That's exactly what I mean, Hendrix was a great musician, but his skill as a guitar player is overrated. I'm talking about popularity vs. actual merit. Hendrix was a very popular guitarist, but I think one should be able to play the guitar better before they're called a guitar god. He deserves to be popular, but for different reasons.

Okay I see what you mean, although I'm not sure I necessarily agree, as I can't think of any guitar players who I thought were more gifted in terms of skill. To be fair though, I'm not a guitar player, so I'm probably not a very good judge of skill.

The reason they're up there is because they put out *more* top-quality music than anyone else... I don't think any other band put out five albums that could all equal Sgt. Pepper,....

I see where you're coming from, and I do agree that they were hugely influential (alhtough I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the no other band put out five albums part). And while influence may be "more" quantifiable than "anything else", it is still ineheritently unquantifiable. How many more times influencial were the Beatles to say Hendrix? Or Hendrix to say Led Zeppelin? Or Led Zeppelin to Radiohead? The best answer you can give is something to the effect of "way more", which doesn't sound very quantifiable to me.

You are absolutely right though that it is impossible to escape the Beatles influence. BUT part of the reason for that is *when* they came along. Of course they sounded different, there was so little to compare them to. Don't get me wrong, all four of them are amongst the all-time greats in terms of musicianship and song-writing ability (well maybe not Ringo, but I don't want to go down that road ;P).

PZ
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently Reading: Nothing! I need a new book -- Last Read: John Man's "The Gutenburg Revolution"

Springsteen IS overrated. A talented musician, sure. But WAY overhyped...

http://www.petshopboys.co.uk/

Okay I just don't see that one, if anything it seems to me that nowadays Hendrix is underrated, not overrated. It seems to me that Hendrix is the epiotomy of what it is to be a "Guitar God", the very definition of the term. I suppose though that's using popularity to measure greatness (which may or may not be fair).

That's exactly what I mean, Hendrix was a great musician, but his skill as a guitar player is overrated. I'm talking about popularity vs. actual merit. Hendrix was a very popular guitarist, but I think one should be able to play the guitar better before they're called a guitar god. He deserves to be popular, but for different reasons.

then that seems to me to necessarily mean that that one band is several orders of magnitude "greater" than any and all other bands in history, which is a gross overstatement

The reason they're up there is because they put out *more* top-quality music than anyone else. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're that much better anyone else, but I don't think any other band put out five albums that could all equal Sgt. Pepper, Revolver, Rubber Soul, The White Album, and Abbey Road. Also, very few bands have a single songwriter as good as McCartney, Lennon, or Harrison, let alone three of them. And influence is definitely more quantifiable than anything else, and I think it's hard to argue that any pop band was more influential than The Beatles. They were at the bleeding edge -- they set a new standard for everything, including what song lyrics could be about, what instruments could be used, what recording techniques were employed, etc. When Sgt. Peppers came out, no one had seen or heard things like that from pop musicians before. Everyone heard their music and assimilated it into theirs. Its impossible to escape their influence, again because of the sheer amount of brilliant material they produced.

~Steve

Ouch!

Truth hurts, don't it? (sorry couldn't resist)

mainstream "Guitar God" status and is often elevated beyond where he deserves to be

Okay I just don't see that one, if anything it seems to me that nowadays Hendrix is underrated, not overrated. It seems to me that Hendrix is the epiotomy of what it is to be a "Guitar God", the very definition of the term. I suppose though that's using popularity to measure greatness (which may or may not be fair).

But okay, replace "greatest" with "most important" or "most influential" if you like.

Okay, but still I wouldn't necessarily agree, although I suppose it depends on what you mean by "important" or "influential" (two terms that I would argue mean very different things, both of which of course are completely subjective and unquantifiable).

Don't get me wrong, the Beatles definately rank right up there amongst the all-time greats (or important, or influential), but their greatness seems to me to be overstated. If you say that 3 of the 5 greatest albums in history are by one band, then that seems to me to necessarily mean that that one band is several orders of magnitude "greater" than any and all other bands in history, which is a gross overstatement, regardless of whether the criteria is "greatness", "influence", or "importance" (even if there was some way of accurately measuring these characteristics).


PZ
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently Reading: Nothing! I need a new book -- Last Read: John Man's "The Gutenburg Revolution"
This comment was edited on Nov 25, 01:39.

