etc.

  • Violent video games are training children to kill (thanks Mike Martinez). Wonder what bad journalism is teaching?...
  • The Official Postal 2 Website (thanks Frans) has word that Running with Scissors will be self-publishing the upcoming multiplayer-enabled version of Postal 2...
  • "Noted record producer and composer, CHRIS VRENNA, has been tapped by EA to compose and produce two new songs for the upcoming video game THE SIMS™ 2."...
  • "Groove Games, a global publisher of interactive entertainment software today announced the shipping of Desert Thunder™ for the PC to most major retail stores. The game that drops gamers in the hot seat of one of the military’s most advanced battle engines can be found on store shelves this week at a suggested retail price of $19.99."...
  • Worthplaying has posted the Total Club Manager 2004 Demo mentioned in this space yesterday, saying they have the whole magilla for folks that may have had trouble with partial downloads elsewhere...
View : : :
22 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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22.
 
Re: Games Teach Kids To Kill
Nov 21, 2003, 08:54
22.
Re: Games Teach Kids To Kill Nov 21, 2003, 08:54
Nov 21, 2003, 08:54
 
So does the Army. Maybe it should have a rating sticker on it.

You cant join the army as a 10 year old.., so I guess it has rating already..

I bet M.A.V is a sub-division of the NRA.

GUNNSS!
-Charlton Heston.

Red Orchestra http://www.unrealwarfarex.com/redorchestra/ Best. game. ever.
21.
 
Games Teach Kids To Kill
Nov 20, 2003, 21:13
21.
Games Teach Kids To Kill Nov 20, 2003, 21:13
Nov 20, 2003, 21:13
 
So does the Army. Maybe it should have a rating sticker on it.

-tAE-

Avatar 473
20.
 
Re: Bad Journalism
Nov 20, 2003, 17:38
20.
Re: Bad Journalism Nov 20, 2003, 17:38
Nov 20, 2003, 17:38
 
Halsy:

The AMA and APA would disagree with your assessment. Violent media desensitizes people to violence. That's a fact, so their statement is entirely fair and accurate. It's called passive conditioning. It's not much different from military active conditioning where you strip a normal law abiding man down and build him back up into a killing machine.

I'm not arguing the point that being exposed to violent media desensitizes people to violence. But I'm not willing to make the leap that France makes, from desensitization to willingness to duplicate, either on the part of most children or most adults. Perhaps a very small subset of the population lacks a vital mental facility that prevents them from hurting others, and exposure to violent videogames will push them over the edge. Most people, though, can absorb that kind of stimulation without being compelled to duplicate it. The idea that videogames take completely normal people and remove their inhibitions towards hurting others is false.

The guy is concerned for his kids and society. You can't fault him for that. It takes a village to raise a child, so to speak. The fact is that a lot of parents are bad parents, and those problem children grow up into problem adults in society. The whole "don't tell me how to raise my kids" is bullshit. If people knew how to best raise their children, no one would would ever have to criticize other parents. As far as I'm concerned, I'd love to see some sort of mandatory licensing/course required for people who want to have children. There are just way too many people having kids that shouldn't be. They're just not equipped to handle it and society ends up paying for it in everyway.


But then where do you draw the line? At what point is it time for others to inflict their opinions on raising children on me? Sure, child abuse should never be tolerated, but what about borderline issues like kids sleeping in their parent's bed, and breastfeeding til an older age than the accepted American norm?

France's concern for society and his children is an admirable emotion; but at the point where he crosses the line from concern and protecting of his own to inaccurate scare-mongering and promotion of restrictive, unrealistic censorship policies, he loses my vote.

I would argue that people that spoil their children and teach them rampant consumerism and selfishness are doing more ultimate harm to society than those that allow their children to play video games.

For the record, I have two children, aged 2 and 5, and I do not allow them access to the more violent videogames, or indeed even play them when my kids can watch. But I'm taking my kids' exposure to these things into my OWN hands, where it belongs, not leaving the responsibility with my neighbor, with society, or with government.

It's all about personal reponsibility...

This comment was edited on Nov 20, 17:38.
19.
 
