but Valve proved to us that Plot is king

I'm not going to jump on the whole "Half Life 2 rules / No it suxx0rs Doom 3 rules" bandwagon, but I really wish people would look BEYOND half life when they talk about plot.

Because, really, what plot did Half Life have? Bunch of scientists open up a portal to another world by mistake, aliens come through and kill the scientists. Player kills the aliens and goes through to close the portal.

Oh yeah, move over Tom Clancy, New York Times Bestseller right here...

I mean, come on. If you want to be really cynical about it, Half Life's plot sounded a lot like the plot from the original Doom if you ask me, and nobody ever heralded that as "The King of Plots".

And there have been quite a few games out since then that have had plots that were approximately a hundred times better than Half Life's.

If you REALLY want to make a statement like that, you should say "And Warren Spector proved to us that Plot is king"

Creston

Edit : I see people already argued the same point earlier in the thread. Sorry, I usually never read through a whole thread before replying to something I see.
But the whole Half Life = Awesome story thing is a pet pieve of mine anyways.

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 16:18.

The graphics were shit at the time... if you looked in any arcade, arcade graphics were ahead of half life by a long shot. Half life was totally fun, but I disagree it showed us for the first time what immersion scripted story events can create, RPGs have been doing that since their inception. Half life basically took the story telling model from RPGs and put it into a FPS, and with great effect in my opinion. Max payne did the same thing, but used, in my opinion, gameplay to keep you attached for long enough for the story to get interesting. Though it was a pretty lame story, and good but not over the top graphics, the revenge you wish to exact is compelling enough that most people even hashed their way through those god awful maze levels just to fuck up that bitch who made all that valkyr in the first place.

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 16:14.

Half Life was an awesome game back in the day! I loved it! Even the way they started you out on the tram riding into the base was something I didn't expect. But, from a tech view the game was average due to the limits of the Quake engine it was using.

I hated how you could see the helecopters fly and vanish through those cheesy skyboxes. Even Gabe mentioned how the outdoor levels were kind of an embarassment. I don't think he'll be feeling the same with HL2! That's for sure. One thing your dead on about, if Half Life didn't invent scripted sequences, they sure did show off the immersion value of what can be done with them. That and the Marine AI.


-Tony!!!;)

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 15:47.

I also don't remeber the graphics being 'shitty' either, defintiely they were above average at the time of release.

I *do* remeber multiplayer being unplayable, even on a T1 at work afterhours, for the first couple versions.

There aren't that many games out right now that sport "rag doll". It still is a very new feature. I mean, we have UT 2k3. Ummm, Ureal 2 I wouldn't really count in there. They really cheaped out in the physics department. Hmmmm. What other games are out that sport this feature? You see. It's not quite 'standard' yet. Just like DX 9 isn't 'standard' yet. Yea, it's there, but it's not here.

Next, you'll say. "Phaw, 'rag doll', 'real time lighting', 'true dolby 5.1 sound', if these are the only features they can bring to the table they should just pack up and go home!" LOL


Besides, why the negative outlook on it?? Really. Most of us here actually LIKE to read up on details of upcomming games and then talk about it. True, there is another type of person that fits a different catagory, but I wish sometimes that that breed would just stay under the bridge.

-Tony!!!;)

eunichron,

I don't know what year you finally got around to playing Half Life, but is was far from "par" when it was brand new. There was nothing around that could touch it. This might help explain why it won so many awards back then. Not only that, but most modern shooters are using gameplay techniques that were pioneered in HL1. Wow... the wonders never cease.

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 15:31.

RagDoll:

I don't want to hear that games have "rag doll" any more. It should be considered a standard feature at this point, and nothing to brag about. If that's one of the main things your engine has to brag about, you should consider not releasing your game.

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 15:28.

That's what made Half-Life for everybody, was the emotional attachment/interpertation of the story.

Not for me. What made Half-Life for me was Counter-Strike and Day of Defeat. I always thought Half-Life was merely a par single player experience (although told in a new and cool way), that was just lucky enough to get some of the best multiplayer mods this side of the Milky Way.

However, Half-Life 2 to me actually looks like it will be what everyone made Half-Life out to be.
This comment was edited on Aug 14, 15:22.

