when you press the commands the menus change so you see exactly what you are doing, you dont have to remember it, but if you've done a command more than once, and you are not an idiot, it shouldn't be too hard to remember it the next time.

How else could you possible command a squad of troops or indivdual trooops at the same time? you select the person or the squad, then you select the general type of command, then you pick the actual command.

Although I though OpFlash to be a far superior game overall I think Ghost Recon handled squad commend much better. You set general AI parameters then you pointed and clicked on a minimap to give fire and movement orders. Ghost Recon in general didn't allow you to perform as many actions as in OpFlash but solely for giving orders underfire the Ghost Recon interface was far superior than OpFlash's. I never felt comfortable enough in OpFlash to get fire and maneuver going, it was simply too cumbersome to do so when underfire. In Ghost Recon however it was the way I played the game: two fire teams that advance in support of one another and when one element makes contact the other maneuvers to flank the enemy. That sort of functionality was much much easier in Ghost Recon than in OpFlash, in fact I was never able to reach that level of functionality in OpFlash. Whie it may have been possible to perform that sort of tactic in OpFlash it was considerably harder to do so than in GR. The reason for this is that Ghost Recon had a simpler interface that accomplished the samething. In many cases simpler is better.

Sorry for the rambling post I'm kinda tired at the moment and am too lazy to write a better post.

Anyone know if you can "lean" in Doom 3 (or even HL2)? Perhaps it was already hashed out above, too many posts to carefully sift thru.

IMO, leaning is one of the best features in fps. It's so much more realistic. Carmack's got me worried that he's anti-leaning as well.

I'm also a big fan of crouching. Again, it's more realistic like many folks above have said many times. Ducking behind crates etc. while reloading, for example is cool, useful and well worth the implementation.

I will be totally bummed if there is no leaning in Doom3. I feel there is a better chance HL2 will have leaning, but I haven't noticed it in any of the vids I have seen thus far.

As far as simplifying goes, I personally am semi-anti inventory stuff. To me that does overcomplicate matters. However, some folks like to fiddle w/ items and stuff, some don't care to. To each their own. But crouching and leaning do not over-complicate, they add realism to character movement, which is very simply and intuitive.

Oh well, I'm buying Doom 3 and HL2 the day they hit stores regardless of their feature lists. hehe.

Take something as simple as picking up a box. If the fire key doubles as a use key, you have no choice about whether to shoot the box or pick up the box. It's either one or the other. Obviously Doom 3 will not allow you to pick up boxes.

If there is no use key, clearly Doom 3 will have a completely static environment; ZERO interaction with the gameworld.

This is not clear to me. Please give me an example of something you can do with a use key that you cannot do with a context-sensitive use feature.

I just wish iD would try something new for once.

Well, I agree with you there, they're certainly due for some kind of innovation, but I'm not sure the Doom franchise is the place to start with radical changes (after all, they can't even change the implementation of the use function without ruffling feathers). Although I don’t expect it to be as rich an experience as Half-life 2, I think it’ll be good visceral fun (I think at this point I just want a non-WW2 shooter :)).

Good points, Rob, but I think many players like to have some control over their game. It may be that Doom 3's design means that a use key is not necessary. But then that raises other questions. If there is no use key, clearly Doom 3 will have a completely static environment; ZERO interaction with the gameworld. And considering that iD's AI has not advanced in 4 years (Carmack has said as much), it seems that Doom 3 will amount to walking down corridors shooting monsters that run straight at you. That doesn't sound like fun to me. And let's not forget the absolute arse load of scripting designed to scare the player. Monsters jump out at you at the same point every time, and so on.

I may be completely wrong, Doom 3 may be the scariest game ever made with great atmosphere, and a must-buy for every shooter fan. But at the moment, I doubt it. It's going to be hard to find an objective review though.

I just wish iD would try something new for once. They have the money, they have the resources, they have the talent, but they won't go beyond these corridor shooters. And now it sounds like even their next game will be Doom in a new environment.

I’m actually quite surprised at the resistance here to the idea of making game interfaces simpler. As a game developer, I try to design an interface that allows the player to experience the game as efficiently as possible. This allows them to not only focus on what’s important in the game, but reduces the learning curve, allowing them to have fun faster. If a control is not necessary, or is not fun, or doesn’t enhance the game in SOME way, then guess what, it’s not a good idea to implement it no matter how little or how much time it takes to implement. Perhaps I’ve missed it though, maybe one of you guys can explain to me how pressing a separate use key has enhanced your game experience, because I’ve never seen it.

Crouching can be argued, it is an added “thing”, not just a key for the sake of a key, but still far from a significantly game enhancing feature, and IMHO hardly worth implementing the way most games implement it (IOW, if it works for leaning and going prone, then it can enhance the game significantly, but only if stealth is a big part of the game). I’ve seen crouching used as a way for me to enter small passages (Ohh, that’s real exciting), improving my aim (control busywork, just as easily accomplished by requiring me not to move while firing), and to make myself a smaller target for machine-gun fire (WOOHOO, now my machine-gun battles take twice as long). Honestly, perhaps I’m missing something here as well, but is it possible that many of you guys simply hate the idea of something being taken away more than the idea of not having it? Would you truly miss it any more than a run key?