Re: tweaker
Nov 20, 2003, 16:51
nin
19.
Re: tweaker Nov 20, 2003, 16:51
Nov 20, 2003, 16:51
nin
 
Not that it is a bad thing, but it looks as though Chris has shed his association with nine inch nails to becoame an artist in his own right. Right on, Chris!

Yeah, I was a little surprised that wasn't mentioned. 'Bout time...

http://www.blackrebelmotorcycleclub.com/
18.
 
No subject
Nov 20, 2003, 16:49
18.
No subject Nov 20, 2003, 16:49
Nov 20, 2003, 16:49
 
Wow and i always figured the problem with violence and children was with the news outlets showing the results of bombings and shootings every 10 minutes. Or having to make actors of school shootings or acts of violence infamous by retelling the story every year.

Wonder what video game taught bonnie and clyde how to rob and murder

17.
 
No subject
Nov 20, 2003, 16:32
17.
No subject Nov 20, 2003, 16:32
Nov 20, 2003, 16:32
 
Gee, I must have missed the game where you get to "urinate on and kick the dead bodies of your victims while making crude and suggestive sexual remarks to those dead bodies." Wow...what a loss (ri-i-i-i-ight.) In 18 years of computer gaming I haven't seen this once--and if someone ever does make something like that I'm quite sure that few will buy it.

The man who wrote this article is truly a sick puppy.

When I was a boy we didn't have any videogames. But we all got toy guns, holsters, cowboy boots & 10-gallon hats, and we often played "cowboys & indians"--a game in which we pretended to shoot each other with our toy guns and bows and arrows. Or, if we got bored with that we played "Army" and pretended we were shooting each other in that venue--or we played football or basketball or baseball, etc., where broken and sprained limbs were often a result. I grew up with a lot of friends who did these things along with me and none of us has ever murdered anyone. Not even close.

I like to think it's because our parents taught us not only the difference between reality and fantasy, but also the difference between right & wrong.

If learning how to draw and fire my cap pistols didn't "teach me" how to use real guns to kill people, then it's for certain that using a keyboard and a mouse isn't going to "teach me" how to do it, either. Somebody please wake me when they start handing out pilot's licenses for successfully flying through Microsoft Flight Simulator. (I'll never fly again...:))

The poor chap who wrote this article is quite sick, and definitely needs professional help.

It is well known that I cannot err--and so, if you should happen across an error in anything I have written you can be absolutely sure that *I* did not write it!...;)
Avatar 16008
16.
 
tweaker
Nov 20, 2003, 16:30
16.
tweaker Nov 20, 2003, 16:30
Nov 20, 2003, 16:30
 
Noted record producer and composer, CHRIS VRENNA

Not that it is a bad thing, but it looks as though Chris has shed his association with nine inch nails to becoame an artist in his own right. Right on, Chris!

the best part about life is knowing you put it together
15.
 
Re: Bad Journalism
Nov 20, 2003, 16:14
15.
Re: Bad Journalism Nov 20, 2003, 16:14
Nov 20, 2003, 16:14
 
A few problems rondal....

Then, it goes on to say that Janice Ellis and Bruce Eklund are "dismayed with game-based human behavior that transcends mere violence." This, like so many other statements in the article, appears to be a throwaway statement, because this "game-based human behavior," whatever that is, is never defined. How it "transcends mere violence" is never explained.

What's to explain? Do you actually need them to spell that out? It's not a thesis for them to argue. It's a quote in a column that pretty clearly spells out their concern. I'll grant you it would make a good paper, but let's stay focused here.

Somehow, the dehumanization that Ridgeway and other serial killers inflict on their victims is translated into video games: a neat semantic trick, but not an assertion that holds water. France's statement "...this is largely what... video games do. Make victims into something much less than human..." is designed to shame those who enjoy playing games; somehow, if you play a game that contains killing of imaginary entities who don't exist, in a context entirely disconnected from reality, you are no better than Ridgeway himself. There seems to be a disconnect here, a basic inability to distinguish fact from fiction, reality from fantasy.

The AMA and APA would disagree with your assessment. Violent media desensitizes people to violence. That's a fact, so their statement is entirely fair and accurate. It's called passive conditioning. It's not much different from military active conditioning where you strip a normal law abiding man down and build him back up into a killing machine.

