Moog Operator,
For a person studying "world history" I am suprised you compare the atrocities of WW2 to those of today. You really don't seem to have a very good understanding of "world history". The scale is completely differant.

Comparing Britain's Blair to Hitler means you don't understand much at all. Only a fanatical fruitcake would make those comparisons. And reading your posts Im going to say you are both of those for sure.

This comment was edited on Oct 5, 14:40.

what he said

I live in Calgary

I guess it's just the long posts, but seems well-read

Seems being the key word...

I'm not interested anymore though.

~Steve

I just wanted to say that I wouldn't argue with Moog if he/she was saying that the world is flat. I guess it's just the long posts, but seems well-read. Good job Moog, where ya from?

Invisisun

reply to Mr5by5, why do you want a thank-you so bad? I don't hear the US saying than-you to France all that often, although without their help the US could still be part of the english empire (well, only if they reduced the tea tax). When you're wondering why people aren't thanking you, think about it this way, you owe english, french, russian, canadian, aussie and others a thank-you, because they kept the germans busy while you were making up your mind -- if they hadn't fought (signed a treaty or whatever), by the time of pearl harbor, japan's ally could have been strong enough to invade north america (actually US, Mexico and Canada all probably owe russia and britain a thank-you).

(I do agree with all your other arguments)

If you read the Jewish scripture, the Jews (orthodox) believe their expulsion from the holy land (what is now israel) was due to their lack of complete servitude to God. The jewish faith was born of that event, and the crux of Judaism is that the Jewish people, through the solidarity of their religion, will always have nationality, wherever they go. As they were, according to them, expelled from the Holy land by God's will itself, return to that land is an affront to the wishes of the God that their whole faith is based on serving. Ask an Orthodox Rabbi - you will not find one of them in Israel.
If you do not believe the palestinians are being tortured, and murdered, go to Palestine. There are millions of people living at the barrel of Israeli guns, many of whom have had their homes illegally bulldozed to make room for illegal settlements (some of whom were stil in their homes at the time). The Israeli Army has forced thousands of palestinians off of the most fertile farmland in the region (west bank), burnt the palestinians' crops, and now will not allow free transport of basic human needs (which by right, we all are entitled to) such as food and water. Now they are erecting an Apartheid fence... hmm... people living in a big cage, being denied basic human rights, being shot and killed for looking at an Israeli soldier the wrong way... And now you have Ariel Sharon in charge who has said he wants to force (militarily) all palestinians out of Israel, Palestine, the West bank, and the Gaza Strip. Why? They steal Israeli jobs, and are runing the Israeli economy... The parallells are undeniable. Giving Israel an unchecked blank check to do whatever they want to another race because they suffered in the past is to ignore everything we should have learned from ww2.
I do not think that in North America we are openly presented with a good viewpoint of what is going on in Israel... If you watched your parents die at the hands of the Israeli Army for the crime of using farmland which has been your people's for a thousand years, then yourself were kept like animals at the hands of the Israeli Army, I imagine you'd be willing to try anything to liberate your people. I don't agree that senseless murgder of civilians is a reasonable form of retaliation, but what are the Palestinians left with? The US and Israel refuse to deal with their democratically elected president; Ariel Sharon refuses to stop murdering civilians while exacting pre-emptive justice... Diplomacy does not work when one side will not listen AT ALL. Hence the suicide bombs. Israel, by caging, and brutalizing the entire palestinian population has declared, although not officially, war on the Palestinians, and they are fighting back.
Uh... I know that Israel did not exist before ww2. Israel is one of the results of it, and one would think that after the brutality of the nazis which the jewish people experienced worse, and more upfront than any other people in the world, that they wouldn't be too keen on treating another race the same damn way. They have been dragging it out for 55 years, but the current situation is culminating into concentration camps, nazi-style. Are mass executions far behind? I don't think so, especially if Israel, and moreso bullshit vigilante thugs like Sharon are allowed to go unchecked for much longer. Just look at the respect his army, and the average Israeli has for the average Palestinian now.
I brought up those points to punch holes in Montys foolish claim that we must not forgive all Germans for atrocities they committed - he went on to say that people forgiving them were "do-gooders" and made him sick to his stomach. To me, it is sad that people will claim they are all upset about others forgetting the past, while the champions in their eyes (in his case Britain) have wholemindedly forgotten the lessons which should have been learned from that disasterous portion of our history. It is hypocritical to claim you are upset that people want to forgive Germans, and yet turn a blind eye to the atrocities being committed today, in the SAME FASHION of WW2 - and then go on to claim you find it disrespectful to those who lost their lives fighting for our freedom(it being the forgiving of germans). What good is our freedom when we use it as we do? Ironically, the people who seem to have learned the appropriate lessons are the people who were trounced the worst in the war - Germany and Japan, while the winners are supporting and committing the same atrocities they fought to stop (and in the case of the Jews, suffered) the world over.