"Valve proved to us that Plot is king.. graphics merely enhance this"
uh... nooo they didn't prove graphics just enhance, and can't make games; they were using an old engine so they couldn't, at all, concentrate on graphics. All that was left was plot, and they took the unique (fps wise, anyway; rpgs have done this for years) approach of telling the story as you played via NPCs, radios, or whatever. They proved that without good graphics, one could put one hell of a copied, cliche, all too boring story in, tell the story through events you participate in (no matter how scripted), and draw a player emotionally into the game. That's what made Half-Life for everybody, was the emotional attachment/interpertation of the story. A good example is how much fun I/we/everyone had dealing with the military in Half-Life... those guys were (due to x-files-type stigma) not just mindless enemies, they had the emotional connotation of evil, and thus we all loved killing their hapless asses. Doom, for me, utilised fear to get you into the game, and the simple aspect of survival made that an engrossing game, too.
If you take a look at the doom 3 alpha, simply because of the lights/dark spaces, shadows, glares, blood effects when you get hit which match the attacks, and especially the convincing sounds and realistic animation (feet stick to floor = good), it, even with no story and not one complete level, draws you into the experience emotionally. For that fact alone, doom 3 in my opinion will be good. If they include a story told by the events of the game; events YOU are a part of, doom 3 will show you the power of rock and roll.
So, Half Life, despite it's shit graphics, shitty story, and fairly ho-hum gameplay, kicked ass due to the emotional grip it got on you. Where that emotional grip comes from is irrelevant, and the graphics/sound in doom 3 will certainly provide that grip. Even with no story, you will want to keep playing, just because it invokes an emotional response. Plot isn't king, it is an enhancing factor in a game, but if it can grab your emotions, it can appear to be the most important thing. It seems like it is the "king" because we have never been offered a game which visually evoked a real emotional response; that will soon change.

>> But what made Half-Life different was the way you were told the story. <<

Point taken. Even though the story wasn't much more complex or innovative, it was more told in character. I did really enjoy going into the lab, and then suddenly everything going wrong... and trying to get out of there, ducking laser beams and what not. It seems like HL2 is continuing that tradition, at least, as seein in the videos.

You have never seen a grenade in action have you? It does tear the body in pieces. I've seen photographs of what it does to people when you get hit by a grenade.

See. Doom III is such a resource hog that just to host articles about it all the websites need an upgrade

Has the Homelan article been pulled as well??
I can't get into the MF. It might just be due to traffic I spose.

Hope its not been pulled. Homelan seem to work pretty hard for their exclusives so I'd say they deserve to get this instead of Eurogamer.

>"I still don't know why people say Half Life had a "riveting plot." Come on. It was Doom regurgitated"

True, the plot wasn't particularly original...

But what made Half-Life different was the way you were told the story. In DOOM, you just knew before-hand the general plot and the only story delivered to you was "DESTROY ALL MONSTERS AND GET THE HECK OUTTA HELL".

However, in HL, you learned what was happening from scientists and security gaurds that were still alive. They'd fill you in on current events (what would the gov do in bla bla situation, or if guys were on the way). It conveyed that there were people other than you in the game (even though they were scripted NPC's).

And that is the difference. Heck, even in movies; the plot is only part of the experience. A truly good movie will do a good job at deliverying the plot (as cheesey as it may be).

This comment was edited on Aug 14, 14:13.

hence my wish for body part/rag effects for grenades and RLs.

Getting hit from a modern day (hand)grenade won't do anything close to gibbing. At most you might lose a limb...

Gamers brought up with older shooters seem to believe that explosive power disintigrates the body, resulting in gibbing. Rather, explosives kill by either shrapnel, the force caused by the rapid expansion of heated gas or the heat itself. Only the pressure has a chance to gib someone, and it is much more likely that the force will blow someone in a single direction than in different directions (tearing them apart).

Another misconception is that of the firey explosion. Aside from those caused by fuel ignition, explosions tend to be extremely fast, little more than a flash, leaving behind a cloud of smoke.

Gamespy has 2 new multiplayer screenshots from Doom 3:

http://www.gamespy.com/quakecon2003/doom3mp/

I still don't know why people say Half Life had a "riveting plot." Come on. It was Doom regurgitated - Aliens invade, kill, make zombies, guy shoots them all up. The only "plot" twist were the soldiers shooting people instead of saving them. Later add-ons to the game brought some more personal stories of other characters and hints at a metaplot, but HL1 didn't have anything near riveting in the plot range. And I still played it through three times.

The riveting part about HL1 were the AI of the marines, and the innovative levels (such as the tentacle monster in the missile silo). I have seen proof of neither good AI nor innovative levels in either D3 nor HL2. Although, HL2 has the innovative feature of controlling some aliens.

If the Combine soldiers in HL2 are less well done AI-wise than the marines in HL1, despite all other improvements, I'll be heavily disappointed.

#23: I appreciate your exactness. But in HL you will kill 100X as many aliens and people with grenades and RLs than with barrels. I want to throw grenades and blow aliens and people apart. HL was just an example. D3 is a scifi game, and should live up to an ultra-violence motif - even if it means creeping around before you hammer someone with a RL. Keep it real if you want - in real life grenades and RPGs blow people apart - as well as ragdoll and toss them 25 feet.

I'm all for that. In HL 1 there was a certain satisfaction that came from killing a foe with enough force that it would gib instead of just keel over.