Gothic II is #39 on the list and Gothic I is #45. I played Gothic I. It was a good effort; but it was way too buggy--and the controls sucked. Apparently, the die-hard RPG fans who frequent RPG Dot aren't fans of "cerebral" games like NWN and checkers. Good luck with NWN. I honestly hope you beat the high score.

<i>'You say it takes the same sort of mentality to play Morrowind as Diablo. That's ridiculous.'</i>

Ok perhaps I was a little uncharitable. But the my argument remains that once you get beyond the initial wow of the big world and enjoy some non-linear exploration for a while the game just keeps losing its shine. Very soon the difficulty is trivial unless you install fan patches, and what's infinitely worse the big world just feels emptier and emptier of character and charm. It is physically huge and filled with quests, but the NPCs are all so tedious and dull that there is no reason to participate beyond the power-up, perfectionist mentality ala Diablo.

---

BTW you can do all those things and more in the Gothic universe, and yet the combat system doesn't suck and the NPC characters blow Morrowind out of the water.

<i>'Morrowind is a game in which you can pick up a book, open it, and read it. You may find that sort of detail boring--but it's hardly something a Diablo fan would enjoy.'</i>

Excuse me, but if you see the RPGs that I listed as the better than NWN you'll see they are the kind that show incredible detail and a more cerebral experience for a mature gamer. They also have plots and worlds worth exploring.

BTW- the BG games and many others have had books for years...

This comment was edited on Nov 19, 17:24.

Well, I can't possibly argue with anyone who uses "per se" in a sentence. You're obviously a genius.

Seriously, I know what you're saying. It's just that I completely disagree with you. So do the folks at Computer Gaming World, Gamespy, RPG Vault, etc. Yes, I know NWN has won its share of awards as well--but my point is that there are those who agree with me. Morrowind is an RPG--unlike Diablo--and it's a damn good one.

Morrowind is a game that you either "get" or you don't. You don't get it. That's fine. But to compare it to Diablo? You say it takes the same sort of mentality to play Morrowind as Diablo. That's ridiculous. Morrowind is a game in which you can pick up a book, open it, and read it. You may find that sort of detail boring--but it's hardly something a Diablo fan would enjoy.

In Morrowind, I can levitate, swim, water-walk, teleport, use telekinesis, enchant weapons, pick up ingredients from creatures and plants and use them to create potions, etc.

In NWN, I can't even swim. There isn't even a sky. You want to compare the two games? Be my guest--just be honest about it.

It's not as though I wasn't looking forward to NWN. I gave it a chance. I even created my own little adventure to test out the editor. I tried playing with friends. It just didn't work out well. It was a big disappointment.

Edit: I just found this link while looking for the rpgdot review--http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10070. Morrowind is rated the number 5 rpg by readers--and NWN came in at 105. I guess I'm not alone.

This comment was edited on Nov 19, 13:53.

To 34,
No I'm not comparing them as games per se, I'm saying that the hook to keep playing them is based on a similar mentality. Neither have true role playing of any value or interest. Also I do not think NWN single player is anything special, I've never said otherwise, but imho NWN at least offers much more than Morrowind to compensate that weakness...

Rubbish, the problem is that the world that exists to explore is lifeless and boring. Contrary to what you imply, the game's problem is not the lack of a 'guiding' core story or chapter constraints, it is the game's hollow NPC population who have nothing but banal repetetive dialogue to offer, the yawn fest quests and the general lack of anything interesting or non-cliche outside the expansions...

The average Morrowind quest was no worse than your average NWN OC quest. In fact Morrowind had several quests that were very well done, something I can't say for the NWN OC.

While NPC interaction was poorly done and many were clones of eachother, there we're at least a couple NPCs per town that had some unique conversations.

I'll never forget meeting this grizzled seaman in a tavern in the Telvanni Canton of Vivic. He told a tale of some great Nord Sailor-Warrior that perished long ago. The seaman gave me a key that he had discovered that was believed to open a tomb where this guy was buried. He pointed me in the direction of where he found the key and I set off exploring. After about 90 minutes or so, I found a tomb that had a locked door within that this key fit. I opened the door and came to an even lower level that was essentially a Gorgon's Maze. After some time I got to the next level down. Laying in a pond of water was a boat. On it where the remains of the Nord Sailor-Warrior with his shield and axe across his brest and a Daedric Helm on his head. During that adventure I became completely immersed the world and was actually thinking like my character. If that isn't a great CRPG experience I don't know what is.

Morrowind also has a lot of content that you can tell your own story with. In one game I was an insane aldmer who wanted revenge on his Imperial captors. Thus I set off an a campaign of wanton violence and destruction against any and all Imperial authority. I'd cast levitation and fly over Fort Walls and proceed to shoot fireball after fireball at the fleeing Imperial soldiers.

Morrowind really was a unique game. It is most certainly flawed, and you have to use your imagination quite a bit to fill in the gaps but in the end it had something NWN didn't: fun.

Furious, you can set the NPC to stand ground and such if and when needed. Otherwise they will attack nearest enemy or whatever setting you have them on. Been a long while since I played but I am sure of it...

I bought NWN a long time ago and just now started playing it. I have to say it's a fun game so far. The only negative aspect (IMHO) is the NPC control, it just sucks. The NPC do stupid things and run into really bad situations (like running into a mellee fight when they shouldn't). I have a pure Dwarf Fighter and took on a Cleric NPC (the female from the Blade Tavern or whatever). All she does is get in my way and get killed all the time, it IS very frustrating. But that is my only compliant so far.

