On Half-Life 2 Performance

Valve's Gabe Newell gave a presentation at ATI's Shader Days event in Seattle where he discussed Half-Life 2 performance, Direct X 9, and benchmarks, among other things. Included are some Half-Life 2 benchmarks and some details about the DirectX 9 performance improvements they've achieved. Reports on the proceedings can be found on AnandTech, Beyond3D, Gamers Depot, GameSpot, and The Tech Report. There's also a Gabe Newell Interview on Gamers Depot discussing all this, including why DirectX and not OpenGL.
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73.
 
No subject
Sep 17, 2003, 18:15
73.
No subject Sep 17, 2003, 18:15
Sep 17, 2003, 18:15
 
What a lot of Guano.

We video card fanatics don't care about which company sells what. We want the best card at the time. One day that might be 3dfx, the next day creative, perhaps nvidia.

Today its ATI. Who cares what company. Its the card.
DON'T LIKE MY COMMENTS?!? THEN STOP RELEASING GARBAGE.
Avatar 8515
72.
 
Performance
Sep 15, 2003, 17:38
72.
Performance Sep 15, 2003, 17:38
Sep 15, 2003, 17:38
 
It seems this is realy about ATI and Nvida and everyones EGO. I used ATI cards for years before Nvida ever came on the seen and my vast experience with ATI cards has tought me to never buy one again. AS an IT tech for that whole period of time I only experienced trouble with drivers and OS compatability. I hear things have changed with ATI and they have finaly made some improvements in this area. My experience with Nvida has been nothing but smooth and I feel I have gotten every dollars worth. I cant bring myself to gamble with any more of my time or money with a company that has had such a bad track record with me like ATI...

71.
 
Re: A dilemma...
Sep 12, 2003, 18:30
71.
Re: A dilemma... Sep 12, 2003, 18:30
Sep 12, 2003, 18:30
 
Actually, this whole statement was "horseshit". If you knew anything about driver programming, which I'm sure you don't, you would know that a piece of hardware is only as good as its driver; a poorly implemented driver can make even the best hardware run horribly (and no, I'm not calling the nvidia cards "the best hardware"). Despite minor driver changes released recently, those have still fallen under the Detonator 40 series. The Detonator 50 series, according to nvidia, will be a complete rearchitecture of the drivers, with DX9 functionality in mind. That being said, there is a lot of room for improvement in driver optimizations still, so I won't be giving up on nvidia until after the Det 50s are released.

I'm completely aware of the difference a driver makes. But all the driver optimizations in the world won't fix flawed hardware. After Nvidia's recent driver update history, where they've claimed "40% speed improvements" that in actuality result from severely cutting image quality, I have to really question how the Det50's are going to fix the shader problem, and at what expense. Maybe I'm wrong, but the GF5 has been out a while now, and perhaps they've already hit the wall on performance. I'm sure the truth will be known soon...

70.
 
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts?
Sep 12, 2003, 14:47
70.
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts? Sep 12, 2003, 14:47
Sep 12, 2003, 14:47
 
In Doom3's case, DirectX was chosen because MS is paying them a ton to be able to put it on the XBox. The choice for id is clear.

Did I miss something? You're the second person in this thread to say Doom III will be using DirectX instead of OpenGL. This is completely inaccurate AFAIK. Where did you hear this??

I think someone's hitting the crack pipe.

Just because Microsoft want Doom 3 on the XBOX doesn't mean they'll use Direct X for it. Last I heard Windows ran OpenGL perfectly happily, so I'm sure whatever crazy operating system is running the XBOX under the hood will be able to handle OpenGL.

69.
 
Hmmm....
Sep 12, 2003, 12:24
69.
Hmmm.... Sep 12, 2003, 12:24
Sep 12, 2003, 12:24
 
Call me a Nvidiot if you wish, but, we users, will only have valid opinions about how shitty or great HL2 runs on our radeons and geforces after the game has been released and installed on our pc's.
I hate PR bullshit as much as anybody else, but what's with all this hate towards nvidia's cards lately? I'm saying that because neither I or any of my countless friends ever complained about the performance, stability or drivers of these cards? And don't tell me it's because of HL2 performnce, because as I stated above, it's too early to talk about it.

68.
 
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts?
Sep 12, 2003, 01:04
68.
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts? Sep 12, 2003, 01:04
Sep 12, 2003, 01:04
 
In Doom3's case, DirectX was chosen because MS is paying them a ton to be able to put it on the XBox. The choice for id is clear.

Did I miss something? You're the second person in this thread to say Doom III will be using DirectX instead of OpenGL. This is completely inaccurate AFAIK. Where did you hear this??

67.
 