Ok, since this thread will be going away soon and I there wont be too much time to give me flack over this, here are the most overrated artists in my book:

U2
Bruce Springsteen
REM

There are lots of artist that I don't particularly like to listen to like the Stones, the Beach Boys, or even Elvis, but I do see how important and influential they all were. But with the three groups I listed above... I just don't see it. I like some of their songs and don't hate any of them, but I just don't see how they all got put on the pedestals that many listeners and critics put them.


-----------------------------------------
Please move along people. Nothing to see here.

they were the most overrated band in 20th century pop music

Ouch! Say that about Hendrix and I might agree. I dunno, anything that crosses over into the mainstream and is generally accepted as "brilliant" is both overrated and not, all at the same time. People not well-versed in music (or whatever art form) may simply accept it as "genius" because that's what they're told, and naturally it sounds pleasing to their ears, although they may not be able to explain it in technical terms. Therefore they may miss the point entirely. For example, Hendrix was not a very technically accomplished guitar player, but he has attained mainstream "Guitar God" status and is often elevated beyond where he deserves to be. What people miss, however, is his innovation of merging pop, blues, and psychadelia, the way he changed how the electric guitar is viewed through his use of things like wah, the whammy bar, and feedback, and the subtle nuances of his playing that have arguably not been duplicated since. So it's a tricky issue, but I digress.

But okay, replace "greatest" with "most important" or "most influential" if you like.

~Steve

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 22:28.

The Beatles have 3 of the top 5 because they were the greatest band in 20th century pop music.

Agree to disagree (seen as how they were the most overrated band in 20th century pop music).


PZ
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently Reading: John Man's "The Gutenburg Revolution" -- Last Read: Janice Gross Stein's "Cult of Efficiency"
This comment was edited on Nov 24, 18:45.

Like I said, I have no problem with the Beatles ranked up near the top, but 3 of the top 5? Uhm, no.

Why? I think any albums on that list that weren't ranked higher than Sgt. Pepper, Revolver, and Rubber Soul don't deserve to be. The Beatles have 3 of the top 5 because they were the greatest band in 20th century pop music.

I mean c'mon! Nirvana, Joni Mitchell, and Sex Pistols to name a few were rated higher (and I use that term loosely) then Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon?

I agree. Come on, Dark Side... it's fucking Dark Side, man!

~Steve

And exactly how did the Album that has been on the Billboard 500 longer then any other album only rank 43???

I mean c'mon! Nirvana, Joni Mitchell, and Sex Pistols to name a few were rated higher (and I use that term loosely) then Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon?

Rolling Stone editors must be on crack....

And yea, I don't see how Zeppelin I is greater than IV, or that Nirvana's Nevermind is higher. Come on, I think Nevermind is a great album and I realize its cultural impact, but I think it's a few steps below Zep IV.

Absolutely, although I get the feeling I'd be rankig Nevermind higher than you. It'd definately make my top 10 of all time.

It's hard for me to disagree with their Beatles picks, although I think I'd swap Sgt. Peppers and Revolver.

Like I said, I have no problem with the Beatles ranked up near the top, but 3 of the top 5? Uhm, no.

316. Rock Steady, No Doubt
496. Destroyer, Kiss

Hehe, okay now if that isn't proof this list is a joke, then I don't know what is. Although Domino was a fine piece of musical craftmanship.

PZ
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently Reading: John Man's "The Gutenburg Revolution" -- Last Read: Janice Gross Stein's "Cult of Efficiency"

The drums are exactly, EXACTLY the same. It's a little difficult to hear because of different synth programming but they are exactly the same. Guitar is used in both songs (not to common for a SP song) and in both cases they sound very similar. Some of the synth sounds similar as well. Down in it is still a fairly good song it just isn't a good example of Trent's creativity.

was bothers me about the list is that it appears that almost every U2 album is listed, except The Unforgettable Fire, which i consider to be right up there with Joshua Tree. maybe they just forgot that album... or maybe it's there and my eyes refuse to see it?

- tron -

---
"tron is big and tron is full of action"
-from the Tron 2.0 box

Pretty Hate Machine was too formulaic and at times was a direct rip off of better songs. *cough*Dig it/Down in it*cough*

Trent admits that he kinda ripped skinny puppy off on that one but to be honest I can't really hear it.

the best part about life is knowing you put it together

NIN = some guy making noises on a computer that, when forced to play live...wasnt very lively, at all.