Also, these crazy situations you guys talk about where the lack of a use key will “screw” you, it’s just not true. Ok, I suppose theoretically you could decide to run from an enemy, then turn and run towards a keypad, point at said keypad, then, somehow thinking that said keypad is an enemy (could have been a monster masquerading as a keypad, I guess), try to fire at it bringing up an interface for the keypad, and the keypad interface confuses you such that you can no longer react. In the end, if this scenario happened to you then death would have found you soon enough, an extra key would not save you. Remember, pointing at stuff you want to activate would obviously be a requirement (backing into switches is not going to happen) and accidentally activating a “use” interface could easily be aborted with any movement action.

Game developers spend a GREAT deal of time thinking about interfaces, and the good ones don’t fix what ain’t broke. This is NOT LAZINESS, simplicity when well executed is a beautiful thing. Have some faith that they can solve these minor issues, after all, it’s not rocket-science :).

yeah, imagine games like Planetside without a 'use' key or command menu nav keys? It would become a mindless shooter like Doom. No thanks.

"Um ... ever consider not binding weapon switching to the mouse wheel??

Use the numbers. Next weapon/previous weapon is inefficient anyway.'

Thanks Tom.

Creston, there are 2 joysticks, 2 triggers, 8 buttons and one toggle type switch on an x-box controller.

True, but how easy is it to use them? Some of those buttons on some of those controllers are a total bitch to use, so gamers would much rather forego having anything assigned to it, or they will switch the control scheme around until those buttons have little used functions on them.

I'll admit that having a use key or not having a use key isn't going to be a big issue for a console controller, but I think in general, in the PC gaming industry, this is becoming a very nasty trend (ie, simplification of control schemes for consoles' sakes).

So it might not be the reason behind Doom 3, but I'm pretty positive that a lot of control schemes are being fuxx0red for the sake of the consoles.

A good example is Deus Ex. It had a functional control scheme on the PC, which just couldn't be translated to the PSX2. So Warren & Co. came up with a new control scheme for the PSX2, which amazingly enough actually worked just as well, if perhaps not even better, as the PC scheme.

But for Deus Ex : IW, the entire control scheme is being designed with the idea in mind that the game has to go on the consoles, and thus the control scheme is "simplified" (Warren's own words).
This doesn't necessarily mean that it's made worse, and Ion has shown that they can actually MAKE a good, simple, control scheme, but how many companies simplify their control scheme and turn it into the most fucking horrendous piece of crap you've ever played?


On the AI issue, it's sad that Carmack, with all his programming genius, is still not doing any amazing new AI work. Hell, if any game would have been great for a revelation in AI, it would have been Doom 3, since it's going to focus so much on combats vs small numbers of enemies. If all they do is just stumble at you without even dodging, the gameplay is definitely going to go down the drain.
(and yes, I'm well aware that zombies won't necessarily need any spanky AI, but come on, the ArchVile is just SCREAMING for some state of the art AI 733Tness.)

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I don't really have my hopes up...

Creston

Um ... ever consider not binding weapon switching to the mouse wheel??

Use the numbers. Next weapon/previous weapon is inefficient anyway.

I have enough problems in Multi-player games with my intellimouse scroll wheel. It finally decides on it's own to tick over that half scroll and instead of blowing someones head off with a shotgun I end up throwing a smoke grenade in their face :(. Take that you Roman cow!!! You Spanish fly!!! You Turkish taffee!!!

Now with no "use" key I'll be cornered in a room by some guy named "Thresh" and instead of takin' him out with my BFG I'll be flickin' the light switch on and off... on and off... on and off. Take that you Roman cow!!! You Spanish fly!!! You Turkish taffee!!! Dear me...

I assumed all those companies that use the Quake(s)/Doom engine is useful for people who make games? There was an article back that stated that they did some new type of physics with boxes being toppled that would put other engines to a crawl. I can see the mod community like the Half-Life II engine. But for game developers, I can see eye candy sells better. It always has inface. Remember GL Quake and software render Quake? I sure do GLQuake was the ONLY reason for me to even consider playing QuakeWorld CTF. To each their own I guess. Some people love graphics and lifelike realism while some don't.

I wonder if there is actually going to BE any stealth in Doom 3? I mean, shadows are cool and all, but if I crouch down in a shadow, covering myself, is that monster going to walk right by, or will it still find me due to it's Omniscient AI, as happens in 95% of all games?

