the money. They spend it to make more. When they spend that money, people like me and you benefit with manufacturing orders and more service industry jobs. This is not a theory. This is a demonstrable fact of our economy. It works every time. Point out one significant tax cut that didn't stimulate the economy (US).

Oh, I was wrong. The top 1% of earners in this country pay apprx 87% of all income taxes. I was about 10%off. Still discrimination against the rich in my eyes. Stealing their money and giving it to other people kinda seems like communism, eh?


While I agree that military spending plays a part in our deficit/debt, you can't underestimate the cost of the socialist programs we employ. Every one of them has failed
to live up to the estimates given on inception. Every one of them has had billions in overuns.

Your point about the US making billions of people live in poor conditions is just plain stupid. Would you mind explaining exactly HOW the US did that?

I know you don't understand this, but our whole way of life threatens the hard-liners of the midle east. Freedom is contrary to their religion. Ask their women.

George Bush didn't approve the gassing of the Kurds. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life. Link me these books you are reading and I will check them out.

Gays. I disagree with you. Their is absolutely zero proof that homosexuality is a condition you are born with. That is a convenient excuse (not proven scientifically) to demand acceptance. Homosexuality is a fetish like any other. Some guys like fat chicks. Some guys like skinny chicks. Some guys like guys. That's just how it is. Common sense will tell you that if homosexuality was an hereditary condition, they would have bred (not bred) themselves out of existance.

You have no problem between two adults getting married? Really? How about a Father and Daughter(adults) marrying. Brother and Sister? Is it discrimination to disallow their marriage?

Like I said... I have no problem with adults doing whatever they want to with another adult. I just don't think they should be afforded legal status and the rights and priviledges that go along with marriage.

Starving children? You dumbass. There are no starving children in the USA. Show me ONE child with a distended belly. Just ONE. The fact is that there are horrible parents who don't provide for their children adequately. None of them starve. We don't permit kids to starve in America. If a child is hungry that is because his/her parents are negligent in their parental responsibilities. We provide free food for those who need it. In fact, we provide free housing, medical, and a host of other programs for these people to take advantage of. The poor are the poor. You will always have poor people unless you want to be a communist. We can see how well that form of government fared.

Oh, Iraq. Yup. We helped Saddam to power. We helped him overthrow a communist government. At the time, that was much more important than worrying about what he would be like in the future. Now, we are cleaning up that mess. BTW, we defeated communist Russia without a world war in the process. A worthwhile endeavor. And, Iraq isn't the only country we tinkered with to help defeat communism.

I kinda feel sorry for you, Moog. While you are all doom and gloom, the rest of us are living the American Dream. All it takes is a little hard work.

This comment was edited on Jan 7, 17:37.
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 7, 2004, 17:27
Re: Moog Operator Jan 7, 2004, 17:27
Jan 7, 2004, 17:27
Mike420, if you want a book that will piss you off/open your eyes a bit, get "Killing Hope: A History of US Foreign Military and CIA interventions since WW2" by William Blum.
It details around 6 million or so deaths caused directly by US interference in politics worldwide. The hatred other countries have for the USA becomes pretty self explanatory... Blum is an ex-CIA operative, and gets his info from declassified documents from the CIA. As for Chomsky, just look him up in the politics section of any bookstore, and buy all of his books. He has one of the most level-headed interpretations of world events available.
Check out that flash presentation for details on Kennedy's, Reagan's and Bush 1s involvement in the Ba'ath party, and Saddam's rise to power and subsequent arming.
And, /mike420, rest assured, the amount of US military spending just in IRAQ this time could solve domestic poverty problems for years to come.
Hey, AG - The other thing that is misleading about the "failure" of the UN, is when the worst of the genocides/mass rapings etc. were all taking place (indonesia, nicaragua, etc), the UNs members were all client states of the US - meaning that the US could bully them (usually arms trade related) into getting inline with American policy/interest. The UN, after it's inception, quickly became a tool for the US to legitamize horrible, horrible acts against humanity.

This comment was edited on Jan 7, 17:34.
Re: Nukes
Jan 7, 2004, 12:46
Re: Nukes Jan 7, 2004, 12:46
Jan 7, 2004, 12:46
AG, just to clarify, my point was that tax cuts have no long term effects on the economy. I agree with you as far as they speed up recovery, and sure they hurt growth if they're too high, but to say George Bush's fiscal policies are "the reason behind the economic recovery" (as inkswitch was implying) is just rubbish.

