Command a squad in game is complex because it's a complex task, I guess.

And if a dev can figure out a way to command a squad in a simple way they have innovated. They have made the game simpler and at the same time sparked innovation, that is what I am trying to say here.

7.62, I'd agree with you strongly on this. Take for instance Raven Shield. It had an innovative scrolly menu command system, that was ultimately too time consuming to use.

Command a squad in game is complex because it's a complex task, I guess.

Doom 3 won't be the next Unreal 2. Quake 4 will be the next Unreal 2.

Companies seem to like licensing out their franchises. It hurt Unreal (that game would have probably bored us regardless). It hurt Wolfenstein (great multiplayer, awful singleplayer), and I imagine it will hurt Quake.


If Quake 4 is 4 times better than SoF2 it will still be terrible.

I don't know what people mean with id dumbing it down or simplifying.

Did anyone see a use key in Quake? Q2? Q3? They left it behind after Doom, and the Q series worked fine without it, for what it was.

Why would Idsoftware be scared of Half-Life II? The only thing Half-Life II has going for it is Counter-Strike II

What HL2 has going for it is an engine that was designed so as to be useful to people who make games, whereas all D3 has going for it is a new renderer. An impressive one, certainly, but that's about all it's offering. The gamey stuff that comes built-in with HL2 is what people who license D3 will spend several months of their precious development time -- which few people really have to spare -- trying to approximate, because HL2 will have raised that bar and people will expect that level of Cool Stuff(tm).

I'm surprised to see such a movement emerge. I'm glad too, sometimes playing a game becomes such a hassle with different weapon modes, night goggles and such, and I'm just too distracted by all that, to immerse myself into the scenario that I really am a runaway spy sneaking around a russian base.
Where's the suspense when I know there are guards around the corner, and I have to find the key to switch to night vision mode so I'll be able to see them.

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» http://www.worldwar3.cjb.net « Updated December 25th
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for going a tad overboard, BIS did a pretty good job of it inspite of the control scheme. And FP has a whole lot more scope and depth to it than a simple corridor/hallcrawler shooter. Someone who knows how to setup the controls THEIR way usually can find and did find a comfy medium. I played thru the campaignes 2wice no problemo.

About simplifying key commands? There is simplifying, and then there is dumbing down. And the sad trend in PC gaming these days is towards dumbing things down. Its funny tho, the devs who have made it and could care less about a features, are the ones who tend to take away usually I think because it cuts corners and time for them=laziness in otherwards. It is the new developers who are hungry, and want to give the player base every thing they can to allow the players to play the game their way. These dudes get my vote.

Why would Idsoftware be scared of Half-Life II? We all know that the Doom III engine is going to be pretty widespread in the upcoming years compaired to the half-life II. Plus any hardware company that can run Doom III will make the most money by the hardcore gamer crown who have money to burn. The only thing Half-Life II has going for it is Counter-Strike II. That's the only thing that's making me buy Half-Life II. From watching those Half-Life II vidoes I am not that impressed with it when I saw it on shaky cam. Half-Life II can never topple a big company like Idsoftware with programmers like Carmack. His work speaks for itself over the years and many many games based of idsoftware engines.

"For example take Operation Flashpoint..."

no kidding, i bought the game but never even really bothered to play it as resting the controls for my left handedness was such a pain in the ass.

Message to 7.62WorldOrder

The people who play id games include hardcore gamers, but are largely composed of those who buy branded titles. Look at the sales figures id out sells other suppliers not by sales to hardcore gamers. This is good for gaming.

as for the oft-rumored retirement the first place i heard the rumour was in the article....

I don't think John is worried about HL2. Half Life is going to be a good game. No worries mate. Doom 3 will also be another good game to play. Id has never released a stinker. I wonder how close to Pixar quality Johns next cutting edge engine will be. Should be over the top.

Some other games to note, since you seem to think there is only one game in development worth playing, would be Dues ex 2 and Thief 3. Far Cry and Stalker show some potential, but as these are original games they have yet to prove thier merit. We will have to wait and see.

-Tony!!!;)

Johnny C should just quit while hes ahead. Doom 3 is just going to be another Unreal 2, a FPS with flashy graphics and no substance. HL2 is the game we know Id and all other FPS developers are worried about. Maybe Id shouldn't of announced Doom 3 so soon, its been more than 2 years already! Yeesh!