This comment was edited on Oct 1, 13:27.

oh and Shh I condemn the loyalis scum also, they are no better than the IRA. I am on about the British soldiers as stated in my first post. Remember? Someone accused the British soldiers of commiting atrocities in NI and I just defended that. Yes Bloody Sunday was an over reaction but even then the IRA fired the first shot.

Moog your post is so worthless and filled with your own dreams I ain't even going to respond.

Shh your post is very good, well it would be if you actually named the atrocities the British carried out in NI. You know like this:

IRA Atrocities

1978 - 17th February "La Mon House Hotel Massacre" of Protestants at the Annual Collie Club dinner dance.

"La Mon House Hotel Massacre" 25 years on and why there must be a public inquiry

Gerry Adams was involved in the 'La Mon' house hotel bombing 13th February 2003

1981 - 21st January "The Massacre of Sir Norman Stronge, ex-M .P. and his Son"

1990 - 9th April "Four U.D.R. soldiers Massacred" with Sinn Fein/IRA bomb

1975 - 1st September "The Tullyvallen Orange Hall" massacre of men as they Worshipped in their Hall

1979 - 27th August "The Warrenpoint, Narrow water Massacre" bloody Monday

1972 - 22nd February The "Aldershot Barracks" bombing Massacre

1982 - 6th December The Ballykelly "Dropping Well Inn" Massacre

1972 - 21st July 1972 "Bloody Friday" The Massacre of Innocent civilians in Belfast as they go about their daily lives

1998 - 15th August 1998 "The Omagh Bomb Massacre" of Innocence People going about their daily lives

1993 - 23rd October "The Shankill Bomb Massacre" known as the 'Shankill bombing

1983 - 20th November "The Darkley Gospel Hall Massacre" Three Protestants murdered and seven injured

1987 - 8th November "The Enniskillen Remembrance Day Massacre"

1976 - 5th January "Kings Mill Massacre" of Ten innocent Protestant factory workers

1992 - 17th January "Teebane Cross Road Massacre" of Protestant Construction Workers by IRA/Sinn Fein

"The Slaughter at Altnaveigh" - 17th June 1922 - 6 people dead

And you think we are the ones doing the killing? Put up or shut up!

fences separating races... sounds a lot like concentration camps to me

Right, except for the whole part about torture and mass execution.

Both Britain and Israel learned nothing from ww2, so all those poor brave brits who died, DID SO IN VANE. ha ha ha !

You're a Canadian student? In what, middle school? They did so "in vain." And Israel didn't exist before WWII, so it would be hard to say what they did or didn't learn from it.

Currently, in Israel (which, according to pure Judaism is an affront to god anyway, but, that's ok ww2 was the only thing that mattered in history, right?)

I'd be interested in hearing your explanation of that one.

You make some worthwhile points, but your viewpoint is just as extreme as those you attack. What Israel does are "executions" to you and "justice" to someone else. Maybe you'd sympathize if you had suicide bombers blowing themselves up in cafes and shopping malls, murdering civilians in your hometown.