Avatar 18712
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 7, 2004, 12:32
Re: Moog Operator Jan 7, 2004, 12:32
Jan 7, 2004, 12:32
I would like to know what are the name of the book you're talking about. Its nice to see someone that defend the poor ppl,the real victims of this U$A sh_t. Bush and sadamn are like 'bro to me, they love the money and will do anything for it, capitalist bastard.... of course im not better then anyone cause i work 40h/week with a low income but you know that's life( working ur ass off till u blow off cause u worked too much)

All the money the USA spend on the military could help a little to make those poor kids a little bit less hungry, could give a roff to the homeless,could do something better then bomb a country with poor ppl in it. All of u that voted for Bush shoud be ashamed of themself...

Think about all those kids al those families that lives everyday in the misery( that wont change even in 20 years) they cannot afford a gun to protect themself,they cannot afford book for their kids so they could maybe go at the university and on & on & on..... i know christmas is over but ppl are still starving everywhere and even in this big country called the ''Land of a free''

'' you have the right to remain silent or anything that you would say would/could be use againts you '' think about it before u talk :p

Who ever told you life was fair ?

Life is a gamble play it hard :p
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 7, 2004, 10:54
Re: Moog Operator Jan 7, 2004, 10:54
Jan 7, 2004, 10:54
OK. First, America's foreign debt, and current deficit are entirely the fault of astronomical military spending. Which program should you cut first? The military, idiot. First, social sec, medicare, and all those other "debt causing" programs do not cost a twentieth of the military, most of which in unnecessary. Second, if the US military and CIA hadn't paraded around the third world for the last 55 years making the world safe for US big business, and causing unimaginable living conditions for over 3 billion people, which still continue today, THERE WOULD BE NO TERROR TO FIGHT.
George #1 not only approved of the use of gas on the Kurds, but George Bush the First also continued supplying the crooked and devious Saddam military equipment, and chemical weapons AFTER THE ULTIMATE ATROCITY. This is fact, Noam Chomsky, William Blum, and a host of other AMERICAN authors have documented it in books. In America, especially G.Bs America, if those books contained a single false statement, they would be pulled from the market, and the authors charged, fined, and jailed. This hasn't, and will not happen, because the information is true.
You did not, unless you are gay, or a closet case (also gay), choose the opposite sex as the target of your affections. It just happened. Just like gay people - they do not choose, it is natural for them. So, just as a human with brown skin did not choose it, and just as we cannot discriminate against him for that which was out of his hands, we cannot discriminate against gay people for that which they did not choose. If they are not allowed to marry because of a natural attraction to the same sex, it is discrimination, and it is shameful.
While you may see $300000 houses as you look out on the suburb you live in, the reality for most Americans lies somewhere in the: America is #1 for child poverty in the 1st world (but the country is sooo RICH!), America is #1 for gun violence, 10 MILLION people unemployed, America. The America where your president sends your kids to die for their country - then cuts money from veteran's programs. The America where no rich kid is left behind. The America where 30% of children go to school hungry, and remain so throughout the day. Your bubble image of America might be pleasant, but it is not representative of your whole country dude, and you are the idiot for believing it is.

Jan 7, 2004, 09:50
Nukes Jan 7, 2004, 09:50
Jan 7, 2004, 09:50
I'm not from US but know something about politics and more about economics and i must agree with the UK economist with his assesment that US tax cuts have little effect on the possible economic upturn in US.

I do disagree on the point that governaments cant affect economy thought: they can actually HURT it with tax hikes or other policies. This same effect rarely works the other way around because then they would be just undoing their own previous economy hurting measures. So they are only fixing what they broke themselves. Taxation can accomplish positive effects too but in most OECD countries we are well past that taxation-%.

2nd point: The nukes. Todays climate seems to be that nobody but ofcourse The US and appropriate allies can have them and there is nothing wrong with it. On the other hand anybody else has or tries to get them its evil and wrong in a genocide evil class and must be prevented with war if nothing else helps. This position seems hard to justify to me.

3rd UN and genocides around the world. Many in US again claim that UN has failed the countries where they happen but UN is just a collection of countries and not any separate organization with its own decisionmaking capability. Now i'm not aware how US has voted on any of these genocide issues but clearly US and its allies can easily block any vote if not in any other ways then using the veto. So the question is who voted against interventions in these cases.

After the failure in Somalia i wouldnt be surprised if US voted against other interventions or in some less obvious manner made sure that the votes failed or refused to allow US troops to be used.

US has taken the world police role but only when it seems to suit US interest which is rather sad position for the rest of the world.

Now interesting food for thought: How many military bases US has around the world on NON-US territory. How many Nato or any other countries have military bases on US soil? Why does US need this massive military presense everywhere but nobody else needs it? What would happen if Germany said they want to rent a military base 100 miles from Washington and put 20000 troops there?

