DOOM 3 & DX9

[Sep 17, 2003, 7:08 pm ET] - Share - Viewing Comments

With all the discussion lately about how Half-Life 2 will run on ATI hardware compared with NVIDIA accelerators, BonusWeb.cz shot off an email to id Software's John Carmack to ask how DOOM 3 and other games are likely to be impacted by the difference between the two graphics platforms running DirectX 9. Here's how he responded:

Unfortunately, it will probably be representative of most DX9 games. Doom has a custom back end that uses the lower precisions on the GF-FX, but when you run it with standard fragment programs just like ATI, it is a lot slower. The precision doesn't really matter to Doom, but that won't be a reasonable option in future games designed around DX9 level hardware as a minimum spec.

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67.

Re: the truth... is out there....

Sep 18, 2003, 00:10

Waldo555

'I remember reading from Carmack or yadda yadda yadda that either the 5900 or the 9800 is the cards to own to run the new games. WTF did this change? At what point in the developer updates did nVidia just all of a sudden blow so hard in their oppinion?' Nothing has really changed. Hell, Carmack in his .plan from ages ago clearly indicated that FX cards performed full precision ARB2 rendering/shaders at half the speed of ATi solutions. Part of the problem is people are assuming that the D3 engine is indicative of future performance with the DX9 level feature-set. This is not the case. The fact is that D3 isn't shader dependent like HL2 with DX9. Rather it is dependent on incredible bandwidth, multitexturing fill-rate, fast stencil and fixed function dot-3 shading - things that NV3x is actually very good at. (Check out Beyond3D forums for more good info on this). Furthermore, the D3 performance numbers are even more misleading for DX9 because they are in Open GL (Nvidia's strength) and Carmack has specifically coded the game with a custom NV3x path and FP16 shaders so that the register problem is not telling... If you're look for someone to blame though you might want to start looking at review sites who use 3dmark2k3, Gunmental et al (basically PS 1.4 benchmarks) like they are really DX9 PS 2.0 benchmarks and giving the NV3x high marks for scoring 300 as opposed to 270 FPS in Q3 without even looking at image quality comparisons in driver revisions. So many supposedly decent hardware sites were implicated in this, and rather than fess up to their erroneous conclusions they tried to insinuate that Valve and ATi had some conspiracy going on - it was pathetic. This comment was edited on Sep 18, 00:27.

