Aren't some of the things you list really better suited for 3rd person? If you can't see yourself diving and rolling what good is it.

There was a recent game, I don't remember which one, where not only did you have a crouch but you had a crawl button as well. Crouch could get you through low spaces but you had to crawl to get through really low ones. So the game gave you a bunch of low spaces and a bunch of really low ones and the only difference in getting through them was what key you pressed. It was obvious the designers were just throwing those in to give you some sort of feeling of variety and "immersion" but what it really was was annoying.

Half Life's long jump and crouch jump are better examples because they simply worked and--for whatever reason--they really did enhance the game. Thief's mantling is even better still because it was way more realistic without being needlessly complicated and micromanagey. You weren't barred from areas of the game because you couldn't jump up past the level of your knees. It's way past time that sort of thing died an ugly, horrible death in modern games but you still see it.

I like picking up an FPS and knowing right away how to control things. But maybe a *couple* new control moves would be nice as long as everything isn't completely changed (this coming from a pretty conservative gamer)
This comment was edited on Aug 23, 12:59.

I'd like to see a revolution in Fps in terms of control. It's really getting old only including jump/duck/lean/prone.. Those are all awesome mind you, but why not add more control to up the amount of skill required to become 'incredible'. I've found that everyone who plays FPS's know the best control methods, and everything has been exploited to the max. Why not add Barrel rolls, hanging from pipes/objects (ala splinter cell), trimping off of walls, diving, and combinations of everything, dive rolling. Obviously there would need to be a system in place to limit excessive usage of these moves, like a stamina bar or such, But come on, i'm really sick of picking up any FPS and knowing everything in terms of control. Give us something new dammit.

I am really gladdened to see many here actually use the term immersion in this thread. Was beginning to think immersion as far as how we interact within the gameworld was all but lost on the quaker community.

IMHO crouch/lean/prone/jump/use etc etc etc... all these should be standard in every game by now. I don`t give a rats azz if some Boy Genius decides he doesn`t feel they are usefull. lol If these things help us immerse deeper into the gameworld(and they do), then make a use for them.
In the end it is about just that, immersing the buyer/playerbase as deep as possible into said gameworld. And immersion isn`t just about what we hear or see, its as well about what we DO, the motions we go thru.

For shooting boxes up close, as opposed to picking them up, I'd definetely recommend Max Payne... seriously, I would.

I really don't mind a simplified layout. One of the biggest turn-offs about T2 was it's massive keyboard mapping. I thought I'd bought a flight sim and would have to buy a second keyboard.

I don't feel, however, that including or excluding a "use" key would make any difference one way or the other.

It will be interesting in multiplayer, with custom maps, to see how various switches and doors will be introduced into the enviroment. Hiding behind a door, waiting to pounce could present a problem.

No use key is a bad idea.

JC is a good engine designer, but has always been a poor games designer, at least from a single-player standpoint. id has not produced a good SP game since the original Doom. That's pretty sad when you think about it.

I have a simple solution to the use key / fire key debate. Simply create an option that allows the player to define a separate use key if he / she so chooses. Let the default be that the fire key doubles as a use key. But for those of us that are uncomfortable with that, allow a separate, optionable, use key. Of course, that won't happen because it makes too much sense.

I if I quote A.Einstein it would fit this perfectly:

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler"

So you can take complex gameplay shematics and make them easy to use then by all means do it, but dont take stuff out just because you're to lasy to code/implement it.

PC is definately not the place for dumbed down gameplay, you're going to quickly end up in budget bin, unless ofcourse you have a well known brand behind your crap(Unreal2).

But I would like the choice of whether to pick it up or shoot it. I don't want the game to decide whether I am allowed to do something. I want to play the game my way, not necessarily how the developers want me to play. Taking power away from the player is poor design, in my opinion, and Doom 3 is taking it to extremes.

If you must shoot boxes at close range, then perhaps Doom 3 is not your thing, but I doubt most people would find taking away their power to shoot usable items at close range to be extreme, and I certainly wouldn't call it bad game design. Keep in mind, like anything else it can be poorly implemented and suck, but we'll have to wait for that judgment.

If that door doesn't open until I click on that use key to open it, it makes me feel more "there". More actually IN the game world.