One of the most disturbing statements in the entire article, the statement that truly belies the fascist nature of the article and its author, is this: "So parents have to first protect and nurture their own children, but it helps when they also help protect and nurture other children." The idea that my neighbor would help protect and nurture my children, rather than allowing me to set my own boundaries and levels of acceptability for my own children, reminds one of the rallying cries made by terrorists, religious extremists, Crusaders, and all others who would force their way of life upon others.

The guy is concerned for his kids and society. You can't fault him for that. It takes a village to raise a child, so to speak. The fact is that a lot of parents are bad parents, and those problem children grow up into problem adults in society. The whole "don't tell me how to raise my kids" is bullshit. If people knew how to best raise their children, no one would would ever have to criticize other parents. As far as I'm concerned, I'd love to see some sort of mandatory licensing/course required for people who want to have children. There are just way too many people having kids that shouldn't be. They're just not equipped to handle it and society ends up paying for it in everyway.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go polish my homicidal skills with some CS.


"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. Where the laws do not operate, there is no reality."
- Mr. Spock
"And then, suddenly and without warning, it turned into a real-life case of hungry, hungry hippos."
- Stephen Colbert
14.
 
Re: Violent Video Games...
Nov 20, 2003, 15:43
14.
Re: Violent Video Games... Nov 20, 2003, 15:43
Nov 20, 2003, 15:43
 
If this argument were true, why is overall crime down 16% since 1993 and games sales have climbed exponentially?

You're missing a few things here first of all.

A) Murder and rape actually rose (1% and 5%), and violent crime in general only dropped by under 1%.

B) Society always shadows the economy. So as the economy got better crime came down 16% over the last decade.

C) The general feeling among law enforcement is not so much that crime is coming down as people are ceasing to report it. The feeling seems to be that more people are taking matters into their own hands, or just don't want to get entangled with the police and the legal system (cost associated with lawyers). All estimates certainly show that youth violence (fighting) has been on the rise in a big way. It's just much harder to qualify if it hasn't been a police issue.

That there's a definite and provable correlation between violent media and desensitization to violence is a no brainer. To what degree this affects the mainstream is the long term concern.



"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. Where the laws do not operate, there is no reality."
- Mr. Spock
"And then, suddenly and without warning, it turned into a real-life case of hungry, hungry hippos."
- Stephen Colbert
13.
 
Wow
Nov 20, 2003, 15:32
13.
Wow Nov 20, 2003, 15:32
Nov 20, 2003, 15:32
 
That is horrible. That is the worst flow I have ever seen in any article ever. With all that hippity-skippity between topics he lost me waaaay back on the first paragraph. I know 11 year olds who could write a better flowing article then that.

Avatar 17249
12.
 
Re: Bad Journalism
Nov 20, 2003, 15:11
12.
Re: Bad Journalism Nov 20, 2003, 15:11
Nov 20, 2003, 15:11
 
Hah, it's funny reading all the responses it got in their forum.

Edit: Rondalescott -- *please* tell me you sent that to the Herald as a response.

He did, bottom of the page: http://forums.heraldnet.com/viewmessages.cfm?forum=3&topic=12560&sr=31


This comment was edited on Nov 20, 15:15.
This space is available for rent
11.
 
Good response
Nov 20, 2003, 15:09
11.
Good response Nov 20, 2003, 15:09
Nov 20, 2003, 15:09
 
Rondalescott -- *please* tell me you sent that to the Herald as a response.

Nicely done!


____________
the mars volta
_______________
tapes 'n' tapes
tapes 'n' tapes
tapes 'n' tapes
tapes 'n' tapes
Avatar 10323
10.
 
Re: Bad Journalism
Nov 20, 2003, 14:43
10.
Re: Bad Journalism Nov 20, 2003, 14:43
Nov 20, 2003, 14:43
 
Excellent response. Send this to the editor of the newspaper; I doubt they'll publish it, but there's always a chance.

9.
 
Bad Journalism
Nov 20, 2003, 14:33
9.
Bad Journalism Nov 20, 2003, 14:33
Nov 20, 2003, 14:33
 
Honestly, there are so many things to object to in the piece that I'm unsure of exactly where to start.