		Date	Subject	Author
	1.	Sep 17, 19:19	Target Sighted! Fire!!!	Rigs
	4.	Sep 17, 19:24	Re: Target Sighted! Fire!!!	PiG
	7.	Sep 17, 19:28	Re: Target Sighted! Fire!!!	Rigs
	9.	Sep 17, 19:30	re: Target Sighted! Fire!!!	Nexus
	12.	Sep 17, 19:36	Re: Target Sighted! Fire!!!	Brick
	23.	Sep 17, 20:03	Re: Target Sighted! Fire!!!	Rigs
	2.	Sep 17, 19:22	No subject	Xero
	3.	Sep 17, 19:22	No subject	ReDeeMeR
	5.	Sep 17, 19:24	Re: No subject	Enahs
	6.	Sep 17, 19:28	Re: No subject	quazz
	16.	Sep 17, 19:39	No subject	ReverendTed
	20.	Sep 17, 19:53	Re: No subject	kyleb
	21.	Sep 17, 19:56	Re: No subject	ReDeeMeR
	24.	Sep 17, 20:03	Re: No subject	Tony!!!
	55.	Sep 17, 22:40	Re: No subject	Maskirovka
	56.	Sep 17, 22:48	Re: No subject	Hellbinder
	60.	Sep 17, 23:05	Re: No subject	HBringer
	81.	Sep 18, 05:37	Re: No subject	Belly Flop
	8.	Sep 17, 19:29	Re: No Subject	Bunko
	10.	Sep 17, 19:33	No subject	D4rkKnight
	13.	Sep 17, 19:37	Re: No subject	Enahs
	14.	Sep 17, 19:38	Re: No subject	PoopieMoopie
	15.	Sep 17, 19:38	Re: No subject	Brick
	11.	Sep 17, 19:35	who cares at this point?	PoopieMoopie
	18.	Sep 17, 19:49	Re: who cares at this point?	fallguy
	17.	Sep 17, 19:48	Re: wakey wakey!	red_420
	19.	Sep 17, 19:53	Re: wakey wakey!	Maskirovka
	22.	Sep 17, 20:00	Re: wakey wakey!	eunichron
	25.	Sep 17, 20:04	Re: wakey wakey!	beaves
	40.	Sep 17, 21:50	Re: wakey wakey!	Ryan
	27.	Sep 17, 20:31	Re: wakey wakey!	kyleb
	32.	Sep 17, 21:13	Re: wakey wakey!	fallguy
	33.	Sep 17, 21:25	Re: wakey wakey!	eunichron
	38.	Sep 17, 21:44	Re: wakey wakey!	mbmonk
	26.	Sep 17, 20:09	No subject	Cynic9
	30.	Sep 17, 20:51	26 WRONG	schraube
	31.	Sep 17, 21:03	Re: 26 WRONG	TangledThorns
	62.	Sep 17, 23:38	Re: 26 WRONG	Marksman
	64.	Sep 17, 23:52	Re: 26 WRONG	OneNightStand
	96.	Sep 18, 14:55	Re: 26 WRONG	Fang
	83.	Sep 18, 06:31	Re: 26 WRONG	vacs
	36.	Sep 17, 21:42	Re: 26 WRONG	Cynic9
	39.	Sep 17, 21:45	Re: 26 WRONG	mag
	45.	Sep 17, 21:57	Re: 26 WRONG	Ryan
	63.	Sep 17, 23:42	Re: 26 WRONG	Marksman
	28.	Sep 17, 20:32	mondovoodootunabonecurse	speedbacon
	29.	Sep 17, 20:36	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	nomar
	35.	Sep 17, 21:35	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	Pineapple Ferguson
	37.	Sep 17, 21:43	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	mag
	41.	Sep 17, 21:51	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	Pineapple Ferguson
	47.	Sep 17, 21:59	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	mag
	48.	Sep 17, 22:02	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	Enahs
	42.	Sep 17, 21:52	???	TimothyB
	44.	Sep 17, 21:56	Re: ???	Enahs
	50.	Sep 17, 22:07	Re: ???	TimothyB
	46.	Sep 17, 21:58	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	richcz3
	109.	Sep 19, 13:22	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	CyberNutz
	110.	Sep 19, 15:23	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	MindTrigger
	111.	Sep 20, 06:04	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	mbmonk
	115.	Sep 22, 15:34	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	Guano
	116.	Sep 22, 17:59	Re: mondovoodootunabonecurse	MindTrigger
	34.	Sep 17, 21:32	Blah blah blah...	Ray Marden
	43.	Sep 17, 21:56	ARGUE!	Bunko
	49.	Sep 17, 22:04	nVidia needs to be honest	OCed_5150
	51.	Sep 17, 22:25	No subject	OneNightStand
	61.	Sep 17, 23:09	the truth... is out there....	Shataan
	65.	Sep 18, 00:00	Re: the truth... is out there....	mbmonk
	66.	Sep 18, 00:06	Re: the truth... is out there....	KaRRiLLioN
>>	67.	Sep 18, 00:10	Re: the truth... is out there....	Waldo555
	79.	Sep 18, 04:39	Re: the truth... is out there....	banksie
	80.	Sep 18, 05:31	Re: the truth... is out there....	Waldo555
	101.	Sep 18, 17:09	Re: the truth... is out there....	banksie
	84.	Sep 18, 06:40	Re: the truth... is out there....	Stinky_Toe
	85.	Sep 18, 08:38	Re: the truth... is out there....	Waldo555
	86.	Sep 18, 09:05	Re: the truth... is out there....	Waachi
	87.	Sep 18, 09:12	Re: the truth... is out there....	nin
	88.	Sep 18, 09:21	Re: the truth... is out there....	Waldo555
	90.	Sep 18, 09:38	Re: the truth... is out there....	Belly Flop
	94.	Sep 18, 13:58	Re: the truth... is out there....	m00t
	52.	Sep 17, 22:27	HL2 & D3: hard to compare	oliversl
	53.	Sep 17, 22:31	Re: HL2 & D3: hard to compare	ReDeeMeR
	54.	Sep 17, 22:32	Re: HL2 & D3: hard to compare	Enahs
	82.	Sep 18, 06:27	Re: HL2 & D3: hard to compare	vacs
	57.	Sep 17, 22:52	Re: ADOLESCENT CONSOLES	Hellbinder
	59.	Sep 17, 22:59	Re: ADOLESCENT CONSOLES	OneNightStand
	58.	Sep 17, 22:57	No subject	OneNightStand
	68.	Sep 18, 00:14	PCI Express	OneNightStand
	69.	Sep 18, 00:16	The vidcard market	CrowFeather
	70.	Sep 18, 00:27	Re: The vidcard market	Creston
	97.	Sep 18, 15:31	Re: The vidcard market	CrowFeather
	71.	Sep 18, 02:16	No subject	Acleacius
	72.	Sep 18, 03:13	The Impact Effect	Learned Hand
	73.	Sep 18, 03:33	Re: The Impact Effect	TimothyB
	75.	Sep 18, 03:37	Re: The Impact Effect	Wilf
	76.	Sep 18, 04:06	Re: The Impact Effect	Waldo555
	78.	Sep 18, 04:25	Re: The Impact Effect	Anvil
	74.	Sep 18, 03:37	Re: The Impact Effect	HBringer
	77.	Sep 18, 04:07	Re: The Impact Effect	mbmonk
	89.	Sep 18, 09:34	No subject	_Pablo
	91.	Sep 18, 10:25	Phew	Creston
	92.	Sep 18, 10:55	Re: Phew	ReDeeMeR
	93.	Sep 18, 13:07	Hrm ...	whatever
	95.	Sep 18, 14:00	Re: Hrm ...	kanniballl
	98.	Sep 18, 15:42	Some Thoughts	Liquid
	99.	Sep 18, 16:47	Re: Some Thoughts	TimothyB
	106.	Sep 18, 21:41	Re: Some Thoughts	Liquid
	107.	Sep 18, 21:56	Great article related to DX9 ATI vs Nvid	mbmonk
	108.	Sep 18, 22:04	Re: Some Thoughts	TimothyB
	100.	Sep 18, 17:05	No subject	Hellbinder
	102.	Sep 18, 17:27	"Standards"	HBringer
	103.	Sep 18, 17:58	Re: Hardware	Zoner
	104.	Sep 18, 19:06	Re: Hardware	HBringer
	105.	Sep 18, 21:08	Re: Hardware	Zoner
	112.	Sep 20, 07:12	Re: SOUR GRAPES	vajbern
	113.	Sep 21, 08:27	Re: SOUR GRAPES	zamfear
	114.	Sep 21, 18:14	Re: SOUR GRAPES	vajbern
	117.	Sep 23, 17:04	Will mine work?	Mopap
	118.	Oct 22, 21:11	RE: good thread	4Eyez