~Steve

uh... liberated? Women cannot walk the streets in any Iraq city without fear of rape, or murder, children swim in pools of raw sewage (americans and britains dont have the water running yet; saddam took 3 days after gulf war 1), there is no access to medicine, british and american troops committing raids on innocent civilians, and shooting them in the process... liberated... right. Ask any Iraqi, who would they rather have in despotic control of the country: USA and Britain, or Saddam, and the answer's the latter.
Islamic, eh? I am actually a Canadian student studying world history, and I have a fair knowledge of what is going on. I can compare Britain and Blair to Nazis easily; they operate on the same level. I have not once made little of what Hitler and Nazi Germany did to Europe and Jewish people, but it is a fact that both Hitler and Blair attempted to, with varying degrees of success, convince the populace in general that attacking soveriegn nations without provocation is the right thing to do. Scapegoating (jews in hitlers case) was another widely employed strategy... you have called me an Islamic Militant; obviously contemporary scapegoating has worked on you. Regardless of your blindness to it, Britain has and is committed and committing atrocites the world over. There is no denying it. Do you have any clue how many people have died in the last decade due to stauchly British backed American influence? 1.5 million CHILDREN is the number from UNICEF. Over 8000 Iraqi civilians have died in the current war... this doesn't phase you in the least?

VIVA ISRAEL? How stupid are you? Currently, in Israel (which, according to pure Judaism is an affront to god anyway, but, that's ok ww2 was the only thing that mattered in history, right?) we have Ariel Sharon who supports and carries out executions without sentence or even trial, and he is building an apartheid fence... Remember how lovely things were for black people in South Africa? ... fences separating races... sounds a lot like concentration camps to me; and with Israel stealing resources from Palestine, they are NO BETTER THAN HITLER. Both Britain and Israel learned nothing from ww2, so all those poor brave brits who died, DID SO IN VANE. ha ha ha !

BUT OH NO!!!!! THE HOLOCAUST MEANS THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN ALL SIN FOREVER MORE!

And guess what british boy? America came to your rescue after two years of sitting back and laughing at you, the russians, and the french (at the time two superpowers) getting slaughtered. Their entrance into world war 2 was strategically timed so after the war, all european superpowers would be at a greatly reduced strength. It worked, sadly enough, and the current state of affairs (USA tells Britain what to do and when, ie Iraq) reflects this fact clearly.

get a clue; were it not for your contradicting statements about every point you've tried to argue, i'd have almost had respect for your "Don't forget the past" sentiment. Hypocrisy does not impress, though.

Monty, you are so miserably uninformed on the topic of northern ireland, I really don't think you should continue to post on it. The IRA committed atrocities. Yes. The world knows that. I know that, you know that. I can also give you a list of attrocities committed by loyalist paramilitaries (including killing innocent people in the south), many of which were aided by British security services.

Your arguements fall over each other effectively showing you up to be little more than a blinded nationalist. Every time someone punches a hole in your arguement, you either fall back on some utter exageration (sic) or fail to answer the points levelled at you. Go and read something other than the Telegraph, it'll do you a world of good.

"Ok show me the list of atrocities we commit in NI then? as I can show you a huge list of IRA ones."

What do you mean by "we"? Who's "we"?

I didnt have time to read the 70+ post about which coutnry is guilty and what not but il give my 2 cents.

I think its wrong to say that every Wechermat soldier was an ideological nazi and that they should all be shot. I read countless numbers of WW2 memoirs and history books and im pretty confident the majority of the Germans soldiers fought so the alies so hard for three reasons:

1.) The Germans hated the Russians. The German soldiers ow pissed off the russians are and they vowed never to let them into Germany.
2.)If the german soldiers tried to rebel, they get a shot in the head from the Gestapo
3.)There was a strong feeling of comeradeship among german soldiers. This was the strength of the Wechermet that let them endure shitslike Stalingrad, Kursk, North Africa, and the Ardennes.

Now the S.S are a different matter. They are truly idelogical nazi bastards who should all be shot. They were the ones responsible for the civlian massacres.