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts?
Sep 12, 2003, 00:55
67.
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts? Sep 12, 2003, 00:55
Sep 12, 2003, 00:55
 
#54:
Have you ever tried to actually sit down and pick out DirectX's (more specically Direct3D since each part of DirectX is something entirely different) features and OpenGL's? I urge you to do it, because the result is really remarkable. THEY'RE THE SAME (the only small differnce is actually that DX uses index buffers and OGL uses array lists which are just different data structures to do that same thing). When you describe DX8 being similiar to OpenGL and DX9 somehow kicking the hell out of OGL is completely false. All DX9 calls are the same as DX8 with the exception of shaders. OGL has nVidis's Cg language for shaders and its extremely easy (for me anyway) to use. DX9 has HLSL which is just a copy of Cg without crossplatform capabilities.

All it really boils down to is whether you choose crossplatorm ability over Microsoft endorsement. In Doom3's case, DirectX was chosen because MS is paying them a ton to be able to put it on the XBox. The choice for id is clear.

66.
 
Re: Tron 2
Sep 11, 2003, 19:20
66.
Re: Tron 2 Sep 11, 2003, 19:20
Sep 11, 2003, 19:20
 
FSAA is King on Nvidia? Cool. By the way, what colour is the sky on your planet? Seriously?...

65.
 
Re: What the H?!
Sep 11, 2003, 18:18
65.
Re: What the H?! Sep 11, 2003, 18:18
Sep 11, 2003, 18:18
 
Unfotrunately, you guys haven't got any award winning games under your belt to help your image.

No, I haven't got any award winning games under my belt, but I sure earned my diploma and that Dr. in front of my name, while you just earned that zits on your teenage face


64.
 
Re: No subject
Sep 11, 2003, 17:58
64.
Re: No subject Sep 11, 2003, 17:58
Sep 11, 2003, 17:58
 
To the people whom think they will be ok with this card and Doom 3, NOT its DirectX9 as well.

Um... no. Doom 3 uses DirectInput for it's mouse/keyboard/joystick/gamepad input, but the graphics are all done with OpenGL, sound and network are all custom code...

63.
 
Tron 2
Sep 11, 2003, 17:38
63.
Tron 2 Sep 11, 2003, 17:38
Sep 11, 2003, 17:38
 
I must admitt after installing the Radeon card Tron 2 does not glow like the Nvidia card, Afterall they do have a huge Nvidia loge upon startup to Tron but Wow what a difference.
Im kinda on the fence with this hole Nvidia/Radeon thing but I will tell you after having tried both in a weeks time FSAA is KING on Nvidia, Radeon FSAA cant compare with GF5900
Im starting to have second thoughts agian but i'll probley keep the Radeon card , Cause im a HalfLife addict. But Man did that GF5900 just Kill Radeon in TRON 2 sheesh.

62.
 
No subject
Sep 11, 2003, 17:28
62.
No subject Sep 11, 2003, 17:28
Sep 11, 2003, 17:28
 
I knew somthing was up NVidia has been dumping thier cards for the last 3 weeks> Price drop of $100 in a week.
To the people whom think they will be ok with this card and Doom 3, NOT its DirectX9 as well.

A truck is not a speech.A horn is not a voice.Occupation is not a protest.A blockade is not freedom,it blocks the liberty of all.
A demand to overthrow a government is not a dialogue.Expression of hate is not a difference of opinion.A lie is not the truth
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61.
 
Re: No subject
Sep 11, 2003, 17:10
61.
Re: No subject Sep 11, 2003, 17:10
Sep 11, 2003, 17:10
 
Um, what proof do you have that valve is getting paid by ATi?
There was a rumor on The Inquirer about a week ago.

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22
Who knows but that, on the lower frequencies, I speak for you?
http://citizenb.com/ - Now at v1.1
60.
 
Re: No subject
Sep 11, 2003, 16:47
60.
Re: No subject Sep 11, 2003, 16:47
Sep 11, 2003, 16:47
 
I still say its partially intentonal, I just refuse to believe a company (ValvE) who is being paied money by a graphics card vendor (ATI) would be honest in this situation.

Um, what proof do you have that valve is getting paid by ATi? None. Point is, when the HL2 benchmark comes out the 30th of September no one will be able to refute what has already been shown.

This comment was edited on Sep 11, 16:49.
59.
 
No subject
Sep 11, 2003, 16:36
59.
No subject Sep 11, 2003, 16:36
Sep 11, 2003, 16:36
 
I still say its partially intentonal, I just refuse to believe a company (ValvE) who is being paied money by a graphics card vendor (ATI) would be honest in this situation.

Granted Nvidia is in a horiable slump, however, thier choice to go with Doom3 and thier lack of a decent product for a year. Along with losing the deal for the next generation X-Box. It seems they are a submarine with a screen door, sunroof, and made out of lead.

How anyone can say the says back when 3dfx were the only game in town things were better, I do not know. You were paying 500 bucks for cards worth 300 bucks, at least now the price/worth of the cards are much closer. Did you know when a retailer sells computer hardware and full computers its about 5% of thier profit. These cards are expensive to make, and since there has been good competition the price you pay has been closer to the price it costs to make them. Closer than at anytime prior to now in fact. We lose Nvidia and you can bet your ass the next gen ATI cards will be worth less than your going to pay for them, its just smart business sense.