This comment was edited on Jan 7, 09:54.
Re: No subject
Jan 7, 2004, 08:50
Re: No subject Jan 7, 2004, 08:50
Jan 7, 2004, 08:50
Again, won't argue the politics, but the idea that 1% of the population pay 95% of the tax is just nonsense. Yes, the rich pay the most (obviously) but the top 10% income bracket receives about 60% of the benefits of this tax cut, and the bottom 60% of earners account for just 8%. This is not an efficient way of cutting taxes, as common sense (as well as simple economics) says that if you hand back $1m to a bunch of millionaires, they won't spend as much (or as beneficially) as if you hand back $1m to a bunch of lower paid workers. The irony is that Bush came to power as a "uniter, not a divider" but this tax cut is squarely aimed at investors (i.e. rich people.) This just has the effect of making the rich richer and those that rely on welfare (and don't say 'they should just go out and get jobs and stop sitting on their asses' as that is just completely ignorant and childish) poorer, because of the cuts in some of these programs they benefit from.
Just as a question, because I don't know as much about the politics as the economics, surely as a republican you must expect a bit of left-appeasing welfare policies even from Bush? GWB got in on 50% of the vote, so 50% of the country think left, and 50% think right. Only the most aggressive conservatives think there is no place for welfare, social security and such like, and to remove them is a) stupid and b) never going to happen.

Avatar 18712
Re: No subject
Jan 7, 2004, 07:07
Re: No subject Jan 7, 2004, 07:07
Jan 7, 2004, 07:07
You know Phenomena, sentence structure would really help me take you seriously.

You should rub a few facts together before you label me ignorant.


Since the top 1% of the tax base pay nearly 95% of the total taxes paid yearly, they are gonna receive a bigger chunk of the tax cut. If you knew anything about our tax structuring, you would know that already. So, basically, ANY tax cut is going to favor the wealthy by virtue of the percentage they pay.

You seem to think rich people are taking advantage of lower income people. That is ignorant. Were you ever hired by a poor person? No. Those people drive the economy. They are the people who hire employees and create wealth.


I am not a homophobe. I don't agree with marital status in their case, though. I could care less what they do in the comfort of their own home. But, if you let same-sex marirages happen, clever straight people will marry each other to receive insurance, tax, and benefits meant for a child bearing family.


Just keep your eyes closed. You aren't gonna like all the good economic news you see the next year or so. I am sorry you cannot even admit it when the US is doing well. So sad.


Social securtiy, medicaid, medicare, welfare, perscription drugs. Those are the reasons for the debt. Those programs are (with the exception of the pandering Percription Drug bill) are Lib work.

I am all for eliminating the deficit and reducing the debt. What program do you want to cut first?

Blind devotion.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Bush on a number of issues. The Dept of Homeland Security is a Dept bound for failure as long as our borders are open. The Precription Drug act was the worst pandering done by any president in a long while. It is a wholly worthless program which will only burden our tax base more and cost us billions in the long run. And, finally, the amnesty program announced today. It is an insult to all those who came here legally to grant amnesty to law breakers.

I pity you, Phenomena. You talk about MY blind devotion while you spout the party line verbatim. Isn't there anything YOU disagree with your party about?

No subject
Jan 7, 2004, 03:26
No subject Jan 7, 2004, 03:26
Jan 7, 2004, 03:26
It never ceases to amaze me to what lengths an extremist from either party will go to distance themselves from the other when they always have and always will be two sides of the same coin. You're so rabid in your blind devotion to your political demagogue you don't even realise the depths of your ignorance. You continue to just label people liberal or assume that they think a certain way without knowing one way or another it makes any sort of debate with you, as Phaelog put it, like arguing with a wall. One might as well decend to your level before leaving to seek debate with one who has more than two brain cells to rub together. As I have mentioned already, the US didn't go into Iraq to help its people because the US has never cared one way or another what happens to people the world over. Nothing you said disputed that, and saying the UN was some sort of barrier to that effect is highly amusing and a typical "pass the buck" attitude. You still just blather on with "my business is good hence the economy is good." Sure the tax cuts have helped small businesses. Didn't do much to help the lower and middle income families who are going buy the goods produced by these busniesses (the ultra rich made out great though...they even got a special IRS form for receving rebates in excess of $1 million). The only way the tax cut is going to work is if the people put back almost all the rebate money back into the economy and studies done be universities show only about a third is comming back, the rest has been saved or used to pay down debt (consumer debt is the highest its been in 10 or 20 years....about 2 trillion). Last but not least, apparently you are a homophobe. How is gay marrage going to "collapse the whole point of marriage"? Are you suggesting if enough gay people marry some mystic shield will prevent straight couples from getting married? As a miserable example of a human being, you have my heart felt pity.