The monster AI in ID games have 2 states... they either run straight at you while thirsting for your blood, or they run straight at you while um... thirsting for your blood. Or maybe they just want to offer you a great deal on car insurance... I forget. No flushing you out with grenades, or attempts to flank you, or potshots at you from behind cover while their buddies come charging in, etc. Granted, Doom3 is a shooter game, and your opponents are zombies. But I think it's time for something fresh. Don't you?

Wolfenstein included grunts that run at you while shooting.
Quake1... included grunts that run at you while shooting.
Quake2... included grunts that run at you while shooting, occasionally ducking blaster fire. Woohoo! A twist!

Mr. Carmack - you gave us pretty graphics and interactive objects with realistic physics. Now can we have sidekicks that don't empty their railguns and BFG's into a wall or the back of my head?

Please? [rant mode off]


---------------------------------------------
"Sometimes the best way to get rid of the fleas is to just kill the damn cat."

i think johnnie should put crouching and a use key cause they are useful.

• fly boy i will save you


• blue did you jerk off when your wife was gone


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Stupid zar, you should play games for kids.

when you press the commands the menus change so you see exactly what you are doing, you dont have to remember it, but if you've done a command more than once, and you are not an idiot, it shouldn't be too hard to remember it the next time.

How else could you possible command a squad of troops or indivdual trooops at the same time? you select the person or the squad, then you select the general type of command, then you pick the actual command.

any simpler than that and you are left with commanding troops in Unreal 2, which was stupid.

7.62 World Order

"If you take the time to learn it and remember what numbrs correspond to what menus, you don't even have to look at the menus anymore....I don't have to tell my whole squad to get in that truck, I just push 4,1,1."

Surely you jest. It would make a great standup comedy routine or SNL skit. I can hear it now: "Aw c'mon, man! All you gotta do is hit the 4,2,6,1,1,a,Q,~,# combo to tell your buddy to get some ammo! What's your friggin' problem you lazy bastard?!"

That's sounds F---ING HORRIBLE! I'm absolutely certain I don't want to play that game or any game like it. That must be why I don't. It sounds like gaming for Puritans. "Learn your menu commands, you sloth!"

This comment was edited on Aug 22, 20:29.

Creston, there are 2 joysticks, 2 triggers, 8 buttons and one toggle type switch on an x-box controller. I know, I just went and looked at my daughters. I don't really see the problem in having a "use" key on the controller. There are numerous x-box games whose control interfaces are more complex than a typical shooters, even a "stealth" shooter. Adding a couple of menu / choice buttons wouldn't exactly be rocket science for Carmack, no pun intended In short, it's not the hardware causing simplification, although you could argue it's the console gamers themselves...

I wonder if there is actually going to BE any stealth in Doom 3? I mean, shadows are cool and all, but if I crouch down in a shadow, covering myself, is that monster going to walk right by, or will it still find me due to it's Omniscient AI, as happens in 95% of all games?

maybe it has just infrared sight? ;-)
[AvP]

simple is better

tiberius

Personally I think the fire button, which I gather is what is planned now, will make a fairly good use key. When you press it, you are "using" your readied weapon. To perform any other reasonably complex function you should have to put the gun down / away / let it hang on it's strap. A light door could probably be forced open by moving into it if the physics engine does it's thing properly. To do anything else people have to take their finger off the trigger and "use" / focus on other things... those who don't usually regret it

Besides... think about the panic when that demon pops into the room with you and you're busy using a keyboard instead of your shotgun...

*edit* A step forward for "realism" and simplicity at the same time...

This comment was edited on Aug 22, 19:55.

are being dumbed down you know. That reason is console ports, and most specifically Xbox ports. Complicated control schemes won't work on a controller, and most developers just can't be bothered to design two different control schemes. (And while every developer will howl at me for saying this, I see very little other reason than pure simple laziness.)

And so, despite all the developers' assurances to the contrary, they dumb down control schemes / gameplay, simply for benefit of the port to that console, all the while yapping that the PC version will have "significantly enhanced gameplay".
My ass.


Otoh, hey, it's Carmack's game, he can do with it whatever he wants to. If he wants to put an auto aim / auto fire mechanism in it, so that all you have to do is walk around, then nobody will like it, but what gives people the idea that he doesn't have the right to do so?

Personally, in a straight balls to the wall shooter as Doom3 would seem to be, where interaction in a level is limited to opening a door or pushing a button (which opens a door), actually having a use key is redundant and annoying. Far better to just have the thing "use" automatically when you step close to it.
However, I don't think the idea of having fire double as a use key is a great idea, unless it's implemented well. I can already foresee instances where you want to open the door, and launch your final BFG ammo at that button...

It's only in games where there are more ways of interacting, games with stealth, etc, that a use key becomes a necessary addition to your control set. In my opinion.
I wonder if there is actually going to BE any stealth in Doom 3? I mean, shadows are cool and all, but if I crouch down in a shadow, covering myself, is that monster going to walk right by, or will it still find me due to it's Omniscient AI, as happens in 95% of all games?

Creston

This comment was edited on Aug 22, 19:40.