When the game, with the most rabid and addicted and insane fans comes out with a sequal. That has been turned into the next coming, the cd version. Weather this was done by fans or press is unimportant, it HAS been hyped. Now this overly hyped and built up game will apparently run like shit on toast on the Nvidia cards, unless you bump them down to dx8.1 renderers. That my friends is a deathblow to a videocard company, Nvida will assuredally pull out some bullshit but this is the SECOND time ValvE has defamed a Nvidia card for being less than technically competent.

So for all you people with a 2nd grade reading comprehension, Nvidia has screwed the pooch and you can expect them to be going under to be replaced with... probably matrox. The Parheliea could have been a good card, i'm sure they have been working on design refinement just incase this happend.

This sure is a muddy pool...

"I'm too much of a narcisist to really hate stupid people."
58.
 
Thread and off-topic Comment
Sep 11, 2003, 15:16
58.
Thread and off-topic Comment Sep 11, 2003, 15:16
Sep 11, 2003, 15:16
 
I can always count on a few laughs regarding any HL2 thread here on BN...But folks, lets try and keep the personal attacks outta here. When you guys post pics of yourselves for us to ridicule then you can comment on someone else. Also, its pretty immature and in poor taste (imagine that on a BN thread!) to cut someone down who is working their ASS off trying to make a game for YOU. That being said, I will admit that Gabe has looked better. I can only imagine that his schedule, lack of sleep, bad fast food and caffeine intake are taking a heavy toll.

Secondly, lets not forget that Video card competition is a GOOD THING for us. Without NVidia nipping at Radeon's heels (or vice versa) we wouldn't have the kind of one-upsmanship that gives us consumers the best card out there. Guaranteed, theres another player out there ready to give both of these companies a run for their money. I say bring it on and let the best card win...As for this whole NV optimization flap, guaran-damn-tee you that NVidia will take care of this to most people's liking. It might not be until a bit later than the HL2 release date but they know who pays the bills.

Sling

57.
 
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts?
Sep 11, 2003, 14:49
57.
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts? Sep 11, 2003, 14:49
Sep 11, 2003, 14:49
 
Heh, well, prepare, soon they'll start calling you a troll too then.

56.
 
9800 pro
Sep 11, 2003, 14:47
56.
9800 pro Sep 11, 2003, 14:47
Sep 11, 2003, 14:47
 
Just took back the GF5900FX to store cause i just bought it last week, All based on Gabe Newells statement too.
I was somewhat happy with the performance gains over my GF3 card and it came with a pretty blue neon light but hogged up 2 slots.
Now I have installed the 9800 pro and much to my suprise im converted, I mean most of the games out now dont use DX9 fully anyways so GFFX5900 was kicking some serious butt.
But then I read the news, I'l take HL2 over Doom 3 any day of the week cause HL2 will have all the mods all Doom3 has is bang bang youre dead. not to say FPS arent good they are but HL2 is more than that so much more its like a movie.
So i do belive Gabe when he said Nvidia is taking shortcuts
why would he piss off half his customer base with a statement like that if it wernt true?
Damn I'll miss that GF5900 even tough i only had it a week heh, it was pretty.{BIG}

55.
 
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts?
Sep 11, 2003, 14:45
55.
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts? Sep 11, 2003, 14:45
Sep 11, 2003, 14:45
 
#54, I said the exact same thing yesterday.

http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=44113&id=113101&boardid=1&view=threads

It's true though, DX9 is great to work with. I've only found two bugs in it, and those were bugs that made things more difficult for me as a developer, nothing that would affect an end user.

54.
 
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts?
Sep 11, 2003, 13:34
54.
Re: Direct X 9.0 .. are they nuts? Sep 11, 2003, 13:34
Sep 11, 2003, 13:34
 
#29, to be honest, OpenGL was better than DirectX 7. When DirectX 8 came around, they were pretty similar, although DX8 had worse documentation, and the code was just ickier. DirectX 9 though, kicks the hell out of OpenGL. OpenGL anymore is just a bunch of hardware-specific extentions, which makes writing code for it a nightmare. Even Carmack himself has said that DirectX 9 is more user-friendly to use that OpenGL, and that the reason that he (Carmack) uses OpenGL is for cross-platform compatibility. If DirectX 9 was cross-platform, you can bet he'd be using that instead.

When OpenGL 2.0 comes around, we'll see how that changes things, but I'm not holding my breath on it. It will certainly be an improvement over OpenGL 1, but I have a feeling it will be comparable to Direct X 9 in terms of features and ease of use (maybe an end to hardware-specific extentions, fingers crossed), but Microsoft will beat it soundly in the next version of their DirectX stuff.

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