Re: Moog Operator
Jan 6, 2004, 19:36
Re: Moog Operator Jan 6, 2004, 19:36
Jan 6, 2004, 19:36
I disagree.

While not familiar with the economic history of the UK, I can tell you that the US has historically proven that significant tax cuts stimulate the economy. The Kennedy, Reagan, and Bush cuts are the most apparent and demonstrable in the last few decades. But, the same has proven true in the micro government (states) scale as well.

And, the inverse applies as well. Higher taxes have historically dulled our economy.

The deficit is definately a problem. It could easily be handled by sensible spending, though. Cutting the pork and redirecting that towards the DEBT and eliminating the deficit is the logical solution. It seems that neither party knows what sensible spending is at the moment. Governments rarely do. That's not surprising since most of the people in the US don't know the difference between the debt and the deficit.

There's some folks in Boston that thought taxes were a real big deal.........

This comment was edited on Jan 6, 19:45.
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 6, 2004, 19:15
Re: Moog Operator Jan 6, 2004, 19:15
Jan 6, 2004, 19:15
Being from the UK, where our politics work slightly differently, I won't get in on the debate as far as republicans vs democrats. However, as an economist I would make the point that these tax cuts are not the reason for the recovery, indeed nothing any administration does in the form of tax cuts/rises ever really does. The economy fluctuates around a natural level, independent (in the long run) of tax cuts. However, the short term effect just happens to tie in with election year. It'll be the second term, where they have to start tackling a 5% deficit that they'll have their work cut out convincing you they're still good policies.
Ironically, the tax cuts have been structured in such a way that *in general* investment in machinery is a better prospect than hiring employees, so the effect on unemployment may be somewhat diminished.
I won't argue that the economy is turning a corner, and I'm glad to hear you're enjoying success, but I will argue that it wouldn't have happened anyway, regardless of administration.

......... I swear this was a Vice City forum not so long ago .....

Avatar 18712
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 6, 2004, 17:34
Re: Moog Operator Jan 6, 2004, 17:34
Jan 6, 2004, 17:34
I'll take Four Phenomena first:

My business (and just about every other business) is taking off because of the Bush tax cuts. If you want to close your eyes to a good economy, fine. I'll continue to bank while you bitch about it. If you want to talk about jobs, you can blame your own party. High taxes, environmentalists, lawsuits, and unions sent those jobs overseas. Those fine things you can lay solely at the feet of liberals.

I got no problem with gays. I DO have a problem with giving them marital status. That is for couples who can bear children. Letting anybody marry would collapse the whole point of marriage as a concept.

Sudan? You DO know that Clinton was presiding during a lot of the Sudanese civil war? Yeah. We fucked up and let people be slaughtered. Blaming that on the democrats OR republicans is just irresponsible. Blaming it on the UN would be more in line with the facts. They refused to do anything about it while the slaughter was going on.

China abuses it's people, yes. And, it has nukes. It also has a little place called Hong Kong that is changing the country from within. Capitalism is the future for China. Bank on it.

Kurds? Yup. They were slaughtered. You blame that on Bush? Maybe you should take a look at what the UN was saying at the time. The UN insisted that removing Iraqi troops from Kuwait was all that was mandated. I believe it was a mistake to pull out. But, that is all hindsight now. Funny you forget what an uproar the Libs made when it was even suggested that Saddam be removed from power.

Rwanda? Ummmm That was Clinton as president. I guess he didn't care about them, either. The UN Security counsel did nothing, either. And, you wonder why this Administration holds the UN in contempt? The UN is about the most corrupt body politic on the planet. You can lay millions of deaths at their feet. Should the US have stepped in? Hell yes! But, people like you would have fought tooth and nail against saving those people.

If you had an education, you would know that unions work contrary to capitalizm. It's practically legal extortion. There was a need for unions before we had equitable pay-scale laws and the minimum wage. Now all they do is drive up the costs of merchandise and send our manufacturing jobs overseas. Don't believe me? Write a letter to one of the larger manufacturing companies and ask them. They will be happy to give you their opinion.

Ummmm Today's news headlines should tell you what is happening in N. Korea. They are caving. Like the rest of the dictator nations. Read it and weep.

It's funny how liberals in America want equal rights for everybody but are willing to let half the population of the world go without. Nice. I see the compassion. The fact is that we now have an administration that is willing to do the hard thing and to remove these governments from power. You talk about these dead people, but if it were suggested we move troops in to help them, you would be dead-set against it. The hypocracy is evident.