While we're bringing up military history, at least the Russians seem to have sort of forgiven the U.S. for occupying Russia for a couple years after World War I ended (also, the story of the Czech Legion's journey across Civil War-ridden Russia is quite a story for anyone interested in checking it out in more detail than the links below provide)

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/muchado.htm

http://www.militaria.com/8th/WW1/siberia.html

And here's to the brave Canadians who arrived at D-Day a couple years early (Operation Jubilee was actually a very daring attempt to ascertain the viability of an eventual fullscale landing in France):

http://www.rpi.edu/~fiscap/history_files/dieppe.htm

Yes America came to our rescue after 2 years of cowarding out, thank God for Pearl Harbour or the world would be in a sorry state now.

Sorry Mr kung fu but I don't recall hearing about British Soldiers locking women and children in a church and then torching it, burning them alive? Or pahaps you are just clueless.

And Brick:

But the "other side" all have halos? If you really believe that then I think you should cut back on the Kool-Aid... Twat!

Ok show me the list of atrocities we commit in NI then? as I can show you a huge list of IRA ones.

And Moog:
you just sound like a bitter Islamic militant that refuses to accept the truth. How the hell you can compare Britain and Blait to Hitler and Nazi Germany is beyond me. We have liberated the people of Iraq from a brutal dipstick and you talk like we massacred everyone on the streets. It's true you all get brainwashed in them Mosques.

VIVA ISRAEL!!!!

You sound just like another do-gooding, ungrateful prick that needs to wake up and realise just how damn close your country came to total defeat.

For the record I'm American. While I do not believe we could have defeated Germany without the assistance of the Soviet Union the general consensus seems to be that the Americans came to the Brits rescue, not the other way around.

My overall point is that while Hitler and Company were all around evil guys that deserved the fate they got, the average German Soldier (and citizen for that matter) was no more evil than you average American/British/French/Russian Soldier. There is no moral high ground in war. Everyone is equally dirty, some just show it more heinous ways than others.

How about Trang Bang, or Thanh Phong, scottish? My Lai and other massacres of this nature were not isolated events but more properly part of "The Phoenix Program".

The Pheonix Program was the systematic assasination of high ranking PAVN (North Vietnamese Army) Officers within South Vietnam. I'm not sure how that ties in with My Lai. As to Trang Bang I'm not entirely sure why you mention that either as it was a ARVN/VNAF operation, not American. To be perfectly honest I'm not overly familiar with Thanh Phong.

This comment was edited on Sep 30, 18:33.

Since no one answered my question (32 or 64, I've heard both) regarding the amount of players mp will support then I'm goin' to weigh on on the other shit.

"Life is cheap in Somalia, so nobody really gives a fuck and why should we? they wouldnt hesitate to shoot you for the most minor of things.
a country thousands of years old and its still in the dark ages, what does that say about the people? dumb springs to my mind."

This is the kind of thinking that put Hitler in business. You've chosen a good role model. One life is more valuable than the other because of... race? nationality? religion?

"Yea, Slaughterhouse Five is based on the bombing of Dresden. Crazy stuff."

The Dresden raid (it's horrific numbers: 135,000 killed compared to Hiroshima's estimate of 75,000 to 100,000 -- however the radiation effects are being felt to this day) was kept quiet until the mid-sixties when, with the help of Slaughter House Five (Vonneguet was actually a POW in Dresden at the time of the raid), it became general knowledge, much to the chagrin of the good guys. More significant is the fact that Dresden was not considered militarily important. You can try to justify it and rationalize it all you want but when you start taking cues from the bad guys somethings wrong.

"It's the Irish that are throwing the nail bombs at kids on their way to school and blowing up war vets as they attend memorial services."

But the "other side" all have halos? If you really believe that then I think you should cut back on the Kool-Aid... Twat!

War is Hell! It said so at the end of every Sgt. Rock I read.

This comment was edited on Sep 30, 17:40.

edit- double post.
This comment was edited on Sep 30, 17:24.