I suppose I may as well start at the top. Now, my journalism's a little rusty, it having been several years since I had any kind of formal education in the trade, but I seem to remember something about how headlines are supposed to be verifiably true statements of fact, and not simple statements of opinion. A headline of "24 Car Pileup on I-90 Results In Deaths, Injuries" would be correct, but a headline of "Violent video games are training children to kill" would not. Even adding the words "Asserts Local Father" would have done the trick. If the article had been posted as an Op/Ed piece, it would have been permissable, but as a news feature, it's simply bad journalism. Perhaps, just perhaps, the title would have succeeded had it cited an influential and unquestionable research study, but it doesn't do that either.

As a matter of fact, as I scan the article, it appears to be so fact-free that it's a wonder anyone allowed it to be published in the first place.

It cites absolutely no specific games, using the laughable excuse "because I won't advertise them", as if the vulnerable, impressionable children Mr France purports to care about may read his article and get the idea to go out and buy the videogames in question. Unfortunately this robs the article of any kind of journalistic integrity or quality; without a bibliography, Mr France appears to be quoting from second- or third-hand accounts of video games, without reliable sources and without experiencing the games himself.

The article speciously conjures the specter of Gary Ridgeway in a muddled, ill-conceived attempt to draw a correlation between the worst serial killer America has ever had and playing video games, even though there is no logical or semantic connection between the two phenomenons other than the fact that they both feature violence. Somehow, Gary Ridgeway is supposed to serve as some sort of cautionary tale: "If your kids play violent video games, they might end up like this guy!" But no evidence of this claim is offered.

Then, it goes on to say that Janice Ellis and Bruce Eklund are "dismayed with game-based human behavior that transcends mere violence." This, like so many other statements in the article, appears to be a throwaway statement, because this "game-based human behavior," whatever that is, is never defined. How it "transcends mere violence" is never explained.

Somehow, the dehumanization that Ridgeway and other serial killers inflict on their victims is translated into video games: a neat semantic trick, but not an assertion that holds water. France's statement "...this is largely what... video games do. Make victims into something much less than human..." is designed to shame those who enjoy playing games; somehow, if you play a game that contains killing of imaginary entities who don't exist, in a context entirely disconnected from reality, you are no better than Ridgeway himself. There seems to be a disconnect here, a basic inability to distinguish fact from fiction, reality from fantasy.

The games are presented as being dangerous because of the "simulation techniques" they employ. One of my favorite quotes in this section is "The youngsters who hold the joysticks and sit at the keyboards hold the guns and axes. Young players practice cutting heads off. They rehears shooting police officers and urinating on them."

It's worth noting here that Mr France, with a completely straight face, is asserting that holding a joystick or sitting at a keyboard actually somehow imparts the muscle memory, precision, reflexes, accuracy, and strength necessary to fire a handgun or a rifle, to swing an axe (something that we all know is a huge problem in modern society, axe murders are certainly on the rise), to decapitate a human being, to shoot a police officer, to urinate on a dead body. These statements belie a profound misunderstanding on Mr France's part of exactly how simulation works.

Mr France also states that "video games are expected to reach $20 billion in sales this year. That is a sizable piece of the growing economy everybody is hoping for, and it works directly against what most parents want for their children." The claim here is that the size of the video game industry somehow works directly against what most parents want for their children.

There are two incorrect direct or implied assumtions here: that most parents don't want their children playing games, and that the bulk of the sales of the video game industry is of violent games. The statement is inherently conflicting. The size of the industry is a direct reflection of the fact that most parents are just fine with their kids playing games, and in fact many parents today grew up playing games themselves.

Additionally, the simple expedient of even glancing at the sales charts from the last few years would demonstrate the point that the bulk of videogame sales are not of the M-rated games that Mr France is McCarthying against; rather, they are of far less potentially controversial products, like The Sims, its attendant add-on packages, and the adventure gaming classic Myst.

One of the most disturbing statements in the entire article, the statement that truly belies the fascist nature of the article and its author, is this: "So parents have to first protect and nurture their own children, but it helps when they also help protect and nurture other children." The idea that my neighbor would help protect and nurture my children, rather than allowing me to set my own boundaries and levels of acceptability for my own children, reminds one of the rallying cries made by terrorists, religious extremists, Crusaders, and all others who would force their way of life upon others.