Well... the game does take place on a super advanced research station on mars... it's not totally unreasonable that they have automatic doors. Last i checked... how well a one man army would able to take on an alien horde in the event of opening the gates of hell WASN'T one of the larger factors in designing research/military bases. Although maybe it should be.

We'll have to wait and see, but through level design, monster placement, and making sure the fire/use option on one key is coded well, I would imagine it will work just fine.

I'm used to playing shooters with a use key. Take NOLF2 for example. The use key is the right mouse button, and text highlights things that can be used (e.g. "Flip Switch" or "Open Box"). And when you aren't pointing at something you can use, right mouse button reloads your weapon. Sure I reloaded a few times when I didn't intend to, but it worked pretty well.

Now to negate that last line -

Can you imagine what would happen to the gaming industry if he did retire? So much of the money is made off technology entirely influenced by him, if not directly created by him.

Who would be filling those enormous computer genius shoes? Who would be building the engines used by some of the best (and worst) games out there? Epic? I hope not, I don't like the Unreal engine as much, and it's as good as it is mostly due to trying to one-up Carmack. The lithtech engine (or whatever they call it now?) Hardly.

And what will id be without their engine? All their games have been fun, but no has been buying them for their gaming aspects, not since Doom. Everyone buys them for the technology, the whiz-bang graphics and engine.

The man revolutionized gaming, and is still probably the biggest contributor to the industry. Retirement leave a lot hanging. Hell, it might lead to a decline of the FPS, much like Flight Simulators went from the dominant genre to all-but-dead (give me Red Baron 3, dammit, and make it decent, with clouds to hide in, not pixels like 2).

Simplifying can be good.

Simplifying at the cost of strategy isn't.


Use keys are crucial. Can you imagine multiplayer without it? Walk to a door and it opens... it's like a world full of grocery stores (don't get me started about what happens if you sell your soul...)

As for crouch, I can deal without it multiplayer, but Doom 3 just seems like the enviroment demands the need to crawl through tight areas and explore.



Carmack has been saying this for a while, and I just think he's totally wrong. Playing Quake makes me feel awkward without those keys. Not to mention that every mod will probably code it in themselves, negating lots of his arguing.

Sometimes the guy just strikes me as clueless to anything outside of technology.

"We will do a new title. It will be a shooter, with a different antagonist and protagonist. ... People who have been working in the company for a long time don't want to continually rehash their old work."

HAAHHAHAHAHAHHA! What the hell have you been doing for the past decade?

Anyhow.. that no use button thing IS very stupid. I cant believe no one has thought of how many problems that would cause.

Message to John Carmack:

The people who play your games are among the hardest of the hard-core as far as gamers go. There is no need to dumb down the gameplay for them, they have been playing your games for quite some time and I'm pretty sure they have a good grip on the controls. People have been playing FPS games for years with 'use' buttons, and they are quite happy with it because it allows them greater freedom to dictate when and where they interact with their environment. It is NOT fun to try to outrun monsters while shooting and run into a switch only to find out your rocket launcher didn't quite clear in time and you just shot a rocket directly into the wall, killing yourself. Any design decision to make the fire button the same button that needs to be used when close to walls or objects is idiotic. Really. We're smart kids, we can figure out how to make a 'use' button work. Thanks.

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For example take Operation Flashpoint, the game's squad interface was so needlessly complicated it detracted from the overall experience.
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I thought the interface was brilliant. You could perform very complex actions with your squad by simply remembering a sequence of two or three numbers to tell them what you want them to do. If you take the time to learn it and remember what numbrs correspond to what menus, you don't even have to look at the menus anymore. I can actually communicate with my troops faster than if I could speak. I don't have to tell my whole squad to get in that truck, I just push 4,1,1. Need your guys to scan the horizon? 3,7. Soon it becomes nothing more than memorizing a particular sequence of numbers. I hope they don't change it too much and add GUIs and all other sorts of useless crap that makes me have to take the time to point and click everywhere. Punching a couple of numbers takes literally only a second or two.

This comment was edited on Aug 22, 15:13.

That's true, but do you think the games industry would be where it is now if everyone made games as simple as Doom 3? Carmack admits to being an arcade fan; I think many modern gamers would disagree with him.

I'm not saying don't innovate, I'm saying include complex innovations just implement them simply. For example take Operation Flashpoint, the game's squad interface was so needlessly complicated it detracted from the overall experience. I'm willing to bet one of the top priorites over at Bohemia Interactive for the sequal is to have an interface that is actually usable. OpFlash was highly innovative it was just implemented in such a complex way that a lot of people were never able to properly enjoy the game.