Well, for me it makes perfect sense for me to push a button with my right forefinger as well as pull a trigger, and I think that few people would truly have their immersion level damaged by doing the same. Also, many people feel themselves pulled out of a game if they have to look for an extraneous action keys. In the end, pressing the key with the left hand or the right seems a bit like an apples vs. oranges argument to me. Remember, you're still activating the button, just using the same finger you fire with.

Without the crouch button, or the use button, how would that ever have worked?

Your scenario would have worked fine with a context-sensitive use, but without crouch, then yea, you'd have to hide in shadows or behind something taller like filing cabinets. If the game takes advantage of stealth elements, then duck/sneak can obviously be cool, but only worthwhile if executed better than most games. They obviously want to focus efforts on combat and mood.

Remove that use key, and I can no longer do that, except for those areas where you approve of me doing it.

Actually, no, you're still only activating the computers the game developer let you activate. You could still walk around and look at the monitors and get the same thing, just without tapping your finger and with more precision, since you can just watch for the gun/interface change rather than wondering if you hit the button fast enough while sliding past potential collision testers.

Take away crouch, jump, run (run needs to have an impact on the monster AI, obviously, otherwise it doesn't matter. See Unreal 2), and use, and you're taking away my decisions in your game

Well, I'm of course not suggesting getting rid of jumping, that's a fun thing. As stated several times, use ability would still be there, just without the extra key. Crouch is just not useful in a Doom style (what I'm imagining it's style to be) type of game, and other more enjoyable things could take it's place (for instance, a single shot manual pickup use, like stim-paks or something). Tribes for instance traded their crouch for a jetpack, and I seriously doubt even those that don't like Tribes would call that a bad move. Remember, most people have a limited number of fingers, you have to use your keys wisely or you appeal only to those mutants with 14 fingers, and that slightly limits your market.

Granted, but where does the beautiful thing turn into a too simplistic, beautiful thing?

Ahh, now that's the tricky part. The answer is never, or immediately, or somewhere in-between (IOW, it's totally subjective). In the end it's up to the game designer to decide, and the players then decide if the game designer made the right choice. Doom3 may not be adding all the deeper elements that other shooters might be implimenting, but I'll still be happy if what they do end up with is fun, I'm pretty easy to please that way.

Actually, you lose the ability to shot the box at point-blank range, which is not much of a loss for me. In the end, if they want good crate/small object manipulation, a half-life 2 style manipulator is a better choice anyway.

But I would like the choice of whether to pick it up or shoot it. I don't want the game to decide whether I am allowed to do something. I want to play the game my way, not necessarily how the developers want me to play. Taking power away from the player is poor design, in my opinion, and Doom 3 is taking it to extremes.

Squirmer,

Take something as simple as picking up a box. If the fire key doubles as a use key, you have no choice about whether to shoot the box or pick up the box. It's either one or the other. Obviously Doom 3 will not allow you to pick up boxes.

You can pick up the box using the fire button too! Just move right up to the box, place your cursor over the box, wait for 1-2 seconds, then your weapon will automatically be lowered, allowing you to pick up the box. You may even adjust the duration you have to place your cursor over the box for the weapon to be lowered. Under all other circumstances, pressing your fire button will fire your weapon (doh!).

This sound very plausible to me, and DOOM 3 will probably have this kind of interaction. After all, you need time to pick up an object, unlike in every other game on the market, in which pressing a separate use key allows instantaneous acquisition of an object without even moving your arms!

Take something as simple as picking up a box. If the fire key doubles as a use key, you have no choice about whether to shoot the box or pick up the box. It's either one or the other. Obviously Doom 3 will not allow you to pick up boxes.

Actually, you lose the ability to shot the box at point-blank range, which is not much of a loss for me. In the end, if they want good crate/small object manipulation, a half-life 2 style manipulator is a better choice anyway.

looky, Fred can spell "PENIS" with smileys. You don't have to hide it buddy. This is a place where doom folks and hl folks get along in harmony; a site where ATI and nVidia cards are seen as equals. I'm sure everyone here agrees that if you want to smoke the meat pipe, we won't judge.

Some very good points Rob, let me address a few of them though.


I’m actually quite surprised at the resistance here to the idea of making game interfaces simpler

I don't have a problem with making the interface simpler, in fact, I applaud this, as long as the amount of activities at your command stay the same. If you have 20 possible actions in a game, in an interface with 20 different buttons, and you can turn that into 20 actions in a 10 button interface, without sacrificing speed of play, then you have done a great job, and I applaud it.
If, however, in toning down that interface to 10 buttons you lose 5 of the actions, and turn 5 more into "at certain areas only" actions, you've stripped me of immersiveness.

maybe one of you guys can explain to me how pressing a separate use key has enhanced your game experience, because I’ve never seen it.