In the end, Mr France recommends direct involvement with one's children, and supervision of their gaming habits. With this, I could not agree more. But Mr France would do well to mind his own children, and let me worry about mine. He would also do well to concentrate on facts rather than on elaborately constructed fantasies and "common wisdom" of his own manufacture.

8.
 
Re: Violent Video Games...
Nov 20, 2003, 13:28
nin
8.
Re: Violent Video Games... Nov 20, 2003, 13:28
Nov 20, 2003, 13:28
nin
 
People who are insane, murder. People who are insane have a psychological tendency to become fixated on something such as the religion, aliens, occult, Oprah Winfrey or anything else and sometimes that my be games.

You forgot Celene Dion... she's evil, I promise you.

http://www.blackrebelmotorcycleclub.com/
7.
 
Re: Violent Video Games...
Nov 20, 2003, 13:19
7.
Re: Violent Video Games... Nov 20, 2003, 13:19
Nov 20, 2003, 13:19
 
This argument always amuses me. I have 3 young children (7, 3, & 1) who I won't let play games like Postal or Half Life because of the violence and scary nature becuase it isn't good for them because I don't want them beating up someone else’s kid and I don't want them up all night with nightmares which would also cut into my gaming time

This, and most articles on this subject, fails to prove that games make people violent. If that were true, I'd be the most violent person in the world as I have played nearly every kind of game imaginable since the Atari 2600 (yes, even Myst which after a while DOES make you want to kill something, but for entirely different reasons).

If this argument were true, why is overall crime down 16% since 1993 and games sales have climbed exponentially? http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/27/crime.report.ap/index.html

If games cause violence then Hitler must have been the Quake 3 (and every other violent game) world champ. What about the Middle Ages? Sheesh, everyone killed everyone then. Cause: video games of course. Al Capone? (Played Hitman) Early Americans killing the Indians and taking there land? (Conquest, I assume.) Slave traders? (Tetris?) Bin Laden? (Surely Daikatana)

I’ll let you in on a little secret. Here’ the cause of violence in the world: People are by their very nature selfish and sometimes that selfishness spills over into violence.

People who are insane, murder. People who are insane have a psychological tendency to become fixated on something such as the religion, aliens, occult, Oprah Winfrey or anything else and sometimes that my be games.

Games don't kill people, selfishness kills people.


6.
 
Re: Violent Video Games...
Nov 20, 2003, 13:14
nin
6.
Re: Violent Video Games... Nov 20, 2003, 13:14
Nov 20, 2003, 13:14
nin
 
They rehearse shooting police officers and urinating on them.

Yeah, and we all know we need more practice peeing on things...

"MY GOD! LOOK AT HIM GO! HE MUST HAVE LEARNED TO PEE FROM A VIDEO GAME!"

http://www.blackrebelmotorcycleclub.com/
5.
 
Violent Video Games...
Nov 20, 2003, 12:47
5.
Violent Video Games... Nov 20, 2003, 12:47
Nov 20, 2003, 12:47
 
qoute:
The youngsters who hold the joysticks and sit at the keyboards hold the guns and axes. Young players practice cutting heads off. They rehearse shooting police officers and urinating on them.

lol oooookay... and the next news items is about what game?

EDIT: posted 7 minutes too late... ah well...
This comment was edited on Nov 20, 12:48.
Avatar 13889
4.
 
No subject
Nov 20, 2003, 12:46
4.
No subject Nov 20, 2003, 12:46
Nov 20, 2003, 12:46
 
Postal 2 I would presume. Only game that I can think of that has urination as feature.

3.
 
I WISH I had turned into a badass
Nov 20, 2003, 12:40
3.
I WISH I had turned into a badass Nov 20, 2003, 12:40
Nov 20, 2003, 12:40
 
I've played violent video games for years, and in spite of my hopes that it would turn me into a total badass, it pretty much just made me into a slightly nerdier guy with good mousing skills.

Out of curiosity, what game is the guy talking about in the article when he says, "The dead bodies are kicked and urinated on."?


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