Now, Moog:

Just your statement that G. Bush (1st) AUTHORIZED the gassing of the Kurds makes anything else you say moot. You are an idiot if you think that Bush authorized that. Even stating something like that shows your stupidity and hatred. If it was a typo, fine. Anything else is just bullshit.

And, as to parenting...... I see people who have a $300,000 house, 3 cars, a boat, and a nice expensive vacation send their children to day care and wonder why they turn out idiots. Maybe if the priorities were to raise the child instead of aquiring wealth, we would have better parenting and better children. Anybody who sends their child to day-care to be raised by total strangers deserves the child they end up with. These are the same parents who bitch and moan about video games when their kids do something stupid. They aren't parenting, they are providing. There is a big difference.

Those were two big posts, so remind me about what I missed and I will be happy to debate it's merits with you peeps.

Re: Moog Operator
Jan 6, 2004, 15:49
Re: Moog Operator Jan 6, 2004, 15:49
Jan 6, 2004, 15:49
Inkswitch, you are a complete moron. LEts take this sentence: Basically, if you are an American liberal, you condone and support, mass-murder, sexual oppression, a failed US economy, religious oppression, wealth hording, and unstable governments who support terrorism with WOMDs.
Then, we will change one word, and add a few examples
Basically, if you are an American republican, you condone and support, mass-murder (see Iraq 1990-current, Afghanistan 1979-1992, Installation of Pinochet etc), sexual oppression (lets teach abstinence in school, tell kids fucking before marriage is a sin, and cut aid to countries in Africa who tell their citizens about those ruberrized pregnancy and AIDS preventing sin contraptions - condoms), a failed US economy (451 BILLION deficit in one year? 30 million jaerbs lost? BUT THE GDP IS UP!!!), religious oppression (see current war on Islam), wealth hoarding (Halliburton war profiteering, Lockheed MArtin war profiteering, carlyle group), and unstable governments who support terrorism with WOMDs (such as George the First who armed Iraq to the teeth in the first place; authorized Iraq ot use chemical weapons on Kurds at Halabja, armed israel to the teeth, etc).
Parent's who cannot watch their kids all the time are working stiffs/slaves who work two full time jaerbs just to pay their bills. This is reality for millions of Americans today, and will be for multitudes more in the future, if this economic recovery doesn't slow down.

Oh, and as for the unemployment rate being a lagging indicator, it is a completely manipulated indicator. Since you cannot be on unemployment for longer than 6 weeks, and percentage of people on unemployment is where the government gets its stats for it, officially, as time goes on, YES UNEMPLOYMENT (recievers, as a percent) IS GOING DOWN!! Moron... only too late, if it is allowed to continue, will you fools see just how bad Bush realy is.

This comment was edited on Jan 6, 15:54.
Re: Moog Operator
Jan 6, 2004, 15:34
Re: Moog Operator Jan 6, 2004, 15:34
Jan 6, 2004, 15:34
Your business is seeing progress therefor the economy is the best its been in two decades? Are you high? Saying Libya and Iran are "caving in" due to a "showing of strength" doesn't make it so. I can just as easily say that the same "showing of strength" is solely responsible for North Korea's nuclear weapons research. Doesn't make it true. Sanctity of Marriage is Bush's, and most other republicans and some democrats, campaign to make gay marriage unconstitutional. I assume it was mentioned since you said liberals condone sexual oppresion (a statement of a true idiot if there ever was one). Since you like putting words in other peoples mouths, it would seem you don't think gay people count for being oppressed. Finally, yes the USA cannot claim they went into Iraq to help its people because they gave weapons to Iran as well as Iraq during the Iran/Iraq War. They also convinced the Kurds to fight against Sadam during the Gulf War and then when we gave up and left them to their fate they got gassed (with the very weapons the US and UK sold to Iraq years before.) Then there's Rwanda, which you conviniently ignored, or human rights violations in China (plus they have nukes), or the LRA in Uganda, or the civil war in Sudan, or many others? Are you just going to stick your fingers in years and ignore all these examples and just keep repeating "400,000 deaths" like some retard? What about the 2 million Sudanese deaths linked to Sudanese government policies and war? What about the 2 million Pol Pot murdered in Cambodia? You are so full of shit I can smell the stink from here. You ignore that which disproves your erroneous statements, spout dubious logic with no facts to back it up, and hwarf up ideological mentalities that are almost funny ("unions are bad!") Looking forward to watching you make a continued ass of yourself.

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