That's the most bizarre statement I've ever seen.

NIN Pretty Hate Machine was SO much better than Downward Sprial

Pretty Hate Machine was too formulaic and at times was a direct rip off of better songs. *cough*Dig it/Down in it*cough*

Downward Spiral on the other was pretty inventive and did a good job of making industrial appealing to a larger niche.

Also, I cant believe Stabbing Westward wasnt on that list yet NIN was, WTF is THAT SHIT about?

Perhaps because Stabbing Westward is heavily influenced by the NIN album mentioned?

wasrad-- If that is your opinion I doubt you have ever seen nine inch nails live. NIN will blow any band off the fucking stage, man. I have never been to a show that had the same kinda energy as nine inch nails. Not to mention nine inch nails has done more for modern music than stabbing westward. And if you think stabbing westward didn't use a computer to engineer their music then you are seriously mistaken.

***edit
BTW I saw stabbing westward Live a couple times in the mid 90's with Drill and gravity kills. Don't get me wrong they are great, man. Die Warzau is one of my favorites too but Stabbing Westward just doesn't compare to nine inch nails. Of course, I am an nin fanboy so I am somewhat bias in my opinion.


the best part about life is knowing you put it together
This comment was edited on Nov 24, 09:04.

SW = a band that could rock out hardcore LIVE

NIN = some guy making noises on a computer that, when forced to play live...wasnt very lively, at all.

Zep's "Untitled" (not IV, although it is commonly refered to as this)

Huh? Yea it's Untitled, well the series of symbols could be considered its title, but it's still Zeppelin IV. And yea, I don't see how Zeppelin I is greater than IV, or that Nirvana's Nevermind is higher. Come on, I think Nevermind is a great album and I realize its cultural impact, but I think it's a few steps below Zep IV.

EDIT: Oh, and Dark Side? Come on. I don't think Nevermind can touch Dark Side.

It's hard for me to disagree with their Beatles picks, although I think I'd swap Sgt. Peppers and Revolver. They seem confused as to whether they were talking about the "500 most culturally significant albums" or the "500 greatest albums." Maybe for them great encompasses that, but I consider it mostly based on the music alone.

EDIT: And I'd put OK Computer above The Bends... and a whole lot of other things.

Nice to see Slanted and Enchanted by Pavement and Weezer's blue album. I think blue needed to be higher though, and so did Wish You Were Here.

Oh, and:

316. Rock Steady, No Doubt
496. Destroyer, Kiss

Hm, what?

~Steve

This comment was edited on Nov 24, 03:03.

Misc replies to various posts:

I think a System of a Down album should be on that list as well. They've rengineered metal. Toxicity should probably be on the list. There isn't a bad song on the album, but there are some VERY good ones.

Huh??? Okay SOAD is a great band, and I completely agree that Toxicity was a fine piece of work, but it is nowhere near the realm of "all-time greats". As for not being any bad songs, what about that stupid "Pogo" song (can't remember the name)?

At least Britney Spears is not ANYWHERE on the list.

ROTFLMAO, and neither is Justin Timberlake, N'Sync, New Kids on the Block, or any similar multi-platinum UBER-CRAP.

My favorite Canadian musician: Colin James.

Dude, without a doubt the Tragically Hip are the greatest Canadian band going. Rush, Neil Young, and the Guess Who rank right up there as amongst the all-time greats, but the Hip's still #1 in my book.

As for my general comments on the list itself, I have no problem with the Beatles being #1, but 3 of the top 5? Or for that matter 2 of the top 3? Come on. Oh well at least the White Album (which is my fav Beatles album) is in the top 10.

Nice to see they've at least somewhat realized that the greatest rock and roll band (Led Zep of course) in history's music is worth noting, even if they didn't come into the list until #29, and even though they called it the wrong name (their first disc is usually referred to as "I", and is not self-titled). And of course, there is no way the record containing Stairway to Heaven can be considered their second best work. Zep's "Untitled" (not IV, although it is commonly refered to as this) is without a doubt the record that ranks #1 in my top 500 of all time list. You want a disc that has no weak links, that's the one, start to finish absolute all time classic great tracks.

PZ
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently Reading: John Man's "The Gutenburg Revolution" -- Last Read: Janice Gross Stein's "Cult of Efficiency"