"The only appeal that I can see Morrowind having is to the Diablo-generation..."

lol

You're comparing Morrowind to Diablo!? Everything about NWN screams Diablo. It even had the "original dialogue" you seem to prize. Too bad there are so few characters to interact with. NWN is a typical example of what not to do in an RPG. Try playing it more than once. "Is it time for the explosion and break in yet? Oh...here it comes..." Yay! Here comes Chapter 2! Luckily, they've "unlocked" the camera so now you can see your character from any perspective--any perspective, that is, but the character's own. You can't even swim in NWN. Even Quake is more immersive.

I have played Fallout, btw. It's a fun game--but it's not the same type of game. Sorry. And if it's mods you want, try http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind (for starters).

'Bah. You guys just don't like RPGs. The world exists and it's up to you to explore it. I don't like my RPGs in chapter-form. Read a book you lazy bastards.'

Rubbish, the problem is that the world that exists to explore is lifeless and boring. Contrary to what you imply, the game's problem is not the lack of a 'guiding' core story or chapter constraints, it is the game's hollow NPC population who have nothing but banal repetetive dialogue to offer, the yawn fest quests and the general lack of anything interesting or non-cliche outside the expansions...

The only appeal that I can see Morrowind having is to the Diablo-generation who seem to love killing time by making power-munchkin uber avatars though item whoring and exploiting flawed stat systems.

Bah, go play some real RPGs like Gothic 1&2, Fallout 1&2, PS:T, or some of the many decent NWN mods. All of these games have expansive worlds worth exploring.
This comment was edited on Nov 19, 04:20.

Yeah, the first time I threw a heavy grenade through a window and brought down half a three story house I busted a gut laughing too. Several poor German troops ended up in the basement so I tossed a few more frags down and put them out of their misery.

I also need to start experimenting with mines and such. Hell, I haven't even busted out any of the rocket or grenade launchers yet.

Snide, I know there is already a Fallout mod in the works using the S2 engine. Should be great.

I am seriously thinking of delaying my purchase of KOTOR so I don't get distracted from the great game that is Silent Storm.

As far as Hordes of the Underdark... I will pick it up later in December though I never finished the first two campaigns. I got pulled into the online worlds and spent too much time in them before reaching burn out. But it was fun while it lasted. This add-on looks to polish the gameplay even more. Not to mention the user created modules and all around gaming goodness that is sure to follow the Hordes of the Underdark release.

Kudos Tom, and to the rest of BioWare.

This comment was edited on Nov 19, 00:15.

I was playing S2 last night and tried out the mines for the first time. I had a bunch of the long narrow mines I'd defused from an earlier mission so I fitted a couple to a doorway and waited for an enemy to come out...and waited..and eventually threw a tnt pack at the door instead. Now it happened there were gas bottles in the room to one side of the doorway...I nearly hurt something laughing at the crater that was left.

K, I can understand how some people didn't enjoy NWN and the first expansion as much as some other games... but these gripes you have are all fixed in Hordes... granted, you don't get a first-person view, but the camera's been unlocked so that you can pan right down to eye level and zoom in as close as you want to your character. Check some screens:

http://media.pc.ign.com/media/569/569720/imgs_1.html

And, as someone who has played all three games (including Hordes), I have to say it's easily the best of the three.

Technical improvements don't improve piss poor game design.

sounds like old times have come back; Everyone comparing Morrowind and Never WinterNights.

Bah. You guys just don't like RPGs. The world exists and it's up to you to explore it. I don't like my RPGs in chapter-form. Read a book you lazy bastards.

NWN's original single-player campaign may not have been very inspired, but Morrowind's was an undead puppet in comparison, as far as being lively. It was Fed-Ex training VR software for a medieval world full of cardboard cut-out automata.

From my perspective, the original NWN may have been mediocre in single-player, but the whole point was to provide an extensible multiplayer framework -- and the community has gone to town over it. The persistent worlds online are amazing, and there are user-created modules of such high quality that it's worth buying this game just for those.

HotU will build on that, improving it in many ways by providing players, DMs and creators many new possibilities.

There has been no other game like this. It's like a mix of the best aspects of CRPGs with elements of MMORPGs.

Yeah, all the new stuff is backwards compatible... however, we didn't, for example, go back and add skies to the original NWN campaign or anything.
But you can pan the camera down, take the new classes, etc. in original NWN and Shadows of Undrentide.

As for the NWN Gold thing... *shrug* I'd imagine that someone will eventually release a "Platinum" pack or something that has all the packs in it.

As it stands, though, it's a good way for new players to get into NWN just in time for Hordes


This comment was edited on Nov 18, 14:57.

I think NWN sucked. The third-person view was horrible--you had to zoom in to see any detail; but, if you stayed zoomed in, you could miss something up ahead.

So you're saying that you hate any RPG except Morrowind?
In any instance, Bioware has unlocked the camera for HotU, and improved the graphics so that there are skies and the like.

I was personally bored out of my skull by Morrowind.

So Tom, are the fixes you mentioned (camera) backward compatible with the previous packs?

Any why couldn't the "Gold" version contain BOTH packs? I was gonna pick that up until I saw it only had one of them in it...

Either way, congrats on KOTOR. I'm dying to play that one!

http://www.blackrebelmotorcycleclub.com/

Hey, I'm not expecting anyone to think I'm not biased--that'd just be ridiculous... but I _really_ feel this is the best game in the series, by far. Don't have to be biased to say that

..and of course, Tom, you remain unbiased.



Anyway; i for one loved NWN. It rivals my enjoyment of FFVII back in the day on my PS1.