It's all a part of immersiveness. If that door doesn't open until I click on that use key to open it, it makes me feel more "there". More actually IN the game world. Same with being able to crouch, or being able to lean around corners, or being able to JUMP over something as small as a book or a chair. So many games forego the ability to jump, and then you are stuck behind a book lying on the floor. Shit like this immediately crushes any immersiveness in a game, and quite frankly, any game that suffers from that should get docked 50% on its review score.
A similar complaint of mine is games where developers use a rope or chain barrier to stop you from going somewhere. Like you can't just duck under the rope or the chain, or step over it. (or even worse, the invisible wall in an open area, that prevents you from going one step further in a totally open area. Unreal 2 was a total bitch in this regard, absolutely pathetic level design in the very first level.)

It all boils down to immersiveness. If I play your game, you have to make me forget that I am playing a game. If you can manage to do so, you've done your job well.
So, with a use key, while a door could be forgiven (since we do have automatic doors in our world), I DON'T want that button to be pushed unless I push it. Call it strange, but I like that kind of stuff in a game. Give me jumping, crouching and leaning, and even though I might never use it in any gunfight in the game, the simple fact that it's there will improve your game tremendously in my mind.

and to make myself a smaller target for machine-gun fire (WOOHOO, now my machine-gun battles take twice as long)
Would you truly miss it any more than a run key?

Obviously, there would have to be some form of benefit to crouching. The enforced crouching such as seen in Elite Force 2, for example, where you have to crouch to get through crawlspaces, I can do without. However, to give an example, in Deus Ex, I managed to stay hidden, crouched behind a table, while manipulating the remote viewer for a camera in the other corner of the room, which allowed me to move slightly as guards walked to and fro trying to find where I was. This is, in my opinion, still one of the most defining moments of gaming EVER. Because I am sure that nobody had ever tested it that way, and had never foreseen it, and there I was, and I could do it.
Without the crouch button, or the use button, how would that ever have worked?

Taking stuff away simply for the expediency of taking stuff away doesn't do games any good either. Every action you take out of the player's hand reducing the interactivity and the immersiveness into your game world. And where does it end? Take away the run key, every has auto run on anyways. Take away the crouch key, who cares about trying to make himself smaller to enemy fire (I do, btw). Take away the use key, we'll just do auto-use.
What's next? Take away the fire key? If I see a target, the game will auto fire for me? Hell, we've already got auto-aim, might as well go one step further. We could make it even easier, and put the player on a rail, that way we don't have to worry about him trying to jump on that crate (oh I forgot, we already took the jump button out), and then on that wall, and skipping part of our level.

I like playing games, Rob, I don't like watching demos.

Alright, it's a bit exxagerated, but I think you can see my point. NOT having a jump function in any game nowadays is absolutely unforgivable. Hell, you always put the damn crates in the game, why can't I jump on top of them? Crouching behind a crate, then jumping on top of it and off it while shooting the bad guy through the head is a hell of a lot MORE FUN than just standing there, holding down fire, waiting for him to fall.

Take away crouch, jump, run (run needs to have an impact on the monster AI, obviously, otherwise it doesn't matter. See Unreal 2), and use, and you're taking away my decisions in your game, you take away MY ability to do something when I want to do it, and limit it to those areas where only YOU want me to do something.

In plenty of games I'll just click / use pretty much every computer I come across. 99% of them don't do anything, but hey, every now and then some funny easter egg comes up, and it's a fun part of the game. It's a part of exploration. Remove that use key, and I can no longer do that, except for those areas where you approve of me doing it.


Game developers spend a GREAT deal of time thinking about interfaces, and the good ones don’t fix what ain’t broke. This is NOT LAZINESS, simplicity when well executed is a beautiful thing.

Granted, but where does the beautiful thing turn into a too simplistic, beautiful thing? And honestly, what else should we call it if developers, after ten years of struggling to add interactivity to games, all of a sudden feel that a return to the good old days of Robin To The Rescue and Zaxxon (C64, for all Ye Olde Gamers out there) is the next best thing to powdered soup?

I want MORE stuff to do in my games, not less, dammit!

Creston